Texture Ripping to Fix Bad Clothes

I will. Thanks Chip. I gotta say, as somebody who has bought several skins (from yourself and others) in my few months here, texture theft pi**es me off. It just surprises me that more people I know in world are so blasé about it. Even a couple of clothing store owners I know (friends of roughly the same in-world age) took more of a dismissive "shit happens" approach, one of their friends suggesting I do exactly what is described in the subject line when I pointed out how easy a particular issue would be to rectify.

Well, as I've said throughout this thread, I won't do that. But I find it useful to offset the opinions of people I know in-world (they tend to be around my SL age) with those of more experienced residents and business owners. The forums are invaluable for making that connection...and for making sense of moral and ethical expectations in SL outside my rather limited and inexperienced circle.

I need to get out more I guess. In SL that is.

Having spent more than a bit of time "fixing" product for people that they bought from highly recommended designers ("move this slider and make those sleeves go away", I have to agree that some people may still be selling their early work.

As for IMs, after three attempts I just figure they don't care. *shrugs*

Texture ripping is copyright violation; not theft. Despite the shrill and persistant efforts of the RIAA and MPAA to convince us otherwise, copyright violation and theft are not the same things.

And if all Dillon Morenz does is rip a texture to fix his own personal copy of the clothing--it's not even copyright violation. Barring any sort of licensing (which I've never seen done with SL clothing) or "moral rights" law (which are mostly non-existant in the US) to the contrary, he's well within his rights to do so. If I buy a book, I can cut the book up, and reassemble the pages if I choose to do so.

If Dillon were to take the ripped and corrected copies and sell them or give them away, he would be publishing an unauthorized derivative work--that would be a copyright violation. But he's not trying to do that. He's just trying to fix bad clothing work.

If they're that lousy at Photoshop that they can't get rid of the alpha halo, they're not worth a return trip.

I'm not awash in $L by any means, but if I buy a piece of poorly done trash from a vendor after their ad posters "lied" to me, I simply won't go back. I keep a mental list of these second-rate clothing designers and I never send my friends there. IMming the designer to tell them how bad they are isn't worth the stress IMO.

Good designers, on the other hand, get lots of word of mouth from me and lots of return business. I'd like to think that profits are a form of karma in this matter -- but the truth is that probably 70% of the clothing sold in SL is pure junk and not worth the 30 or 50 cents you're spending on it.

I admit that I insure it is impossible to sell me clothes with "no modify".

I have to say I sympathize with this. I really get annoyed at the false advertising on SL, yes, even from "big name" desingers who put up "retouched" pics of their clothing and then when you wear it, it has defects. If you have no intention of reselling it, and just want to fix a problem that isn't a big deal to do, and after all you like the outfit and don't want to go through the hassle of demanding a refund, I can understand it. I haven't done it myself, but honestly, I've been tempted. If I bought I shirt in RL I could cut it to shreads and wear it as I please, even if it was hand sewn by Donna Karan herself, it's mine, I bought it.

This rant was brought to you by a vest that has major defects from a "established" designer.

(Lookit, I might buy the thing at a discount if I knew what I was getting, but don't fob off your early crap with pretty pics. Or just fix the damn thing.)

An interesting side-question to this would be evolving features. For example, let's say you have a skirt that you just love, and then BAM, flexiprims come along. ZOMG. What if that designer/outfit isn't available anymore, and/or it's an old outfit and the designer isn't interested in making a new flexi version of it. How would those designers feel about people ripping the skirt-layer texture and making a flexi-skirt out of it?

For me personally I would not mind. As long as you didn't sell/give away either the original or the new modification that you made I would not see anything wrong with it. Seems like it falls under the fair use idea.

I sell almost all my items with full mod rights. I figure if someone wants to customize it or thinks of a way to make it better then they should be able too. That particular item belongs to them now and they can do with it as they please.

I know others will disagree with me and that's ok. I'm just saying that as long as they don't distribute that new item I personally wouldn't care. In fact, I would be interested in seeing what they did. If it's an improvement I might even want to talk to them about a partnership to sell it! (Or at least get a copy for myself, hehehe)

I think I'm going to disagree with quite a few people in this thread.

Texture Ripping is not theft. As was stated before, breaking Copy Protection is illegal (DMCA), there is also a measure of Fair-Use here.

However:

Passing the edited clothing off as your own = Theft.

Keeping the edited clothing and giving away the original = Theft.

Selling or giving away the edited clothing = Theft.

