Scambusting

Well said, clio. I don't really know why the arguments about this issue always devolve onto legalities, when in fact it is a *moral* issue.

The permissions system flat out sucks and dates from a time when the playerbase was small enough that everyone more or less knew everyone else. LL has been making burbles about a permission overhaul for over 2 years, net result: nothing.

Do I want DRM? hell no; but even if you were to hand LL the most complete, bullet-proof specification for permissions affording all desired uses in a way that was simple to understand, what would the likelihood of implementation be?

Come to SL, make money, have your stuff gratuitously ripped off. There is a huge gap between their "SL as next internet" and what the system actually affords.

Expecting an anonymous community of 10,000+ to be nice, cooperative and have no ethical cheats might work on some other planet, but not this one.

But when it's set to MOD/COPY/TRANSFER, that gives them EXPRESS PERMISSION... what everyone is referring to as "transfer" is, in the permissions setting box, "SELL/GIVE AWAY". That's pretty specific, I'd say.

Until an expanded set of permissions is implemented, that's it.

Sorry Introvert, I missed what you were saying. I was busy downloading 3DStudioMax through BitTorrent.

Muskuo, there isn't really a kinder way to say this... you're wrong. You're wrong about LL policy, you're wrong about US and international copyright law... you're wrong about pretty much everything there.

copy/trans is NOT the same thing as a written statement of copyright intent, and without that, you don't have permission to use it however you like. It's as simple as that. Unless I include a note to the effect that you do, you don't. It's that simple.

You can cry all you like that you "dont see how we dont understand how permissions work" - we do understand how permissions work. What YOU don't understand is that permissions do not circumvent real-life laws on these matters.

It won't be long until this is tested. Disney's Mickey Mouse copyright expiration is coming up in a year, two..soon and we'll see if the copyright laws get "extended". It happened last time the mouse was due to become public domain by what I understand.

Translation:

My opinion is right, your opinion is wrong.

Just cause

Yes, Muskuo's said that quite often.

Translation: The law agrees with me

If you must sell copy/transfer..

Then make them no modify, so they can't be renamed, and make the vendor add the buyer's name to the end of the item name.

It's going to be kind of discouraging to have to sell on an object named "poseball for (Your Name)".

Unfortunately.. like many other things.. I can't see how it can work for textures

If someone marks the box that says next owner may "resell/give away" that gives them a LEGAL right to "resell/give away" that item.

SLboutique appears to allow one to select a freebie item and give a copy to someone else.

The recipient has to be registered with SLboutique, making it inconvenient for handing out freebies to new users in a totally easy manner.

Would it be possible to create a script that would enable people to use an offworld server in a similar manner to give a no transfer freebie item to someone without requiring the recipient to register?

If this is possible, it might be possible to make it happen before LR gets around to changing the permission system to allow a "transfer for free only" status.

"copy/trans is NOT the same thing as a written statement of copyright intent"

Yes, it is. Granting copy rights on an object in SL is...surprise surprise...granting copyright on an object in SL. There is no "right" format for granting copyright. It can me saying "eh, copy it all you like, I don't mind", or it can be a written statement.

"Muskuo, there isn't really a kinder way to say this... you're wrong."

I agree. Muskuo is wrong in everything he says, does and thinks. I say we hunt down this Muskuo and burn him...after we molest him first, though. I hear he's a pretty sexy guy, that Muskuo.

Musuko, enemy of Muskuo.

Again, it's like CDs - by virtue of providing the data in a format that it can be used, the risk has to be taken people will decide to simply start reselling copies of it. That is NOT the same thing as giving them explicit permission to do so.

I think the problem comes in the "properties" box, where in order to set a permission, you have to tick a box that says "Next owner may..."

Clicking a box that says "Next owner may copy, next owner may resell/give away" could be interpreted as giving explicit permission. You may in fact not mean in that way, and have done it for a purely functional reason - but nonetheless, that's what you've clicked.

Maybe LL should be asked to change the permissions text from "Next user may.." to "SL will not stop next user from.." just to clarify this.

On the one hand, we've got those who believe that free should mean free forever. Freely transferred, freely given, freely used and distributed.

On the other hand, we've got the enterprising, capitalistic, free-market folks who believe that if they CAN make a profit from something, then they SHOULD have the right to...

I can identify more with the first group, for several reasons. One, freebies helped me get my virtual ball rolling in Second Life. Two, it speaks more to a utopian ideal where everybody's nice and considerate of everybody else's feelings. In a perfect world, we wouldn't need laws and copyright legislation or DCMA.

But there's no perfect world, neither in meatpeople-reality, or Second Life. You'll always have people who think it's ok to profit from someone else's sweat or brainwork.

All I can wish is for creators and designers to keep the altruistic spirit of freebieism alive by making more stuff, some of it free if you like, in the hopes that most people will take them in the spirit intended.

The bottom line is, while free stuff is awesome, truly exceptional work and products will always be in demand. People like quality, and they WILL pay for it. So, don't sweat the small stuff, the freebie stuff, since a lot of the time it's first-attempt, ok-quality designs and products. Sure, you'll get the occasional really cool piece in a freebie kit, but for the most part freebie boxes seem to be made up of stuff that a) teh creator doesn't want anymore b) the creator has improved enough in skill that the freebie item no longer meets his/her personal quality standards or c) functional stuff that is meant to help people get started.

On a personal note, I'd like to think creators/designers get a little thrill from seeing their designs evolve as people mod them for their own use. I doubt the designer of "Modern House Dark" would recognize it in my house any more... Wish I knew who the designer was so I could credit their base design in my land description...

OH NO HES MAKING A $1L BURN THEM CHASE THEM DOWN!!....Honestly mabey another check box is needed to prevent the selling of items but then there are ways around it...

