Overzealous Security and Rude Landowners

Who's the misguided ranter who refuses to give a little space from their side?

Jonas, please do me a huge favor and add me to your parcel banlist right now. I don't ever want to fly into your place by mistake and invade your "privacy". This way, i'll see a red wall and not fly into your land, thereby activating your almost zero warning security system and getting ejected. Everyone's happy. HEY, heres an idea, this is what the "Only allow.." whitelist is for. Those you want in can come in, those that can't get the red wall.

I guess it all comes down to how you define greifing. Some people would define it as a failure to lend them L$ whenever they want. Some don't even know what it means.

I define it as being a jerk, plain and simple. Asserting your rights over the needs of the many comes under that heading. So does not giving people enough warning before you TP them home, or eject them, or whatever.

Your rights STOP where other people's rights BEGIN.

If you put an eyesore on your land (hot pink rotating particle emitting house of DOOM!), you do not have the right to do that, as you are impugning on my right to have a decent view, have a somewhat decent framerate, etc.

IRL there are laws to prevent this. But this isnt IRL.

Why do you think people hate the bush guy? Becuase he was being a jerk, creating eyesores and using extortion to get rich from it. Not because he violated the TOS at any time.

Guess what. Over my house (my real house) once sat an blimp. For like 20 minutes it hovered there and made this wurrrrrr sound. So I did what any sensable person would do and ejected it....no wait nevermind. I realized there was such a thing called airspace, and at some point over my property becomes public airspace.

Now you're just confusing the issue. No one's saying they want to build on other's land or be able to do whatever they want wherever they want regardless of the landowner.

People are saying they just want to be able to manuever around the grid without being hit with these scripts.

You confuse "belongs to all" with "belongs to nobody".

You're more than free to build a skybox at 700m above my land - in fact anywhere on my land - but you'll find after 5 minutes my autoreturn kicks in and removes it.

Big difference between building a permanent structure, and just flying over something.

Lewis

Which is why LL need to start introducing some form of building guidelines and control, otherwise the situation is just going to get worse and worse.

Someone's crappy build or overactive security system may be "my" problem, but quitting SL and removing my contribution towards LL's bank account becomes "their" problem.

I've been here a few months and I've come to terms with the fact that most SL residents tend to be selfish with no concept of thinking about their neighbours, or building with any thought as to making it aesthetically pleasing. Newbies greeted with their first couple of days of playing to find themselves being thrown all over the grid by security systems they didn't even know about (quite possibly putting it down to a game bug) may well decide that SL isn't worth playing even for free, let alone actually stumping up some cash to own some land.

Even in the short time I've been here, things have got worse.

Lewis

Hey Lewis Nerd,

How much land you own? Just curious.

What, you are asserting property rights? I thought you did not believe in those?

Jonas paid for that parcel. He bought it. He pays tier on it. It is his, and it extends to 768m. If you put objects at 700m over his land in your so-called "public airspace" they will count against his prim allocation. So he is entirely within his rights to ban you from entering, flying, walking, swimming or anything else he wants to do.

Linden Lab has posted here on several occasions that Jonas is perfectly within his rights to Eject you and send you home.

If I buy a mainland parcel, I will be well within my rights to put security orbs in with 6 second warnings and blast you away if I so wish.

1) but 6 seconds (which seems to be the default of a certain security system) is extremely rude. With lag (which we can't predict either) 6 seconds is abuse.

2) Not knowing what is "restricted airspace" is very unconvenient for flying.

3) If you must toss me, please toss my helicopter (or anything I'm riding/flying) back to me as well. Last week while I was out flying my helicopter and crossing a very laggy patch, I was tossed without warning. (It may have been even the situation in this Linden post /108/bd/118610/1.html#post1127653 which I guarantee was not greifing on purpose).

4) Although I don't feel the same need, I understand your need for privacy for whatever, whether you are logged in or not.

5) Linden has promoted the idea that 0 to forever on your land belongs to you. Those that believe that 0 to forever belongs to them aren't going to let you cross their parcel. Give it up, you aren't going to change anyone's mind on this.

I, for one am mildly amused by the stuff that happens on property that I pay real money for. You can build anything you want, but I reserve the right to return said property to you. You can use any pose balls found on my PG property (note to the curious...there are none...).

Therefore:

Really, what we need is a restricted airspace indicator and a written rule that non restricted airspace (say 150 m to 800 m above the ground) is public property for flying (assisted or not). It has to be a set altitude across the board otherwise we'll end up with patchwork airspace and be worse off than we are now.

Those that really can't allow peeps to cross their land for whatever reason, should apply for a resticted airspace with 512 sq. m. being the minimum you can have such a space.

Anyway, these are my rambling thoughts - Ham

There is a difference in a transiant object like an airship, and a perminant object like a building. If I am flying over I am not counting aginst his prims. I can deal with the "I own the land and the space above it all the way to the moon" logic I guess. I would just like a reasonable 15 second delay in the unsit, eject, tp home (when called from a script) so I can make an effort to respect that the person doesn't want visitors and get out of there.

