Comments in Classifieds. Can we be serious for a moment?

Comments in Classifieds. Can we be serious for a moment? Yeah. I know it's me asking. But this is about the most verbose and serious I've ever been on a subject. I know it's long, but bear with me?

I'm really trying to understand what the basis behind this decision is and how we're going to move forward in a way that doesn't royally annoy everyone.

That's why I've started a new thread. Because the others are a helluva mish mash of tangential comments, thoughts and ideas that don't really help anything to gel.

I thought about formulating it into a poll, but I hate polls. And it's hard to ask the right questions without being biased. So 'scuse my more biased rambling instead.

This whole new deal about Classifieds being post only is nuts, as far as I'm concerned (see? Biased. Tsk).

My first concern is that I haven't seen the reasoning behind this voiced as a majority concern. If I'm understanding correctly, the main beef by a vocal few is that it's unfair to have people keep bumping Classifieds, because some people have more friends than others. Ok, I'm being a little facetious here, the words that were used is "levelling the playing field".

So first question...does everyone feel this way? Is it SO offensive that people give each other encouragement?

Certainly we can no longer ask questions of the creator either. If you care to look at some of the threads in Classifieds, a good many of the comments and questions raised have been of general interest, and creators have expressed gratitude at helping them improve their products from these comments.

We should lose that because of 'unfair encouragement'?

Wouldn't it be better to either order the Classifieds by date of original post rather than each bump? Or lose it from 'New Posts' altogether if it's that annoying?

Another concern I've seen is related to people posting to voice their own opinions in other peoples threads. We've seen employment ads devolve into 200 post long discussions of "this is/is not depraved!".

Surely the answer is to deal individually with the offenders and offensive posts by good moderation? I'd rather that if it really became necessary, they delete ALL the responses and repost the original post and lock it if its that provocative that people can't bear not to respond. Surely that's better than killing the ability to respond at all?

On to what needs to be done now, then?

We've seen from today what people feel about having posts in General about products, because they trolled all the threads we made - as per the Lindens own instructions at the time - to voice it loudly, therefore devolving the threads into far worse chaos than they ever did in Classifieds.

The Lindens have since posted to say that they have opened the Products Wanted forums for replies. This doesn't cut it.

So if I want to know if Avatar Foo's hair they just advertised in Classifieds comes in black - as I'm sure do many, many people, and is just the sort of question that got asked in Classifieds and is of general interest - I should post a Products Wanted for "Avatar Foo's Fluffy Pony Do in black?".

Or as I said earlier, taking any of the threads from today as an example; there were several examples (Crystalshard and Ingrid) who acknowledged within those threads how useful feedback and questions are to a creator. CS updated her product documentation to make it more user friendly based on todays feedback. Why should we lose this? Because we're sick of psychophants? So nerf everything?

People have suggested that we have a forum to discuss products. But what would that achieve? How is that going to solve the problem? Seperate out the forums and it just means people will start a new thread there to do the very same thing.

In fact, what will happen, is that somewhat like the voting for feature proposals thing, people will just make a new discussion topic for their item when they advertise it. So, how is double posting with one thread full of 'spam' any more desirable than what we had up til yesterday?

Seriously, people - and Lindens (I think you're probably people too) - come on! If this is a problem to the majority - and I haven't seen any evidence for that - can we come up with some REAL solutions?

I'm not pretending to have the answers, but what we have now sure as shit isn't it. So we can either lose yet more functionality, have half the room sit and gloat and the other half sit and fume, or we can try and come up with something the Lindens are happy with.

I suggest we try and put our heads together for once

Or just post snarky comments and pictures under this. I would

/me puts on her serious hat


Seriously,




Why do birds suddenly appear?

I still think the best, simplest and most elegant compromise (as others have also noted) is to have Classifieds postable but not bumpable.

Maybe the Lindens have a reason for not wanting to do it that way -- is it even possible with the forum tools they use? I believe Cris has it that way on SLUniverse.com.

Every time, you are near?

Seriously, as Beryl reccomended above - I think that's a 'best of both worlds' solution - make the Classifieds sort by original post date, let us reply all we want.

Um, this would be a truly radical and hitherto never attempted concept...

I'm not sure I understand what you mean? By postable but not bumpable' do you mean Post Only? In which case, where do I ask a question about a product? One that would be of general interest, as has been the case many times in Classifieds and my examples today? This is what I'm trying to get at - why do we have to lose the ability for feedback when there are other solutions?

Or do you mean by 'not bumpable' that they don't get added to New Posts? As per my suggestion above? Either don't have them in New Posts at all, or have only an original new thread post show up there. And I guess the forum order would have tp be by original poster too, to placate those that it bothers.

The first is what we have now and from inelegant. The second seems to be a workable solution and I can't really see how it would offend people. So I'll assume you mean't the second, which is my preference too. Because then that don't want to read a million bumps simply don't have to go there!

Ya know, I figured thats what she prolly meant. lol.

Everyone,

Disregard my original ramble...

What they said! Please, Lindens?