For example\\ heraldo: Hey can i get that slot machine?(has the give away option selected) BoBerto: Sure gimmie $5L..... Dosent seem to work.

The only way i can see the problem being solved is either every freebie has a no transfer option which would be kind of outrageous. Or the person could move on and get over the fact that they granted the permission to RESELL/give away..

The texturing deal has the same problem, Anyone can resell them because the box is checkd, Dose the owner of them have each individual texture copywrighted, Mabey in the notecard they ask you nicely to not redistribute..People still do resell them. But i yet to of found a place that has all the textures that cost money up for sale for cheaper and i still see people shopping in texture stores and the texture buisness lives on..

I am also a yard sale junkie and see people reselling freebies for stupid prices..And ive learned what is a freebie and what is not its not that hard to figure out...When the item forsale is a copy...And is made by somone else..and has full perms..WOAH WAIT A SEC THEY MUST BE RIPPING ALOT OF PEOPLE OFf..not...The simple soultion is to check theese its not like they can hide the fact its a freebie O.o , and if you reallly want it check if the creator has a shop and see if its in the shop for free orrr buy it!

You can give permission to someone to copy something without giving away your copyright (even though we don't have true registered copyrights on anything inside SL, so the term is a bit of a misnomer).

Cubey Terra sells his aircraft copy/notrans as a convenience to the customer. You're telling Cubey that he's also granting copyright to his planes?

I object to other people stealing my work and selling it for a profit when it was released with full perms solely for the purpose of personal use. I get very frustrated when I see my efforts to contribute to the creative commons and give new people a leg up perverted by greed.

Also, I can't fathom why someone would want to get the reputation of a thief for what amounts to a few cents a transaction.

All of our freebies are now released no transfer, thus serving our purpose until such time as the Lindens upgrade the permission system.

Since the aircraft is noTrans it really cant be distributed now can it??

Mabey the owner has infiinate copys but dose he make money off the creation by selling it? Can the owner give it to others and hurt Cubys Buisness..Nope

"I object to other people stealing my work and selling it for a profit when it was released with full perms solely for the purpose of personal use"

if its SOley for personal use why do you got Transfer selected?

And if the person resells it for a L or 2 mabey theyre trying to Help others

But frankley I wouldnt mind if that happend to one of my creations because it would get my name out and people would come and check out my shop and mabey get somthing from there or get a Freebie for their "convenience"

How are they a theif if you GAVE it to them??

"Again, it's like CDs - by virtue of providing the data in a format that it can be used, the risk has to be taken people will decide to simply start reselling copies of it. That is NOT the same thing as giving them explicit permission to do so."

SL permissions are called PERMISSIONS. When you tick the box you are giving the second owner PERMISSION to do that thing.

How is that not clear? GOD!

It is very, very, VERY simple; if you tick the permission box, you are giving the next owner permission to do those things. It is the same as a CD with "You may copy this CD and give away or sell the copies" written on it, NOT just a CD that you can, but shouldn't, copy.

Don't want people to milk your cow? Don't tell them they have permission to. If you don't want to give people permission to copy, modify, resell or distribute your item, DON'T GIVE THEM PERMISSION TO DO SO! It really is very, very, VERY simple, and those who aren't understanding it need a quick slap with a very stinky fish.

Musuko.

When i was a Noob, before most of you even knew of SL, I Had a Dream,
A Dream of a place where all would be Free for All, A Place to Study and Learn from,
A Place that would be the Container and library of ALL the Freebies of the World,
A Dream I Built Day after Day, Month afte Month, Sorting Hundreds of Items,
Listing them one by one, until it became Years and Thousands and the Dream was True.

I AM the JUNKYARD Owner, and I am proud of what i did, i made no profit but the whole community has profited of my place, THAT was my goal, My Dream EXISTS Today.

Sometimes a few Items pass the filtering (150 textures on a 1250 box isnt that much is it?) but when i am asked to check, Items are RETIRED Immediately !!!

(ah and for the laters, yes i do sell a some of my boxes for 1$L, i can sort and list and prepare for people s use for free, but my land will not autopay)

Yours, Lovingly, YadNi !

I'm curious if anyone actually took the time to IM the "Junkyard Owner" (by the way, hi YadNi) before taking off on this thread. I find it infinitely more useful to actually try to settle things with the individual before using points that will inevitably become fingerpointing and a flame war here. Thanks.

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Now, as a general trend, scambusting in Second Life is a nettlesome issue. I still do not believe in the Linden permissions system, given it still carries what I find to be a bandaid on a broken leg.

Frankly, I would rely on watermarking of textures and simply raising awareness of the general problem (as opposed to pointing fingers). This is also a reason why I don't shop much in Second Life -- I don't trust the goods I may or may not receive.

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Anyway, to the ranters and rantees, I would chill out, take the matter up with YadNi, and see what happens.

Public gripe sessions on general issues I don't mind. However, some of this comes off as rather targeted and baseless on the intent. So unless a better argument is presented, I would get off it and onto some of the less demeaning ones elsewhere in the thread.



This public service announcement brought to you by Flame Retardant Suits, Incorporated.

"Permissions" has a different meaning in computer terminology, particularly in this case. Repeating - By virtue of the format required to sell the product, those boxes must be checked.

That is NOT the same sort of permission as, say, a written statement that says, say, "You may not use these textures for commercial purposes", or whatever.

Since we retain IP ownership in SL, our wishes, as the IP owners, trump SL's permission system - if I say no, you can't, then that's what goes, regaurdless of what checkboxes have been clicked.

Again: The IP owner has control over what can be done with his work. Not LL's permission system.