What I would suggest is this:

The problem with security systems and ban lines is that they break up the continuity of the mainland, which is after all the point of that land being mainland instead of a bunch of tiny little island.

My suggestion: alter ban lines so that, when you hit them, instead of bouncing off, you get teleported to the other side of the parcel in the direction you were going. You could even show an animation of the avatar/vehicle flying through the "banned" land to the other side, but during that period you can't stop, interact with or hear or say anything (in fact, the animation would probably just be a client side camera movement effect, with the server reporting you as being on the other side of the land throughout).

That way, you can still fly around, and you can't block your neighbours, but you won't be disturbed.

LL needs to do no such thing.

The ToS is clear enough.

Censor yourself if you like, form a neighborhood association if you want a certain standard or theme of building.

But more global content censorship rules and 'guidelines' is beyond the scope of what LL can enforce fairly and objectively, which means it will become a ceasely source of whining over unfair censorship.

We've got enough whining already.

Buy your own fracking island like my group did and we have 100 percent privacy.
Fracking Jerks like you have destroyed my "wonder" of second life for me. I use to love to Fly, explore and discover new things. Find new shops and buy stuff. Now I am always very careful to the point of parinoia about entering a new area. I hate getting security warnings and hate getting hit by push attacks on public land (Linden Land).

Currently 4500 sq m ish, with plans to go up to a full island in just a couple of months, finances willing.

Lewis

Actually, they are not the exact same problem. Close cousins for sure, but not identical twins. I've had problems with griefers on my land, but I've also made friends with newbies who have wandered into my house out of ignorance without any intention to cause any harm. Any security system, whether it is from LL directly or indirectly (ie- made by players with the tools given to us by LL) will be imperfect. Some griefers will get around them, and innocents will lose the right to travel freely.

If both sides of this debate could see that both viewpoints present legitimate issues and that extreme solutions either way won't work, something productive might actually arise out of these discussions.

The best thing you can do is collect all of the names of the privacy jerks and add them to the ban list on your property. (It is your property so they can not complain) Also add the names of residents who have "white" lists. Your ban beats their ban hands down!

There was some productive discussion way back at the begining of this shindig ( see /108/bd/119390/2.html#post1132859 ).

I'm one of those horrid capitalists, but I could live with something like that, in moderation of course. If it were up to me, I'd base guideline control on continents. Have a PG continent, another where LL has a stronger police force to to proect newbies. Yet another where zoning rules are used and enforced, and yet another where its a free for all.

Everyone would have what they want, different lands would have their own unique flavor, and maybe with a little luck, the coms and yangs would make peace.

I don’t think that message was "productive". These jerks just like to harass people because they can.

I don’t see how anything can be done without the help of Linden Labs. Hoping, wishing residents not to be the hopeless insensitive jerks is not going to do any good. This is "Barney" type of hopeful appeasement thinking that leads to war. Wish I could employ a Charm (compact high-speed anti radiation missile) to clear my flight path of these jerks. I might just be able to use the aircraft I bought from the jet girl again. I am not able to fly because of these residents.

Security orbs need to be made against the TOS and ban lines need to go to the limit of building for all. Also ban lists need to be able to have more names.

I have always had the policy that the only people I ban are the real jerks who actually come to bug me in-game. Although one or two particularly obnoxious forum trolls are on that list, it is in fact very short.

I figure out that if they want to come and bug me for no other reason than they take a dislike to something I posted on the forum, then their traffic is as good as anyone else's.

It's not like they can actually do anything to me, is it? I can still AR them though, of course.

Lewis

I watched that Star Trek episode a couple of weeks back... but anyway.

This is partly why I'm looking to build this island idea of mine. 65536 sq m may not necessarily be the biggest continent on the SL map but it's going to be all mine, and most definitely access all except those I specifically ban because they don't deserve to enjoy something that I have spent my talent and money building.

I've just spent an hour and a half laying out all the road network pieces from my paper plan to make sure they all fitted together properly. They did, and within 15 minutes I had about a dozen people that had turned up with their vehicles playing around, driving and getting speeding tickets and having a jolly old time.

OK, so it's all gone now because of the 2 hour autoreturn... but it goes to show that even "my world, my imagination" can be popular. I look forward to finishing off the plan but whilst it can only exist for an hour or 2, I can't do everything yet.

Lewis

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Correct me if I'm wrong, which is likely, but ban lines go up to 768m, which is also the highest point you can send a prim to... correct?

I was under the impression that they're making ban lines lower again, except for people actually named in the list.

Yes, they are. Blacklists still extend up to 768m but whitelists are being reduced to the standard height IIRC.

Second Life 1.10.5 release on Wednesday, June 28th, 2006
* Residents explicitly banned from a land parcel cannot fly in that parcel's airspace, to a height of 768m
** Residents not explicitly banned, but not on the access list, can fly over the parcel at an altitude greater than 50m

Ah, understood then.