Will there be any leadership on signage griefing?

Ayup. I said this was germinating a while back, and here it is. I was once wondering if these signs weren't a ploy to get folks to freak out and leave the mainland (I myself refuse to leave because of it, "this too will pass", but now I am wondering if Lazarus isn't trying to engineer community unrest, while sitting in his computer chair giggling.

Who knows I suppose, just a thought, although my strong suspicion is that there is a bit more to it than just his wish that Bush be impeached. It's not like spreading signs all over Second Life is actually going to get Bush impeached, and, he's really preaching to the choir, when one considers the overall liberal demographic of SL.

I'll take the bet. I'm calling you out on this. And I'll make the bet more. say anywhere up to L$10,000?

It'd be hella worth it to lose anyway to see you publicly apologize for releasing a hoax.

So let's do it. Put your money where your mouth is.

I'm a journalist in RL and only mildly gullible. So let's see that fake press release!

The debate here seems to underline how much LL's customers have been left hanging on this issue: if you pay for a virtual experience, and invest time in a virtual society, do you have an entitlement to a civil society? Does LL bear responsibility for doing more than enforcing its own written rules?

What I'm seeing in-world is a lack of policy and management vision, a view to managing SL's proto-society that lives up to its technology/gaming accomplishments. In other words, Linden Labs is very accomplished within its*techie/ Silicon Valley milieu, but less so as the*de-facto government of its virtual world.

The Linden parallel to the early-middle days of the internet -- where anarchy and pure freedom was an asset -- doesn't hold, I argue. SL is a closed system, a community of a sorts. Ergo, we need more RL-style cultivation of said society, a mix of freedoms, incentives and prohibitions that would render better outcomes. Moreover, existing policy is a marked by a single brute incentive: Dwell which is purely numerical and and has been thoroughly gamed by the camping chair set. Tier discount for groups is a much more sublime incentive, though the kind of group tools and non-profit incentives that would help build a fuller, more diverse Second Life, do not yet exist.

Lindens: hire people with some innovative government or public policy experience, publish short think-pieces on current affairs to inform the SL masses and encourage engaged debate. Maybe create some sort of surrogate Fed to help residents understand and anticipate LL's in-world land, currency and economic objectives. Certainly there's a lot of engagement within the existing forums from residents, tho it's not clear how much of this input is actually incorporated into decisions. In short, study success in public governance within RL, outside of the technology business, and apply more within SL.

Besides the Impeach Bush signage issue, which is really an*embarrassment -- can you imagine any RL local* government and*rate-payers tolerating that kind of systemic abuse? -- the management of P2P and closure of telehubs was an in-world communications mess. For example: LL would have made it a lot easier for residents and itself with more transparency and PR on a greater vision. Instead there was uncertainty -- only now has compensation been announced -- and residents focussed on fears, both founded and unfounded. Smart government would get ahead of the issue and not leave people wondering, complaining and speculating -- which is fine within the corporate world, but does not befit a society, virtual or otherwise.

The irony of Impeach Bush is that while SL seems quite liberal, the neglect of civil*society and good government concerns in SL actually bears some resemblance the Bush admin's neglect of civil society and accountable process in RL. And LL seems to be neglecting in-world policy, as well as selling new land and money in the hail-Mary mode that Bush allows the USA to run incredible trade and government spending deficits: both don't seem terribly sustainable in the long run.

The annoyance of the Impeach Bush signage is one aspect of underdevelopment in Second Life. I have voiced some of these concerns to Lindens directly within the Community*Roundtable process. No reply or result, at least not yet.

That said, it's fascinating to watch SL move forward these days, tho I'm still slowly reducing my tier since I don't think it's worth $75 USD in monthly tier -- money that is needed in RL by non-profits and NGOs that inspire some of my own SL work, plus the fact that RL is full of other things that trump SL. This where governance concerns should ring bells within the LL business plan: SL isn't merely competing with other MMORPGs, but with RL itself for the money of its players, since many gamers like myself aren't going to defect to another online game, we just won't log on, period. Or we'll spend less money on SL in the process, choosing not to more fully subsidize a beta online society if the annoyances inevitably outweigh the rewards.

I like Tenzin's whole post.

For the last thing he says, I would like to paraphrase it:

If it ain't fun, we aren't gonna play it!

coco

Oh dear.

No, I didn't call him a confidence trickster.

Chip said that people could just not buy his overpriced land, and therefore there was no need to make a fuss.

I pointed out that in rl a confidence trickster doesn't have to be a successful one. Attempting confidence trickery is illegal.

This was by way of analogy.

In other words he doesn't have to be a successful extortionist to be a criminal.