Selling or giving away the ripped textures = Theft.

You hit the nail right on the head. I think (while it's technically illegal to do so) that ripping and fixing something is your right under fair use. If we're going to draw a SL/RL parallel, what if someone IRL sold you a box with a picture of it and cloths inside of it that you couldn't see, and then tried to stop you from sewing up a hole after you purchased it?

Almost everything I release ends up getting tweaked shortly afterwards. It's easy to get blind to something you've been staring at for hours on end (especially with skins). Many times I've had people point out seam flaws or other little blemishes that I didn't notice. I always appreciate being told and I almost always fix whatever it is and update the product in the box. If it's a major fix to a skin which I keep a ledger on I'll even go so far as to send an updated copy to everyone who owns one.

Many times, especially with things like alpha blemishes, the creator may not even have noticed the flaw (for example they might have previewed a clothing item against light skin missing flaws that are only visible against a dark skin. I say if it's a designer you've never tried to communicate with before give them the opportunity to rectify whatever it is. If they refuse then file it for future reference. But don't tar every designer with the same brush.

RL clothing doesn't have copy protection so it's a false comparison. I love how people will admit that something is illegal and then launch right in to trying to justify it.

Lets say I buy a poster, which has a copyright protected image on it. I can cut it down to size to fit my frame. I can draw all over it. I can do what I please with it but I cannot claim that it is the work of the original artist or resell it as such. Or claim it is my own work and resell it.

Now, SL is different, because without a third party program, I cannot modify the image. But then again, without a pen, I can't draw all over the poster, either.

Is using texture ripping for items you own, bought and paid for, really against the TOS? I have no idea, honestly.

If it's for personal use, I don't see what the problem is. Redistribution would make you a dirtbag but otherwise, why should anyone care? The act is about as sinister as using a No CD crack for a game while on an airplane -- you save a good portion of your battery by not having to run your optical drive. Yeah, you're defeating someone's copy protection, but big fucking deal -- the only person who benefited from the act is you, the paying customer. You only become the bad guy if you use the crack to install the game on all your friends' computers.



Oh, noes! The Belgians will come after you!

Legality and rightness are not one and the same. There are unjust laws, and it's our duty to fight them.

If you own the copyright, I would imagine not. If you don't then it's a violation of the DMCA. I'm not passing value judgements here. The simple fact is that ripping textures from SL is illegal in the US. It's really not a gray area, regardless of how people feel about the merits of the DMCA.

As for it being harmless if they don't pass it along... if someone goes through the trouble to rip the textures, knowing that they're breaking the law, why assume they'll suddenly grow a conscience? I'd think the odds favor them coming up with reasons to make an exception.

Dont rip em, buy em!

I just happen to have created some brand new high quality
original art texture packs set for sale at my headquarters.

Some of them are aimed at furniture cushions, carpets, drapes
and stuff like that.
But the Woodridge Series has some really cool more masculine
looking patterns, especially the ones with the art affects.

They are all full perms for designers, and I have made a few really cool sweaters and long sleeve shirts the easy way in
edit appearance by just choosing one in "create shirt".

They are located on the largest deck two floors above the
TP point.

It is true there is Much Less stuff for men than women, so you
might as well make your own.
And textures are critical.

I don't actually think the mere act of taking something out of my cache sent completely unencrypted to me is actually breaking a protection mechanism unless suddenly the act of what's unXORing is illegal, which would be complete news to a looooot of people well outside of SL. Or just logging it as it arrives unencrypted and unprotected, on top of that. I think just because you want it to be illegal doesn't mean it is and I'll certainly see you in court if you wish to prove it is, especially since fair use can certainly be argued for. We'll see if what's essentially an afterthought on in-game controls is actually a valid protection mechanism for work.

Until then, you're being a condescending Junior-RIAA.

Like I said I'm not being judgemental, Belaya, and I'm quite surprised by the tone of your reply. I'm just relating the law as I understand it. But yes, I would greatly prefer that people not rip my textures. I'm not sure why that's difficult to understand or empathize with, or why you feel I'm trying to somehow trample your rights. And it's funny that you should mention the RIAA since your example reminds me of internet radio stream ripping, which is also illegal. If you have something of mine you'd like fixed to your satisfaction, ask me. Until then, kindly take your attitude back to Kazaa.

