If SL isn't a game....

It does? I'm simply giving my analysis of the issue at hand here. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy it. I wouldn't be here if I didn't! Think of it this way: Would somebody think that much and go into that much analytical detail about something they didn't enjoy or have fun with?


I am one of the unwashed masses as well, and I have only had one negative experience with a Linden, which was when I was with some people, and found a Linden on Azure Islands, and asked him something, and he said something like - I can't even remember, but a brush-off reply and poofed. I didn't take it personally cause it wasn't even an important thing.

My experiences with Lindens have all been very positive (well except that one time, which doesn't even count really) and certainly the Lindens are part of the world of SL. They are, in fact, more accessible than any other game people I have known, and I've said so repeatedly.

My analysis of what's happening, though, is just an analysis of what I think is happening. Nothing against the Lindens particularly. "Tiger by the tail" sort of analysis.


Yes, to all of the above about fun, except the first sentence. I don't feel that people are not having fun. I do think that too much stick and not enough carrot will swing the balance into "not enough fun" if they aren't careful.

People often said the same thing about TSO, by the way, that the fun was what you make of it. That's true to a degree, but again - it's the carrot and stick thing. TSO had hardly any carrots compared with the updates we get here, but they also had almost no sticks. We keep getting sticks. And in TSO, playing only with the same old carrots all the time got old.


Well, this last bit here, there is no sense really in me trying to discuss this part of it with you, and you really don't want me to. So I will only say that when I work I work hard, and when I play, I play hard, cause to me work and play are virtually synonymous. That you don't like my notions is fine, but I will continue to state them, precisely because I do enjoy SL and want to see it grow. I will give my analysis of SL as long as I am involved in SL.

When it stops being fun or seeming worthwhile to me, I will stop playing it, and I will stop talking about it on the forums. I no longer discuss TSO on the forums, although I play TSO every Friday night, because I'm no longer truly involved.

coco

Go back and reread your original post, and then reread the things I said that you said. You did say them, and I'd go and quote them, except, well...um...I have a hard time quoting two different posts....(psst, Enabran, if you were a good leader of minions, you would teach me how to do that *growls* jk! jk!) Soo...what I was replying to were comments you were making about how not calling it a game allows Lindens to not have to care about the unwashed masses, about how by not calling it a game allows the Lindens to play favorites with no guilt..how by continuing to make the changes they were, they're in fact going to make it no fun etc etc. Yet, you're in here all the time talking about changes that YOU want to see made. I was responding that to me, the changes you talk about, would also create more sticks and make SL less fun to me.

And Coco, I don't mind you replying to what I say. I am interested in what you have to say. But you have a tendency, and I don't know if it's that you write off something and don't read it over first, or are stream of consciousnessing when you write a long post like that, but you say things and then when someone confronts you on them, you say you didn't say them. Then you rephrase or admit that you didn't mean it that way. To be honest, it's frustrating as heck.

Because you have pleased me today, I will provide a Fisking Tutorial for the benefit of yourself and other readers who are dazzled by this highly effective and sometimes enraging technique.

(The examples and screenshots I will use are taken from Mac OS X and Safari. However, the technique works the same way in Windows XP with IE or Firefox -- just make the appropriate leaps when menus don't look exactly the same.)

To Fisk a single SL forums post:

First, select the entire post you wish to Fisk. Copy it into your clipboard (Edit > Copy)



Now, trim away all of the text except the first point you want to respond to. Be cautious not to damage the QUOTE tags. Using QUOTE ensures maximum readability and credibility for your post. Write your reply to the first point below the block of quoted text.



Once you have replied to the first point, hit enter a few times and paste the original post back into the editing box (Edit > Paste). Repeat the text trimming, again being careful not to damage the quote tags.



Repeat as needed.


To Fisk multiple posts:

Open a new web browser window (File > New Window) and navigate to the thread and post you wish to quote. Right-click the Quote button and choose "Open Link in a New Window."