What you see as lack of structure and enforcement, I see as freedom. I consider it a feature, not a lack of them. Other MMO's avoid similar problems because there isn't any freedom. All actions are preordained along very specific and narrow paths. Bad behavior is avoided because there are such limited avenues in which to act out. The impeach bush signs are an embarassment, but not because LL allows them. It personally embarasses me that people have such an evolved entitlement mentality that a bunch of textured cubes can cause them to behave as if they're being beset by raping and pillaging barbarian hordes. It's silly overreaction in the extreme. It serves only to provide the sign maker with exactly the payoff he's probably after, and that is an embarassment... and not one LL can eliminate. Only you can do that by not letting it annoy you. Adults should be beyond the stage when every little annoyance cuases the populace to do the equivelant of yelling "mom! He poked me!" Stop making this guy into a celebrity and he'll go away all on his own.

chip, you seemed to have missed the whole first part of my post. But thanks for suggesting that some of us are child-like, that's a backhanded compliment.

I wasn't avocating law enforcement and I don't believe this is a freedom versus whatever issue. What I said was that RL governments handle this sort of thing all the time, with various degrees of success and failure, and without throwing civil liberties into crisis. It can be done in SL, too, I argue. And it would be nice if LL respected the USD paid by players and attempted to innovate instead of reverting back to the rulebook.

Fair enough, but do you have any suggestions on how LL can handle this sort of thing without restricting freedom or creating a system where groups of people who share a subjective set of tastes can bully others to conform? It seems a whole lot easier to just ignore the signs. Anything else is likely to have far reaching consequences that limit legitimate expression.

I know you were referring to some specific sign's location, which I don't know, but for what it's worth here's where some of the signs under discussion are, and the information from their land descriptions

The prices quoted in the land description do not neccessarily match the price actually set for the parcel.

These signs can be used to influence the neighboring landowners to buy the sign bearing parcel at a high price, or to convince the neighbor to sell their parcel, and the purchaser can be a alternate account or a business partner of Lazarus Divine.

If they are used to drive the neighbors away then the parcel the sign is on wouldn't need to be up for sale.


Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$32,000
secondlife://No/40/48 - 1,024 sq. m. - Nov 12, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$2
secondlife://Chaska/64/56 - 192 sq. m. - Oct 18, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$1,000
secondlife://Gourdneck/26/140 - 32 sq. m. - Oct 23, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$64,000
secondlife://Jewell/64/128 - 2,048 sq. m. - Nov 9, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$2,000
secondlife://Boreal/36/140
secondlife://Boreal/36/140 - 64 sq. m. - Oct 31, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$1,500
secondlife://Clay/22/30
secondlife://Clay/22/30 - 48 sq. m. - Nov 1, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$1,500
secondlife://Blair/58/138
secondlife://Blair/58/138 - 48 sq. m. - Nov 1, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$2,000
secondlife://Wards/84/116
secondlife://Wards/84/116 - 64 sq. m. - Nov 1, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$2,000
secondlife://Wards/84/124
secondlife://Wards/84/124 - 64 sq. m. - Nov 1, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$2,000
secondlife://Wards/92/116
secondlife://Wards/92/116 - 64 sq. m. - Nov 1, 2005 -

mpeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$2,000
secondlife://Wards/84/100
secondlife://Wards/84/100 - 64 sq. m. - Nov 1, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$500
secondlife://Quentin/42/42
secondlife://Quentin/42/42 - 16 sq. m. - Nov 1, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$1,000
secondlife://Mullett/90/148 - 32 sq. m. - Nov 1, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$500
secondlife://Brown/6/146 - 16 sq. m. - Nov 5, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$1,500
secondlife://Achlya/124/100 - 48 sq. m. - Nov 6, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine
secondlife://Falcata/10,26 - 80 sq. m. - Nov 6, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine
secondlife://Falcata/24/22 - 64 sq. m. - Nov 6, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$1,000
secondlife://Falcata/24/26 - 32 sq. m. - Nov 6, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$5,000
secondlife://Oculea/20/232 - 128 sq. m. - Nov 10, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$16,000
secondlife://Oculea/72/208 - 512 sq. m. - Nov 15, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$2,000
secondlife://Ess/144/230 - 64 sq. m. - Nov 15, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
(Don't Buy This Land)
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$320,000
secondlife://Baird/144/80 - 1,024 sq. m. - Nov 21, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Re-Elect Jimmy Carter
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$32,000
secondlife://Oculea/48/240 - 1,024 sq. m. - Nov 15, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Re-Elect Jimmy Carter
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$2,000
secondlife://Ess/132/228 - 64 sq. m. - Nov 15, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Re-Elect Jimmy Carter
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$20,000
secondlife://Lugubris/16/34 - 64 sq. m. - Nov 16, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
End the illegal war in Iraq.
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$1,500
secondlife://Calleta/250/66 - 48 sq. m. - Oct 28, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
End the illegal war in Iraq
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$1,500
secondlife://Lippert/2/40 - 32 sq. m. - Oct 28, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Support Our Troops. End the Illegal War in Iraq.
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$90,000
secondlife://Rosieri/58/64 - 7,232 sq. m. - Oct 17, 2005 -