It's funny that you should choose internet radio stream ripping as an example of fair use, instead of a more accurate comparison where the customer has actually purchased something that they want to modify for their own personal use -- for example a remix CD of your favorite music from various CDs that you legally purchased, or reripping a DVD you legally purchased so that you can take out all the non-skippable advertisments when you want to watch it, or cracking an e-Book that you legally purchased so you can use text-to-speech conversion because you have poor vision.

Chip, with all due respect, no one buys anything on Kazza. We are talking about textures that were bought and paid for. People pay me for RL designs which I know they may modify. If they haven't been granted copyright, all I ask is that it is not credited as my work or their original work or resold either way.

Now, I understand that SL work is different, it can be exactly copied and is meant for use in SL. For instance, a designer may have 5 different colors of one shirt and charge for each one. If I copied and recolored the original, making five different shirts, then I am cheating that creator out of a sale. However, simply modifying the existing texture, once, to fix a flaw, hurts no one and no "theft" is involved. The argument can be made that the texture is on my hard drive already, and I paid real money for it, therefore I have the right to modify it for my own personal use. I don't know the legalities of using a texture ripper in SL, though, honestly, even for your own stuff. *shrug*

ah sure while were at it!!

I've done this too (fixed things I missed for customers), but always feel bad about missing something even though I try my hardest too keep small mistakes to a minimum. It's just difficult to not miss things sometimes.

If this were an okay thing to do, wouldn't LL have provided an easy means for the owner of an object to get at the textures? The reason they didn't is because it's contrary to the reason we have a permissions system in the first place. If someone's going to go through the trouble of using a hack to obtain the textures why would I trust their motives? Why would anyone? They've already made an exception for themselves to do something they know they're not supposed to do, even if their intentions are honorable. Is it really such a leap to imagine them then giving one to a friend? I mean, what's the harm if they tell their friend not to pass it along? The leap from one justification to the next is small. Then that friend makes an exception for their friend, and on and on until the texture's in general circulation. You can bet if there was a way to completely lock down textures so that ripping was impossible, almost every content creator would want to do that. That makes the justification "I just want to fix a flaw for my own use" a moot point.

No one OWNS textured skins, tattoos, or clothing in SL except the CREATOR of that IP, period. Texture artists are NOT required to explicitly list all legal copyrights (not to be confused with the seriously flawed SL permissions system) with the sale of an item. The customer is ONLY buying a license to use that IP within SL and the right to wear the texture on thier avatar, and to modify it within the constraints of the permissions granted.

I understand completely where Chip is coming from, and why he disagrees with some of the counter-responses in this thread. Ripping textures in any way is illegal. No analogies need be made. Ripping and modifying textures is obviously overstepping those bounds too.

Here's an example of what I deal with on a daily basis:

2 customers (assumed to be friends of one another) wearing my skins came into my shop to look at makeover options for thier skins. One customer was a repeat customer that owned 2 skin models and had placed 3 custom orders with my associate in the past. The other customer was a month old account that did not show up on record. When the newer account attempted to place a custom order they were flat out refused and given the reason why (they had never purchased my skin). The newer account emmediately told me a story about how they had been given the skin as a Noob in the welcome area. I later offered to give them a new skin in exchange for the pirated skin because I was interested in obtaining evidence for filing a DMCA notice. They claimed they couldn't provide any proof of who gave them the skin, so I didn't give them a new skin. The repeat customer then told me that they had purchased and given a voucher to thier "friend". They "had no idea that thier friend was wearing a stolen skin, and wanted credit or a refund". I looked at my records and compared how many vouchers they had returned for custom orders versus how many they had purchased. I determined that they still had the exact amount they claimed they gave away. I told them they would get store credit or a refund at my associates discression (since she collects all $ on those sales). I also told them they ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT TRANSFER VOUCHERS to other accounts without voiding them. These instructions are clearly stated in the notes that come with my skins as well as all over my store. I'll never know if one, neither, or both accounts were trying to circumvent the system. I am obligated to treat repeat customers with respect, and that is what I did. I also feel I'm entitled to keep a rap sheet on who I see wearing stolen skins and how many times people use the same story to obtain a refund, AND who thinks it's OK to do this regardless of whether I have proof they have or not. Thats's called covering my butt!

There is no moral to this story. I shared it to illustrate how vulnerable texture artists and EVERYONE in SL is to many threats against IP rights, be that texture ripping, scam artists, bullshit rhetoric, or the innocent victims of these thieves. Yes, even the innocent can ignorantly pass on stolen content in the form of full permission freebies.

I guess the moral of this thread is - It's a jungle in SL and in RL these days. If you don't cover your butt, someones going to chew it right off!