From there, copy the text in the new post editing box over to your current post.

(If the thread you're quoting has been locked, as is often the case when quoting troublesome individuals, copy and paste the text of their post enclosing the quote in quote tags like so: [ QUOTE=Person's Name]Text[/QUOTE].)

When you're all ready to post, make sure to preview your work and make sure all your tags are formatted properly. If everything looks good, you're ready to go!

Yay, ty Enabran! *must read this and try in awhile* lol

I'm sorry... say all you want about Ulrika (fools) I still think Enabran has won at the forums. He at least is the winner for 05!

Well supposedly he has a Mob and Minions. Does Ulrika? I mean that MIGHT be the deciding factor.

/bow

I learned from the best. Here's to you, Schwan.

edit: Also, check out Schwanson's fun SL is a Pizza post.

/130/28/56452/6.html#post598028

Yes, I did say them. It was to explain my thinking behind what I think may be behind some of the changes going on. Yes, I always read it all over first, and read it over again after it is posted, then usually go back to make corrections. (Notice nearly every post is edited.) I think you are inclined to read my thoughts on this issue and come to some rather tenuous and wide-sweeping conclusions, such as I'm not having any fun. I'm not taking back what I said; I'm explaining to you what I didn't say.

This whole thread is rather of an analytical bent, and I presented my thoughts along those lines. Not the entireity of all my thoughts on everything as regards SL, but my thinking behind this platform stuff right now, for this thread. Yes, I think the Lindens are probably overwhelmed by us unwashed masses. Yes, if they keep up with the sticks and not the carrots, it will be less fun. I think that's just human nature. In fact, this is the ONLY environment I have ever been in where people on the boards cheered as things were taken away, and asked for more to be removed! And yes, this notion of "platform" - especially as defined by others here and used to explain the changes - indicates that is the justification/reasoning for it.

It is the reasoning given for just about EVERYTHING. Taking away the classifieds? Why? Well, because this is a PLATFORM, of course. Taking away stipends? Why yes, we should want that, too, because this is a platform. Charge for events listing? Yes, because this is a platform. Etc., etc., etc. So - it's all fairly theoretical, the things I am saying here in this thread. But it does make sense.

So I DO mean all of what I said (today at least; things may change and I will change my thinking with the changes). But it is speculation and theoretical regarding the philosophies of games vs platforms, and just my thoughts on it all. But they ARE my thoughts on it all, and I've had them for a little while now, and that is what the thread is about, so it was my opportunity to express them.

Maybe the changes I advocate would create more sticks for you, but I don't see how. (If I did, I wouldn't be advocating them.) Equal opportunity for all - that to me is a basic in any environment, and I don't see how it would make things worse for anyone. It just gives everyone a shot at things.

Keeping the Classifieds - I think it is kind of a stretch to think that keeping those hurts us any. The only advantage to getting rid of them, as far as I can see, is to have fewer forums to moderate. If it is that big a deal to their budget, I wish they would just can the whole site, rather than suffer this slow death by inches. (I speak of my discovery tonight that I misunderstood the announcement, and they are getting rid of all the classifieds except new products.)

People on these boards may cheer and applaud as things are taken away, but the people I meet in the game don't.

If it's any consolation, I've figured out that they are apparently going to keep going in this direction. I've figured out that everything is temporary, and just because there is something I like and use today doesn't mean that that something will be there tomorrow. Everything I benefit from now will probably go away, and I should expect it to. And that is because it is a PLATFORM. And certainly not a country where equal opportunity for all can be expected (though we have made significant advances there!) but a company.

With this point of view, I will suffer fewer disappointments, and, overall, care less. Caring less, I will probably talk less. But since I'm fairly good at separating forums from games, I will probably continue to have fun in the game, until something comes along that seems more promising. Something similar to SL, but not so predicated on taking things away.

coco

P.S. I don't know how to quote from more than one post either.

OMFG Enabran you are using a Mac? A Mac?