I think they mean that you can reply to posts, but they don't get bumped to the top of the forum when you do. Instead threads are sorted by original post date.

Personally I like a system like the scripters have. Post the Info and have a seperate area for discussion. If it's really that note worthy you will take the extra two minutes to make a discussion thread (be it your own item or juts to encourage others). I mean there are "new items" that I saw bumped for three days cause of "cheerleading" and while yes it is well deserved could have been done in a seperate discussion area.

People can post questions, but they don't bump the thread, yeah, like you and others have suggested. Honestly, I suspect that would eliminate a lot of the gratuitous gushy posts.

One of the reasons I haven't posted my stuff for sale in Classifieds is that I don't want to spend time doing the reciprocal "gosh, that's great!" posts since many will often do that to help out people they know. If users don't feel the need to bump their friends' threads by posting encouraging comments, I suspect the comments we do see will be more constructive and more legitimate consumer questions (or at least I hope they would). Who knows, though; I guess we wouldn't know for sure unless it was tested.

Which I think will suffer the exact same fate as I said in my original post. How is it better to have two posts about an item, one filled with comments, than what we had up until yesterday?

How about we just close down the forums and go play Second Life!?

Dude, if I could play Second Life I wouldn't be sitting here annoying you lot.

I agree. Barring that, I prefer to have them post-only. Yes, the comments are nice, but watching someone go back and bump every single thread they've ever posted with inane comments on their own items is ridiculous. It's because of shit like that they need to be either post-only or bump-proof.

For those that are annoyed at the new format, blame all the bumpers and the sychophants.

Aww, you're far from annoying Kris. Lo knows damn well that those birds appear because they want to be close to you.

* wipes pidgeon poo off your head *

Taking this seriously because I believe the Classifieds were among the top most useful things about Forums and Second Life. Easy to read, easy to find, easy to get and give feedback, and they were a nice soft spot in forums that otherwise does not exist except in Notices and Well Wishes (which are not even accessible from the main forum page--you have to go to General Forum to even find them).

Points I have to make (which I did make in other threads the OTHER time LL decided to close classified forums)

*Classifieds help people streamline their time in world, so you know where to go shopping as soon as you log in or can go to SLBoutique/SLExchange to do your shopping wthout wasting a lot of in-world time teleporting from point to point hoping to find what you are seeking to buy.

*Classifieds responses provide designers the advertising, feedback and encouragement they need to continue providing great content for SL, which GETS and KEEPS people logging in day after day.

*Classifieds responses show trends to designers. If 20 people say what a great thing mini skirts are, then other designers start making mini skirts. If 30 people say they prefer the color red, designers start making more things in red. How else would anyone know to make Watermelon Themed things for Torley if she hadn't posted somewhere in a response to a classified that she loves pink and green? (BTW, Torley is one of the BEST perks about SL, Forums and particularly Classifieds!)

*Classified responses particularly provide the feedback new designers need to improve.

*Responses to Classifieds are just as busy as responses to General, Off Topic, and Technical forums.


*Having to go to a thirdy party site to respond to classified advertising sucks. It's not immediately apparent to new residents that you have to go to a third party site to find out what is popular, what is new, etc.

*Taking away responses to Classifieds is causing discord in the General Forum where the message seems to be "keep your dumb, overly-positive, annoying, GIRLY responses away from my thread about Jamie Bergman/Anshe Chung/Camp Chairs, etc."

*Why do people assume that if you respond to a favorite designer that you are unfairly bumping their thread because you are a friend? Some of us were and are sincere in our compliments and have never met the designer or creator. We just want to provide encouragement and proper kudos to them so they keep creating great stuff, or we seriously have a question for them, they live in a different time zone so we can't contact them in world and get a response quickly (and some designers are too busy to respond at all anyway--which leads us to also know maybe they don't have good customer service, but that's another thing altogether)

*Responses in Classifieds allow creators to answer questions without having to get 40 IMs of the SAME QUESTION (and LL caps the # of IM's you can receive when you're not logged on, as well as the # of PMs you can have in forums).

*Frankly, I like to know if so-and-so likes this skin or that hair or whatever the item happens to be. It lets me know if I should buy that as a gift or if I should wear it to this or that event (god forbid we all show up in the same dress/skin/hair!)

*Classified responses is also where I got a lot of advice and continue to get advice about products I'm seeking or tips for wearing an item or how to modify an item or to know not to buy unmodifiable hair, or whatever it is...it's a good place for getting responses to your responses from other residents who have expertise to share.

*Responses to Classifieds are a bright note in the day for many, many people (yes, many WOMEN in SL, which is leading to my next point...)

*Responses to Classifieds is where many WOMEN feel comfortable posting in Forums because let's face it, there is a level of negativity in General and Off Topic, and frankly unless you are very tough and very aggressive, you won't post in those threads at all unless you want to be attacked for having an opinion.

(Yes, I am saying some women feel uncomfortable in General and Off-Topic forums, which yes, is sexist of me. But, if you look seriously at it the majority of posters in those threads are male. It is testosterone heavy in there. Posting as an aggressive female you get comments like, "Wow, postpartum depression sucks!" or "Is it that time of the month again?" or the general comment that women respond to things emotionally while men respond logically--and yes, I've heard this feedback about my own posts.)