Impeach Bush!
Support Our Troops. End the Criminal War in Iraq.
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$500
secondlife://Kuula/194/22 - 16 sq. m. - Oct 18, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Support Our Troops. End the Illegal War in Iraq.
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$500
secondlife://Lonsdale/226/234 - 16 sq. m. - Oct 18, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Support Our Troops. End the Illegal War in Iraq.
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$1,000
secondlife://Wards/98/100 - 32 sq. m. - Oct 23, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Restore US credibility. End the illegan war in Iraq.
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$1,000
secondlife://Yora/72/106 - 32 sq. m. - Oct 28, 2005 -

Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$2,000
secondlife://Chaska/56/74 - 64 sq. m. - Oct 30, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Support Our Troops. End the Illegal War in Iraq.
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$2,000
secondlife://Chaska/56/66 - 64 sq. m. - Oct 30, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Support Our Troops. End the Criminal War in Iraq. Restore US Credibility.
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$3,000
secondlife://Uzume/70/52 - 96 sq. m. - Oct 23, 2005 -

Impeach Bush
Support Our Troops. End the Criminal War in Iraq. Restore US Credibility.
Owned by Lazarus Divine - Buy for L$1,000
secondlife://Verbier/54/172 - 32 sq. m. - Nov 1, 2005 -


I note that some of these don't have any entries in the Snapzilla "Snapshots Here" feature.

Seconded! *applause*

TY, but I'm not going anywhere. I'm just telling LL where they can shove my tier payments. (in a nice way of course )

Chip, one could see this as a mere annoyance that adults are supposed to not be annoyed by.

But other people see it as something seriously hurting the society we all live in, with implications that anyone, anytime, can come along and do this, and do it to an even greater degree. That is not a good thing for the society.

Taken from that light, one could consider it the responsible, adult thing to do to discuss it and try to figure out how to handle it, and one could consider it the childish, irresponsible thing to say, well, just ignore it.

Yes, there is his freedom, and I would never disallow his freedom to put up a sign with the message on it, or several signs, or whatever, but the signs and the message are not the primary thing here. He's using them to grief and extort, and that is the primary thing, from my point of view.

No, I don't think it will be the end of the world if the Lindens do nothing and this thing just carries on and carries on, and more people just get innured to it. But it will lessen the enjoyment of SL, lessen people's confidence in the Lindens, and contribute to the decline of SL. But you know, that's not the end of the world, either. It's just sort of a shame.

coco

I thought Lizbeth had the best suggestions, and they're things that we can do that don't depend on LL. Don't buy the land. Don't give the guy any more of the spotlight. Do your best to make sure he doesn't have an opportunity to buy any land you might be selling. That all seems like common sense to me. If you want to be pro-active about it, you could lobby people with land for sale to not allow this guy to buy any of it.

Hello once again all.

I would first of all like to point out that LL has given me the answer I asked for,even though as was pointed out to me AFTER I had asked, they had already made thier position known. A BIG thank you to Robin for humoring me and answering that annoying question yet again. Sometimes repetition helps.

And the original answer said:

So, now that we have heard from the big L's, let's see if it actually IS extortion:
(keep in mind these are RL definitions so the phrase "criminal offense" doesn't technically apply here as I am aware of it)

Yes, he is supposedly obtaining money from this (I say supposedly because i've not heard how much he has managed to make off of this.). However, he is not threatening or inflicting harm to anything. If someone can provide HARD PROOF that his signs have cost them business I would be very interested to see it and would strongly urge them to show this to the Lindens. So, since it's not extortion, let's take a look at price gouging:

Could it be? Likely. But price gouging is not against the ToS that I have seen, and as noted in the last line of the quote, he has the right to charge whatever he wants for the land. Yes, its unfair but he isn't FORCING anyone to buy his land! Unethical is NOT illegal in all cases. I believe that leaves us with one last definition and that is of Profiteering:

So there we have it. If anything, the guy is profiteering, which again is not against ToS. This is not about his free speech, which I think we can all agree he has a right to, no matter how controversial the message. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop calling this extortion!!! Until someone can show proof that he is harming someone's business, this is not what it is. Technically he could come back on some of these people and accuse them of libel, but that's a mess that we really don't want to get into. It's bad enough that our First Lives are filled with litigation, let's not bring the 'suing wars' to SL as well.