/end love affair

Hahaha. I use a PC at work.

edit: The company gave me a laptop. I use it mostly to play Half-Life 2.

Sweet talk and empty promises won't save us now.

here's my (hopefully humorous) take on the topic: SLOG

(click on the image for a larger version)

Well. To explain further where I'm coming from, I'll explain how I think of SL, which is also my whole thought process on platform vs game etc etc etc.

To me, SL is like a hyper advanced hybrid of chat and game communities and the internet as a whole. During the days that I was a part of chat rooms, they were much like SL is, they had their subcultures, their own mores, etc. There was no goal to a chat room. If someone came along and helped the moderators change rules or became a moderator, so be it. But others could come in and use a chat room solely as a social function. Then, along comes online games with their super advanced graphics and creation functions (well some of them at least), that now allowed users to interact in either a 2d world or a 3d world, depending on the game. Now even more subcultures were introduced. The internet did not start out as a moneymaking tool either, but people saw an opportunity and grabbed it. Now, you almost need a website to succeed in a business, and many websites are businesses.

People _do_ start SL the same, with the same advantages and the same recognition level. I have a friend who started two days before me. She knows Photoshop, I don't. Pure and simple. She has a good business sense, I don't have anything to sell so my business sense doesn't even come into play. She now designs and sells etc within the game and is doing pretty well for herself. I have no idea if LL has ever "favored" her, but you know, it wouldn't bother me. We both started SL on the same playing field. The environment allowed us to go our own ways. I have seen others who started around the same time as me (you are one Coco) who have gone different ways and chose to do different things within their SL. I have met people that have started around the same time as some of your big name creators and forum people who use SL solely as a social place and consequently make no money off of SL. Consequently, Linden Labs probably don't know who they are. Do I think this is unfair? No. Here's why. If you have the skill and ability to make yourself well known IW through some methods or means, and do so, and Linden Labs learns your name? Well, good! I mean, they have how many users now? Are they expected to instant message each one personally and ask them what special skills, abilities and things they are bringing into SL? I should think not! I mean, poor Jeska, having to moderate us, and then IM each new person that joins each day. The woman would need to go on drugs to get it all done.

Because SL, unlike other environments (i.e. your games like WoW, EQ, TSO etc.) has brought the entrepeneurship right into the environment, instead of forcing people to either a) go to outside sources {i.e. Ebay etc} or b) skirt or break rules in order to make money, it actually will and does change the environment. As much as you may feel the United States is a democracy, it is in actuality a capitalistic society. As much as Marx and socialism may look really good on paper and seem a utopia, in reality they don't exist very well. Second Life, due to having the ability to make money right there in front of our faces, makes it a capitalistic society. This can either be unfortunate or fortunate.

Some of the examples you've talked about them taking away? Actually does further your goal of "leveling the playing field" so to speak. Here's one and here's how. The ratings bonus on the stipend. I have been IW since April. I have a lot of ratings for someone there so long, probably around 100. I see people who joined in January or February who have in the multi hundreds worth of ratings. This created an unfair advantage when it came to ratings bonuses on the stipends. These people were getting more each week than me! Simply because they were "smart" enough to come to SL sooner than I was. By getting rid of this, SL has leveled the playing fields of those getting huge allowances from the time before the price on ratings went up.

You may have used to forums a lot (i.e. classifieds) when you first got IW, but how many do really? I mean I used to post and look at the Help Wanted forum, and boy, that thing hardly moved. When people spoke of the classifieds in the threads in regards to them, they mainly referred to the New Products. I'd far rather that Linden listened, looked at what was being said and realized that the majority of people were discussing New Products, so therefore came up with a way to do what they wanted or needed to do and to still provide something that users were saying that they wanted. This is better than merely saying "fock it, we don't care" and taking the entire thing away.

