Overzealous Security and Rude Landowners

*sets out chairs*

*sets out multiple trays of pies, cakes, cookies, and other goodies*

*clears his throat*

Ahem. This is a rant post. Should you not like rant posts, please do not read it, do not vote on the poll, and have a nice day.

Anyways, i'm playing around with a spaceship of mine today, fly around for a while, i see a large group of people gathered in an area and wonder whats up. (Usually it ends up being a tringo match or something).

So i hit the transporter (Drops a ring down to the surface that you can use later to go back up to your ship), and get stuck in the edge of this person's house.

I'm trying to sort my camera out since it's bouncing madly between the inside and outside of the house, while simultaenously trying to find the transport ring so i can get out of this mess.

THEN, i get a dialog and a message from a security ball saying that i will be ejected in 6 seconds if i don't leave. Which fails to work, because the land i was on was group land, and the security orb apparently wasnt grouped from the many error messages i see on my screen.

All of a sudden, _____ comes up to me and they're like "wtf r u doin in my house?" (thats a direct quote, btw.)

So i'm fighting with 3 things at once, i manage to bang out a message apologizing for the intrusion while trying to fight my client back into shape, and i suddenly get teleported home.

About a minute later, my transporter ring gets returned.

About another minute after that, my ship gets returned, UNLINKED .

Nevermind the fact that i'm in a zoned rental sim that dictates all security devices must be set to 30 second or greater delays.

So i IM this person nicely, again apologizing for popping up like i did, and tell them that if you want your security system to work, you need to set it to group and up the delay while your at it or the landlord may get annoyed.

No response.

If the orb had indeed orbited me like it was trying to do, i'd have taken great pleasure in AR'ing this person.

Personally, i can deal with the occasional vehicle crashing into my house. It happens, i've had some funny conversations that way

So how about you? How do you feel about security objects?

I understand people want the illusion of privacy. But scripts that send me flying or TP me home just piss me off.......and serve no real purpose.

And while I haven't been 'sent home' in a very long time, I have in the past, and will in the future, AR those types of home security devices.

Happened to me today as well. Downright unfriendly. And 6 seconds? My ass, it was more like 2 before I was teleported home. Though I am against anything affecting the motion of my avatar, I imagine I would be able to handle a gentle push backwards when I tried to enter the property, if it was after a reasonable length of time (6 seconds is ridiculous) providing it did not interfere with anything I was carrying/wearing/riding. But this thing teleported me home when I had been randomly exploring and finding some cool things. I don't know where I was, and because of this asshat, I may never find my way back. These security systems are ruining things for the person's neighbours as well, especially if the neighbours have shops. I would be right pissed off if I had a shop next to one of these people and potential customers who happened to cut across their lawn are teleported home with little warning, never to find me again. I think the teleportation should constitute as abuse.

I voted for... Security devices are ok if the delay is high enough. Otherwise, its a type of greifing.

If I really felt a need to set something like this up, I'd have to have a pretty good reason, like maybe dealing with daily harrassment not just the mild annoyance of drop in visitors at the wrong times.

There needs to be considerations taken:
* Give someone enough time to escape if they're in a vehicle to avoid damaging their property.
* Simply don't use anything that blocks entry to someone's place of business.
* Talk to your neighbors, make sure you're not blocking them or their friends out of their own property.

If you don't do these things then you shouldn't be surprised when you get ARed or simply despised by your neighbors.

As for what happened to you Tsukasa, once you explained and said you were trying, that device should have been shut off. Had they given you a moment to handle it yourself they might have at least found themselves enjoying an amusing moment laughing with a stranger or at best even made a new aquaintance. Consider it their loss.

And sorry about your vehicle hope you were able to fix it.

Out of curiosity, do you agree with the teleport home even after a reasonable length of time? If it was not for the teleport, I may have picked this option as well.

I dunno, though.. there are times when I am building on my own land that I wander about a foot onto my good neighbour's land. If he had a security device, it would severely impede my freedom of movement when building.

