Another Attack!?!

Yeah, you're right there. However, I've found that most of the griefers on SL just ain't that smart. LOL. If they were, they'd sure be hacking something other than SL. They can't even claim to be "elite"; it takes no brains at all to do an SL hack.

As for FBI... yes, they may or may not take an interest in a hack on SL. But if the pres of a multi-million dollar corporation makes a phone call and says, "Our grid was taken down tonight by an intentional hacker".... well, let's just say computer hacking is on the top of the FBI hit list right now.

But there is another thing to consider in this as well: unintentional hacking. It's pretty well known that a self-replicating device can do a lot of damage. It's also known they still exist on the grid. So the reality is that any newbie can be handed and unknowingly "open" a nuke device... and once it's opened, it's going to do damage. And a newbie especially won't know how to stop it.

So as you accurately stated, yes, if they have to bring in an external security expert to plug their system, that's exactly what they need to do. But I'd think with all the brainpower at LL, someone should have a clue how to fix it. Shoot, I'm pretty close to a solution, and I haven't even put all due thought to the matter.

Geez...sorry I spelled your name wrong. Gasp. Woe is me.

I'll not argue that "investing" that kind of $$$ in SL isn't questionable. But I imagine Anshe Chung is insane all the way to the bank. IMHO.

I won't even get into that philosophical debate.

Wow, ok. Enjoy. /rampage

thats just wrong..LOL

They can travel to private sims the same way email worms can propogate their payloads - unsuspecting people doing something they don't realize causes a problem. No matter how careful you are, you can't protect yourself against what you don't know, and someone will do something stupid. So they can't really assume that private sims are clean.

Micki, I don't think the other response to your question was complete enough, so I'll add my .02 worth:

Typically, what happens in these cases is that someone has created an object that reproduces itself (aka "self replicating prim". Typically the one object the person creates will make two of itself. Those two each make two, the resulting four make eight, and so on.

After just 10 generations, there are now over 1,000 of these objects.

After 10 more generations, there are over a million.

After 10 more... well, my calculator gives up the ghost. You get the idea.

SL's servers become choked with all this data and crash, if the process isn't interrupted.

Needless to say, this isn't a good thing.

P2

Good explanation. Seems there could be a good way to deal with such things.

One idea comes to mind: since there is a prim-limit on all sims, once the prim limit on a piece of land is reached, stop all further object creation. And to prevent the item from going to other parcels, don't allow an item to replicate itself across land borders. Bam. End of replication process. Doesn't even have the chance to get into the millions, because even on a blank, undivided sim, maximum replications will be 15,000. End of story.

But since most sims are subdivided into several land plots, usually there will be no more than 200 to 800 prims allowed on the plot where the object starts. Such a "sim killer" would then become no more than a brief hiney bubble in the bathtub of the cosmos.

Such a simple solution.

Physically-enabled objects include vehicles. Your solution would prevent any vehicle from crossing a sim that is nearly full, or a group of vehicles that would temporarily overload the sim limit. This is why Linden Lab has a pool that is used to provide transit to things like vehicles, and attachments.

So the solution doesn't work. The real problem here isn't the tool, its the person who decides to use an open system for harming other people. You don't cripple the system in response, you try to negate the person trying to act in that manner.

LL has done this, by declaring they'd prosecute using legal means against attackers. We should see what the result of this new approach is before frantically removing functionality because someone might misuse it.

I use high powered pushes regularly.

But only on my own avatar.

I use them on objects too. I find hurling things around quite fun - er, I mean, I'm experimenting with the physics system and related function behaviour - and you need a high-powered push to move some big heavy things at all.

Maxx, how does preventing replication of an item across land borders have anything to do with a vehicle crossing a sim border? I fail to see how this solution doesn't work.

As far as vehicles overloading a sim limit, if a sim is already at maximum objects (which really, how many sims are that close to max?), then a simple notice to a client that further objects are not allowed in the sim (ie, they need to detach the vehicle and fly) might be preferable to an open-end ticket to griefers to wipe the grid with a nuke device.

Yes, there is the occasional av-cannon that is fun. I wouldn't want to see an elimination of such devices.

I'm not advocating elimnation of push devices all together. However, there's a difference between a cannon firing a willing victim across a sim (and there are certainly several ways to determine willingness)... and hitting a victim so hard it pushes him to limbo and forces a logoff.

What's needed is a logical restriction of scripting parameters (ie, ObjectPush has a maximum setting of whatever). Face it: there are a lot of people on SL who are by no means "adults". You don't allow children unlimited access to the cookie jar. You don't expect people who have never grown up to moderate themselves. So the answer is to moderate obviously harmful SL functions.

This principle has been used by sysops for decades. If you want to eliminate flaming on a forum, one of the easiest ways to do so is with an obscenity restricter. It's amazing how far that simple step goes in keeping trolls out of forums. If they can't use foul language... they suddenly lose their ability to type.

You really want to drive a point home to griefers? Temp or permaban is one way. Another way is forfeiture of inventory. In RL, armed robbery has a much stiffer penalty than unarmed robbery. So if someone uses an inventory item to grief people, let LL wipe their inventory clean and prevent acceptance of any further inventory for a month or three, and see how long the griefers last. Not long. Without their inventory, there's not much they can do except shoot off their mouths... which is easy to trace, report and dish out additional proscriptions.