In any platform, game or otherwise, or any institution really...you come under the rules and regulations of the governing body. In this case Linden Labs. By agreeing to a TOS or by signing a policy handbook (in the case of say a private university) you are agreeing to abiding by the rules and regulations of that governing body. In effect, you give up certain of your rights to exist within that community. It was the same in TSO really, and EA did change things to suit what they wanted or needed or thought would make their business grow. Why should SL be any different?

/ends her probably entirely too long post

p.s., then Enabran helped you too! woohoo!

Well, except that's not quite true. In WoW and EQ, certainly, the expectation is that you'll earn money in game by killing gribblies, which anyone can do. Buying gold is essentially just a form of "cheating" your way ahead in the game.

With SL, and what appears to be Linden's plans, that's not the same. They appear to be saying that they want paying real money for Lindens to become the standard, with earning money by selling stuff the exclusive preserve of the fortunate talented individuals.

The problem with this is that there's effectively a "minimum" level of in-game items that people would want to buy in order to make it worth participating in SL as opposed to any random text chat service of your choice. What's the point of devoting extra CPU time, bandwidth, and possibly money to getting a graphical social experience when all it lets you do is feel bad because others' avs look more like what you want to than you do? Why be in a persistent graphical online world if you just get to fly around other people's locked-up houses and through malls of stuff you can't afford?

There are several ways this could go. a) is that all the ones who are prepared to buy Lindens to get that minimum level do so, and the others stamp their feet and leave, Linden Labs quietly cheering their departure because they would otherwise be taking up game bandwidth without furthering the Lindens' goal.

b) is that they ignore the graphical interface entirely and do everything in text purely to get the social value of connections between people, which is all that is left of SL once the building and buying are stripped away. Once a social more to ignore the graphical interface is developed all the limits are lifted in that group. I've seen that: someone comments that they wish they could afford a particular item or outfit and gets a response from the group that "well, save your money; we'll just play like you have it anyway."

c) is the "folkie group" option, where newer and less talented users build anyway and then buy and sell their own (lower quality) creations at low prices, but do so within social groups composed entirely of average or mediocre creators so that they develop their own internal quality scale, motivated by the idea that they can sell their own stuff on the same terms. This is not too uncommon in real terms: "Yea, her song sold a million, but she's Britney Spears. What's really good is that my CD sold a hundred copies when I'm just an ordinary person!" As time passed, of course, some of those mediocre creators would get better by practice and they'd be the possibility of a "second generation" of content creators.

However, cranking up the cost of doing any business at all (such as advertising) is hurting the possibility of c), and if stipends were ever eliminated c) would be wiped off the map.

Sorry anyone (Khamon) if I offended you with my previous post. That wasn't the intent. SL is what you make of it; if you treat it like a game, its a game. If you treat it like a platform, its a platform. For many, its both.

Why label something so wonderful and try to stick it in a box?

Its like rhubarb - when used as a vegetable, its a vegetable. When used as a fruit, its a fruit. And let's face it, its total nonsense... RHUBARB!

Regards,

-Flip

Hehe! this i can agree with ya Yumi! To me I will never go so far as to take SL beyond a game because plain and simply i will never care for anyone/anything in there enough to try to make a living off of! If i could make a job, and support myself RL...which could never happen cause i'm a loser...There will never be a reason for me to EVER buy land/work for people/Give a damn to take comments by people in game personally <never ever will do that>/or take second life beyond what it is!

As some have said SL is a holding place for people to provide products both RL and in SL....but COME ON!! THATS JUST MORE ADVERTISING! That does not make it reality, it makes it a newspaper or a Tv, and there's nothing on tv i watch other then cartoons cause reality sucks!

I don't think there will ever be a way for people to convince me otherwise that SL is just a game because i never take anything seriously. I take Project Entropia more seriously then I ever will Second Life because it runs off my RL bank account. I;ve made over hundreds of dollars just selling sweat/guns/and crates of fake items then i ever will in second life. I don't provide any services, i merely give away free stuff, and enjoy exploring and seeing how this silly world changes. I pray they never take those two things away from me ever!

OK, Katja, now we're cookin'! Er, talkin'!