I think I am sticking to zero tolerance for these things.

Thats a good question. Again I think talking to your neighbors is key. I've never used devices like this but can't allowed names be added to prevent certain people from being pushed away? If your neighbor had one, the nice thing for him to do would be to add your name to an allowed list.

As for being teleported home.... I really think thats only necessary in the case of someone who completely and obviously ignores repeated warnings. It's when people set them to ridiculously quick times it's just wrong. But if someone is given say one full minute and told several times "Warning the security is about to kick, now is your chance to step away and be ok."... maybe thats more fair? I don't know.

I don't really see the point in using these things on land you own. If you're there you can eject a griefer yourself. If you're not there, well then it's not too likely a griefer will be either unless he likes annoying empty space. And if you're just randomly ejecting anyone, you never know what nice people you're missing out on meeting. If it's about privacy, well I've seen mention of other methods on the forums for that that sounded like something that could be done simply enough. (something about asking LL for the ability to make a space of land invisible if I remember right)

Why would potential customers be cutting across anyone else's property? If the owner of the business had listed their coordinates in their classified listing, people can use FIND, then hit the tp button and land EXACTLY where the owner wants them to land. (I haven't paid for a CLASSIFIED listing recently, since I can't log in until I upgrade the computer I'm using, but when I was logging in, I paid every week for a CLASSIFIED ad, and set a tp point for it.)

Randomly wandering around. I like to explore the world without teleporting everywhere, and there were definitely some shops in the area from which I was ejected. I never got the chance to explore them all, so the security device indeed cost the neighbour a potential sale.

I wanted to pick *both* "they can do anything they want" and "low delays are griefing". 'Cause both are true. Griefers on other people's land should be sanctioned. People who regard the simple presence of visitors as cause for what would get them warned, suspended and then banned anyplace else are within whatever "rights" virtual land conveys. So I picked the "form of griefing" option. It's the "legal" form of griefing. Doesn't make me think any more highly of the perpetrators, or the people who build their tools.

People want privacy. Lets give 'em real privacy that doesn't make messes for those around them:

I agree that "real" privacy is the only solution to problems like this. Personally, I'm in favor of allowing users to "dig" "private" rooms under thier parcel at different levels each beyond max rendering + camera range. Keeps the skys clean and SL landscape traverseable and pretty. And the skies open, especially if prim allocation is being used underground. I forget which prop it is, but I like it lots. Would also reduce lag by lessening prims within view.

It would have to come coupled with llteleportAgent which I've heard is on the back burner until the awesomeness that are the new groups comes fully to pass.

So if someone flies over the area not knowing anything is there, their vehicle is suddenly and without warning returned to their inventory and they drop out of the sky?

If you really want privacy, and not to be bothered by anyone else in SL.... just log off, for crying out loud. Stop enforcing your paranoia on every other player, and griefing them by sending them away from places they aren't even aware they shouldn't be... especially when you aren't even there!

We do not need "more privacy tools". We need people to realise the nature of Second Life, and that its whole reason for existance is to interact in some way with others (be it in a social capacity, or through commerce). After all, this talk about SL being "the future of the internet" and all that, what's the point of spending months making a website that's password protected and nobody else can access except you? You might as well just put it on your own hard drive and save the costs of hosting it.

Lewis

People can be asses about this sort of thing I feel. Occasionaly, I shut of access if there's a lot of non-residents flying around and we really don't want to be disturbed... but I hate doing it, and I'm as sparing as possible with it. Usually I have the minimap open instead, I'd rather just eject if I had to. That hasn't been necessary ever so far. If you're just flying through, I don't care. I keep meaning to section off just the part that has my house on it, so it's minimal if I use it, and just so they don't inadvertantly end up in our laps. I wouldn't use an actual device, I just don't see the need. And if I'm not on, it is always open. My parcel's too big to totally shut off I feel.