*Taking responses away from Classifieds marginalizes a whole portion of SL's population (mostly WOMEN) who are the most important market for a majority of content creators, and who want to be active in forums but in their own way (mostly with a positive, encouraging tone).

Ok, all the women who do post in general and off-topic can now attack me for my points about sexism in those forums. Yes, we women should stick together and we should feel free to post our opinions and not feel marginalized and we are liberated godammit, yes, power to the people, etc. etc. But once I post in general or off-topic I then go to Classifieds to post a nice response to an up and coming designer so that I can balance my karma, ok? How the hell am I gonna balance my karma now?

Cause for people like me that use the New products forums to actually decide where to shop it helps not to read a psot you read 3-7 days ago. I watched as one thread was bumped for 3 days straight in new products forums and other one were bumped over 24 hours old. THis caused new products to be buried into page two where I don't always look.

By making a seperate reply only area it would do NOTHING I agree except maybe reduce the ammount people post cause they don't want to go to a seperate thread to say "nice job" as they have the other 10 times the same person realeased products. That and prevent bumping of a "new item" post that is days old and had 200 other new products since then.

I tried to do a new post minutes after the change this morning because i had added new textures to hair i am releasing this week (a new post on an old thread) and couldn't and also couldn't add comments on the hair other than to edit the original message which most won't look at again because they think they've already seen it. (though they've likely seen only one picture of four).

How this impacts makers of stuff: are we going to see postings for every new shade of lipstick? for each new logo on a tshirt? grrrr. Posting 4 times for the same hairstyle is annoying, so I guess there will be no more sneak previews and new products will be posted only after full development has completed and nothing more can be added or changed? in other words, 3 months after release date???

I like the solution of having it not bumped up and at least be able to answer when someone has a question. We have no forum for doing that now that i know of other than, what, general??? Do people seriously expect to post in general and not look out of place when they mention that they have added on to a product or wish to solicit feedback on a product???

I have Often commented to encourage new makers or give feedback on stuff that stood out for me, and i also know how valuable those comments are to makers. Or to me, anyway. And, when I failed to receive any comments at all, most often that was a product that also didn't perform well on the marketplace so the lack of posts was an early indicator system on that. Eliminating the ability to respond on that thread took away the best R & D tool that makers have.

One forum for a simple post only classifieds.

One forum for discussions of the classifieds.

Each classified contains a link to a thread for it's discussion in the classified discussion forum.

People who want to see the threads in order by post date read the classifieds only.

Those who want to read or join a discussion of a particular classified post in the classified discussion forum.

Something like that.

Exactly that is what I mean. Use something like this. That way those that just want to shop can shop and those that want to comment can comment.

amen, sistah!

and btw look at what barnes has to say - its a nice mature way to handle the whole "omg i can't have my way" so i'll run wild with sarcasm elsewhere.

/invalid_link.html

I'd go along with this... true, it was annoying to have a post get bumped for days with 'that's so cute!' replies, but it's even more annoying to have to make a new post in another forum to ask a question about an item. I don't read the General forum much, so if there's discussion about products there, I'm likely to miss it. It wasn't a huge problem, at least for me, to just close a thread and move on if I saw it wasn't actually new; it's more of a problem to have to go search another forum to see if anybody else has the same question about Item X that I do.



I think you're probably right about this... and eliminating the gratuitous bumps is the main idea. It just seems to me that solving the problem by eliminating replies is making things needlessly complicated.

I'm with Jonquille and the others who have proposed this , I would be for allowing comments but not making the posts bumpable. I was very sad this morning when I wanted to comment on a item by a designer that does not post often and could not.

I use the forums to shop and see what trends are out there I don't post my own items all that much. If they can't make them so they are not bumpable, I know some people will disagree but I rather they remain post only.

As I have said in previous post I see nothing wrong with supporting friends or encouraging others, but there has been alot of abuse by people bumping threads for weeks on end on products that may or may not have deserved it.

Posts that are personnal and aurgumentative that have no place in classifieds, also comments of people saying such and such is the best thing ever in SL, then I have gone to purchase the item and it was far from that.

I have made many a purchase in the past to find it was not all that and been very disappointed. I have also made purchases were there have been little or no commentry because designer was not well known or not a regular poster so got no responses and was ecstatic over my find.

You rarely get honest critiques in classifieds because people fear retaliation and some who have done so have done it rudely, also I think people fear telling you truthfully what they think. That being said there are times it is helpful and offers insight on things you can change and make better, (this is however happens lees often then more).

I do hope they make some type of accomodation to allow some commentry but I think that in fairness not allowing the posts to be bumped is a much better approach for all.

*licks Kritter*
Your post was too long, but I love you anyway <3

I think we should be able to reply to posts in the classifieds, but not let it bump the thread. As someone posted in the Hotline /invalid_link.html . It seems crazy to have a forum to post the new products, and then another forum where you can reply to the other forum.