There are lots of ways to enhance security on SL without damaging the enjoyment of the game for others. All it takes is people willing to do so.

First the have CC information. So SOMEONE is going to get in trouble. If it's parents or friends CC or a gift card then still SOMEONE will get in trouble.

And yes, "in general technical problems are best met with technical solutions". This, though, is NO more a technical problem than an arson burning down a shopping mall is. (what would you do? fix matches so they don't light?) It is a criminal behavior problem and no amount of technical problem solving will fix it without ruining SL for the rest of us.

Find 'em, toss their behinds in jail and let them spend their time with their new bf instead of online.

This has already been done. It hasn't prevented Ludicrous Push. Try something else next time... like fixing it so you're not messed up when you go off-sim.

llPushObject *does* have a maximum, anyway.

http://secondlife.com/badgeo/wakka.php?wakka=llPushObject

I'd bet that in any scripting environment that wasn't pretty much entirely crippled, I could find some way to annoy people.

edit: snap

Exactly my point!

Unless you cripple SL such that it is no better than there.com criminals will ALWAYS find a way to mess with other people.

Solve technical problems with technical solutions.

Solve social problems with criminal prosecution.

Criminals cause grid attacks, scripts do NOT cause grid attacks.

This step was a sensible, necessary step. But it's already obvious it didn't stop grid-crashing griefers. Face it, these guys are not smart. You can threaten them until you're blue in the face, they don't care. They're stupid at best and more than likely self-destructive. Many of them are probably borderline psycopathic.

To be honest, I'm amazed at folks who are aghast at any mention of regulation. It's like some great pox-taboo that brings terror to their hearts. Chee people, regulation exists all over life, all the way from stop lights to gravity. Do we lock the doors on our cars? Why? Why not just have a sign on your car that says, "You steal my CD player and I'll sue." Why not leave our homes unlocked with a strong warning sign that criminal action will bring criminal prosecution?

No, we apply security measures and we regulate entry because we KNOW that no matter how many warnings we give, there are still idiots that are going to ignore those warnings. We lock the car and home and give keys to authorized users. We put up fences around our yards to keep children from playing out in the street. We put locks on the windows and add a screen door so bugs and other vermin can't get into the home. In neighborhoods that are more dangerous than others, it might be necessary to put up bars on the windows, then to prevent people from being trapped inside during a fire, add internal fail-safe devices to those bars.

You do what is necessary to defend yourself. And if that means a tiny bit of inconvenience here and there (ie, we do have to unlock the car every time to get in it, yes?), then the security is worth that inconvenience. Today, we even have "key clickers" that unlock the door for us.

Same thing can be done with SL. Put up logical restrictions (such as maximum allowed levels on push scripting) and let folks have fun within those parameters. I'd have to guess that preventing push-script from launching people into limbo is NOT going to have a detrimental effect on daily SL life.

Of course, the only thing I'd be worried about then is that just like Hover Tips... Linden Lab would go too far the other way and durn near eliminate the functionality of the thing. Instead of sensibly and logically handling the supposed hover tips problem... they instantly obliterated the value of every museum and descriptive tag on Second Life. If they'd had a lick of sense, they'd have defaulted Hover Tips to ON, hide listing any item named Object, with several options for limiting hover tips should such be desired by advanced users. Wiping most Hover Tips for new users was a senseless decision; newbies are the ones who need those tips more than anyone.

The key there is common sense... something we often see lacking in such decisions. I still say that what LL needs more than anything else right now is a watchdog who knows how to say, "Hold it guys... we might not want to do that." Or, who alternatively can say, "Here's something that is really, really needed." Visionary blue-sky is fine for general direction; you put a common-sense down-to-earth individual in control of the wheel.

Enforcement is the key. It is also an area in which LL is habitually weak due to understaffing.

It has not been given enough time. Slowly, as the number of griefers that are criminally prosecuted increase they rest of their mostly brain-dead ilk will start to see the light.

It will take a while and if LL really wants to make it effective they should make it as public as possible.

Maybe.... but that annoyance probably wouldn't include being able to shut down the grid, eh?

I totally agree with you there. Unfortunately, LL historic policies on handling griefers proves they don't make such things public. If they did, there's a good chance a lot of this griefing would have already been done away with.

One of the most effective punishments I've ever seen a school use is almost humorous. They didn't give after-school detentions. They didn't spank. They took trouble-makers and set them during lunch-hour in an enclosed garden area visible on the way to the cafeteria. And everyone who walked past would grin and laugh-- especially the victims of the bullies.

You didn't see folks in there more than once or twice. They might do after-school detention for a year. They couldn't stand the humiliation, because it showed them up for what they really were: classless jerks.

That argument is as old as the gun lobby, and just as invalid.

Really?

So you believe that scripts cause grid attacks? And of course airlines cause airline hijackings?

And criminals must just be victims of scripts and airlines...and of course should be protected from commiting crimes by getting rid of the REAL cause of those crimes; scripts and airlines.

Yeah...that makes a whole lot of sense.