I know some people don't like people wandering into their house when they're not home... but a lockable door is enough. Whether you have access off or not, if a person really wants to look, the camera will take them where their avatar won't. The land next to my partner's has access off full time, on a 1024... and it's irritating just because the red lines are intrusive when on her land. (Mind you, they're pretty inconsiderate anyway I feel, half their treehouse is extending over her property, and just metres over her build). It's laughable though, I could stand on her land and look in anyway (not that I care too, I'm just not that curious). On a plot that size though, you are just deluding yourself if you're thinking you're gaining any privacy.

Yesterday though, I went to have a look at someone's shop, after reading one of their posts, it sounded like they had some nice stuff there. I TPed and their shop was surrounded by red lines... on empty parcels. Why would you shut off an empty parcel? Just because it's yours? She had not a hope in hell of getting any customers who just happened to be flying through and notice her shop.

In the incident the OP describes... what the hell is wrong with talking to people, before freaking out at them for being there? Usually if you ask, you find out it's entirely innocent... I had such a case yesterday. I was watching the minimap... and how it appeared was, someone flew in, immediately placed a 2-prim object on my land, and flew off. I IMed them, and simply asked nicely what was that object you just left on my land (knowing there's some ugly little devices for sale on SLX). I could have flipped, ejected him, blasted him in IM... but I would have been a prat if I had... it turned out, he'd parachuted, the object was some temp-on-rez thing to do with the landing, and he left as quickly as he came. I checked about land, sure enough it was gone. So I replied, 'hey np '.

I don't agree with Lewis necessarily, that being social is the object of being here, I largely keep to myself in-world... but at the same time, I'm not much fussed what other people do. When people cross over your parcel, they don't know who you are, probably don't care, aren't interested in your stuff... it's just another parcel they're crossing. And unless you're the sort (as I am), to always have property lines on (a building habit), they aren't even aware exactly when they are crossing into your parcel.

I guess this is a long-winded way of saying, chill out, don't be so precious, and be a bit realistic about how much privacy you actually are gaining anyway (ie, none).

I'm not advocating the use of some types of security scripts. I still think they're mean and pointless.

But you're missing something Lewis. People can be very social creatures and still have valid reasons for wanting the occasional privacy.
Maybe I'm having a deep emotional conversation with a friend who really needs me in that moment. Having someone just walk up and want to join the conversation really doesn't work right then.
Maybe I'm having an intimate (read that any way you want, sexual or not) moment with someone, the last thing we want is to be interupted.
Maybe I'm hosting a private invited guests only party. I have a right to not want crashers.

The majority of people in SL I've found to be nice interesting people. I'm a social person, I love meeting new folks every day. But I love my private moments too. It's called a healthy balance.

I would pose the possibility that if land owners were provided with a few more non aggressive ways of basically locking their front doors, SL might in fact appear MORE welcoming to new people because there won't be a demand for the aggressive measures that come across as hostile.

Sure, I accept that - but that's not the problem.



Take it to IM? To the casual observer, its just two avatars standing still doing nothing.



Fine, just put up the ban lines, then take them off when you're done.



I've given ways above that you can be social and have 'private moments' if you want to. Yet people still want to blow people 3 sims away if they dare to walk across the corner of your plot (or even a public road nearby) for absolutely no reason whatsoever.



You can get doors for your property that only respond to a list that you allow access to.

What I don't understand is why people are worried about what happens on or nearby their land when they aren't even logged in. Human nature is such that if someone puts up a big sign saying "KEEP OUT", that's more likely to grab their attention and want them to see what is there that needs to be "kept out of".

Lewis

Yes, private and intimate doesn't always equate to doing the pixel nasty. For me, more often than not, my partner and I are simply absorbed in each other. Like you know, conversation. An A+B conversation... C ya. For that reason, if anyone TPed to me without IMing first, they'd disappear from my list at that instant.

It's not a question of overhearing... for me, I'd already be in IM. Sometimes you need to focus on a person, Lewis. Hard to do, whilst not being rude to the person who's walked up or TPed in and initiated a conversation.