I believe the next step would be to determine what, if anything, can be done by the community as a whole to see that our Second Lives aren't further interrupted by this. I refer you to a post written earlier to start with:


This is probably the best plan that I have seen to date, and one that many have alluded to before. Cut off his lifeline by NOT buying his land. In the end, it won't even matter if he DOES continue to buy land because then he'll be stuck paying tier on <insert massive number here> sqm of land that he can't get rid of short of taking the signs down, lowering the price and egaging in normal real estate like the rest of us do.

The best part about this whole plan?

IT REQUIRES NO ACTION ON ANYONE'S PART.

Sit on your bum along with me and watch his tier payment skyrocket. If nothing else, we will be able to chuckle about it down the road. Then we can go to him and offer to buy his land at fair market value.....FMV being $0L!

Also, a quick question: Has anyone managed to track this guy's transactions? I personally would like to know some statistics:
How much land he owns
What he bought it for
How long he has had it for (ie: his turnover time)
What he is selling for (his markup)
Granted, it would take a lot of 'footwork' to gather this and whoever did it would have to make sure that they were NOT harassing or stalking.

According to public "About Land..." information in-game, there is a group "Divine Land Holdings" (or something like that). Mr. Impeach is the sole officer of that group which held just shy of an entire sim (~60k m^2) a few days ago. There may be other holding groups and one cannot find what the individual AV holds.

If only the tools supported this easily. As you cannot mark a parcel "don't sell to Joe Foo" this is asking all land sellers to arrange all sales outside the system. The likelihood of this happening is related to spheres of snow and subterranean hot places.

but look at SuezanneC's entry a few posts up. you can cover a lot of ground and keep your tier low when you are dealing in 16, 32, 64 sqm parcels. i don't think tier payments are going to starve this one. he has gamed the system perfectly - only action from LL can put an end to his shenanigans.

I agree those are good ideas, Chip.

That's a lot of good and careful thinking there, Jeanette. Still, I would say that - overall - it's obvious this guy is doing bad things with malintent.

But it's also obvious he has no shortage of lawyers in these forums. I appreciate all the careful thinking that goes into considering the case; I just think it's kind of ridiculous. You could mount just as good cases for garden-variety griefers - the difference is no one would buy it.

Bottom line is, this is a harmful thing, and it's obvious.

But - if this guy's rights to do a harmful thing are paramount over all other considerations (such as paying players' land values), then so be it.

Unfortunately, this sort of bending over backwards to allow this sort of thing just means that more and more of SL will be hostage to this sort of thing and the people who do this sort of thing in the future. Quality of life goes down for all, and the victimizers have all the rights. That doesn't auger well for the average player. Sorry, folks, that's just how I see it.

coco

Probably, but it seems silly to demand action on something when people aren't willing to take any themselves. And really it's not that difficult.

Sad but very true, Coco. Which is why I'm opting out of the land game (and my tier US$ to LL) as long as LL takes this stance.

How can i help besides just banning him from my land? I really dislike and want to put a end to this. He even bought land next to some of my best friends just to post those Viral-like signs. Since the L's can't do anything, it's up to us. Banning him from each of our land will only accomplish anything if we ALL do it. And with P2P teleporting it's not like he needs to enter them anyway. I have land i wish to sell right next to mine. It's somewhere around 750sq m. but i'm not going to place it up for this guy to buy it... The door to my workshop faces it. It's bad enough i got a Jedi Sith Lord living nearby...

Set the price you want on it but set it for sale to yourself. It'll still show on the map as land for sale. In the land description put something like "to buy please contact Frost White." It's a bit more hassle but you can screen your potential buyers that way. Make sure you have IM's to email enabled so you can get back to people who inquire more quickly.

Hehe i seen these signs when i go shopping. I even read previus threads about it. I'm glad my home's on a island sim... But i still wish i could do something. I abuse reported it once. But those automated emails tell you nothing.

LOL frost. *hands you a can of light saber repellant*

The real life rule book on this involves volumes of legistaltion and interpretation of statues and regulations as well as the core principals of free speech and due process. Yes governements in RL do this all the time. They also pay a small fortune to do it, including, should they wish to take land paying fair market value. Thus the comparisons drawn to the RL situation don't really work, unless linden is willing to gurantee me constitutional due process for a taking, they are free to do as they want.

They have good reasons for not acting in this case, and are following them. There are good arguments for why they should do somthing, but its a choice, and they have made a decision.