What...you mean sometimes men really do just want to talk? hehe

To Lewis... I understand what you're saying and I agree to a point.
Aggressive security scripts bad, finding nicer ways to create privacy good.
But my point was that there is nothing wrong with wanting privacy and in fact there is nothing wrong with actually choosing to be completely anti-social if someone wants to be. The key is doing it considerately.

It is these statements I was addressing really ...



Thats YOUR reason... there are plenty of people who spend their time in SL doing nothing but building and rarely talk to anyone. That is their idea of fun. Is their reason for existing in SL any less valid than yours? You may not mean it this way but it comes across as if you're saying socialize or get out.

Shocking, I know...

Difficult one, as it is indeed *their* land, and their right to do in it what they like... As in some RL states, you can legally shoot someone if they are trespassing...
On the other hand, the breaking apart of your ship and the being an a**hole, are uncalled for... Being nice will work so much better, usually.

I personally have spent ten munites one time, being bounced from one secured parcel to the other, to the next, to the next... Tho I found it funny, it was kind of annoying as it slowed down my system to a crawl, couldn't even log off.

i'd say, file an AR, explaining well wat and how it happened, and let the Lindens decide.
Not forgettng the factor that the land owner might not really know how to set up his system... I dunno. I'm a ditz myself, I can imagine me making the same mistake. But at least I'd be nice about it, and apologize for the breaking apart of your ship.

I have one of these Starships, (Great vehicle) and so far, I've had No Difficulty what so ever Positioning it over Empty land or Public Land before Transporting to the surface. You are pretty worried about the level of courtesy (or lack of it) the Landowners show you, but i notice you don't think very much of how Little courtesy You are showing them by Carelessly Dropping yourself where ever you Feel like. Before you Demand respect from Others, perhaps you should consider Showing some respect TO others.

Regarding the security systems, A Land owner May have Many Valid reasons for Not allowing intruders Thirty seconds to Muck about in their premisis. The less time allowed, the less damage can be done. In general, I allow about Ten to fifteen seconds. Long enough to let the Innocent leave under their own steam, Short enough to Limit any Damage by the Less than Innocent. The one exception to this was a certain Skybox i Owned. I had it tricked out so that people would be Pushed away before they can get in (Ample warning provided to stay away Before they ever hit my security screens).

Angel.

6 seconds. Would be five if it wasn't a script issue.

Apart from the irritating random capitalisation, there's one big flaw in your argument.

You cannot do any damage to anyone's land or property if you use the tools provided such as auto-return, set to something reasonable like 5 minutes.

If you're there, you can deal with whatever is happening instantly, should it be violating the ToS (remember that covers griefing, NOT simply being there, and harrassment is not one isolated incident of a person looking at your house front the street).

If you aren't there, auto-return will kick in, anything they deposit will be gone, and assuming they've disappeared by the time you come back, you won't even know they've been there.

People assume, of course, that their security system's protection zone is obvious - generally it isn't. When you see the "you have 6 seconds to leave the area" message pop up, which direction do you go in? Backwards and hope that lag didn't mean you've already passed through it? Forwards and hope you clear it? Left or right, hoping it's away from the scanner? You have no idea ... so you stop, pull up mini map to try and figure out where it's coming from, and you've been griefed by a security system.

It should be a requirement that, if you have one of these stupid things, you put markers out clearly showing the boundaries of the protected area. Don't have enough prims? That's not my problem. You're creating the problem in the first place, so it's not my responsibility to avoid somewhere that isn't clear that it should be avoided.

How can you tell from a distance whether something in the sky is a public place, or a private area? You can't, and by the time you work out, you find yourself 3 sims away. There are far more legitimate reasons for having places in the sky that are open to the public, than private places.

The tools exist if you want privacy in-game. Security orbs are not a legitimate one.

Lewis

Security orbs are the legitimate tools until we can control the height of ban lines to cover our skyboxes. There is one governing principle in whether the sky is public or private: Does the landowner want that section of his airpsace, paid for monthly, to be private or public.