1. Regarding equal opportunity for all, and why we need it in every respect:

I agree, we do all start out the same, and where we go with that depends on what we as individuals do with that.

I'm talking about opportunities that should be available to everyone, and could be availble to everyone, but aren't. And we HAVE made progress on that front!

For example: Recently a request for promotional items was posted. Because it was posted, anyone could submit their items for consideration. There was equal opportunity for all to be considered for that.

The other way of doing it would be for them to just think about who they knew, and pick one of them. If you keep up a system in which you only use those people who have come to the attention of the Lindens, then others will lose out on the opportunity, and new talent will be overlooked. Plus there may be others actually more eager to do the work than the ones who were picked.

The easiest, most obvious, and fairest solution, and the solution which works best on many levels, is to post notice of what is being looked for. Those who want to be involved can apply for consideration.

That is all! That is all I'm talking about! There's no need for the Lindens to get to know each and every one of their 60k members to know what their talents are. All they have to do is post a REQUEST. Not only does that make the opportunity open and equal for all, but it allows the Lindens to become aware of people they wouldn't otherwise know about, and gives them a much bigger pool from which to choose and thus vary their offerings. Variety is always good.

This concept should apply to everything - from pictures on the web pages to outside businesses like Wells Fargo.

Because LL is improving on these fronts, I doubt that they will just hand out a 40k contract for someone like Wells Fargo again without making sure others have an opportunity. This is apparently what the Developer's Directory is all about. (I'm still trying to get info on that to see if it is something I should apply to, or better suited just to teams.)

2. Regarding the removal of bonus stipends, I don't believe I ever spoke out against that. There was good reason for removing that, because they had already tweaked its cost, so it was no longer something that any new player could achieve to the extent and in the same way that players around before the change in cost could.

3. After our posts of last night, I started thinking again about what you said and why you reacted to my post as you did. I think it is my usual problem - that of talking about problems more than about what's good. (Reminds me of April's suggestion that we all try to post something positive for every negative.)

What you read in this thread were my musings on the concept of "platform" and how it may affect the Lindens' actions and correlate with their (understandable) desires. I always think about these sorts of issues, and always speak about them, and never censor myself in doing so, and also never expect a defensive reaction. It is my academic background that makes me this way.

But if one speaks up mainly only about problems, then it can give the impression that one is unhappy! Or not having fun! Of course, concerning certain unresolved issues, I'm not happy or having fun with those. So when I speak about them, or muse about them, it is not a positive thing to hear.

So I will try again to bear this in mind, that these sorts of posts can give this impression, and try to include sentences in them to offset that impression. But if I weren't having fun in the game, I wouldn't still be here, that's for sure!

Last night, for instance, this guy IM'd me about one of my houses. He was a newer player, and I went to help him. The whole thing was very, very satisfying! I just love making players happy with my creations, just as I used to love making players happy by doing Game Show Channel in Sims. There just isn't a better feeling.

4. And that, by the way, Lecktor Hannibal, is why I don't join the mentors or live helpers. Like many players here, whenever I run into a new player, I pretty much do perform the mentor bit, right down to, "I hope you enjoy it and welcome to Second Life!"

I already don't have time to make or do even 5% of what all I'd like to, and there is the other part of that, which is helping people to use what I make. That, in addition to helping new players in general, pretty much takes up all my time. (Aside from playing Bingo, sightseeing, messing with my inventory, and hanging out with friends, of course.) So I figure I do my mentoring part; it just isn't as part of the group.

coco

Oh, and to append my previous post - for those of you who think SL is only a game, consider:

(1) I use SL to train employees at my RL company much more effectively than we could pre-SL.
(2) There are private sims for everything from private companies, educators, the military, and helping people with disabilities.
(3) avalon. If you haven't checked out what they're doing... then don't even comment. SL has helped create Marvin from the latest Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy movie, and concepts with the upcoming Narnia series of films.

If those 3 things are a game, then correct me. SL may be, in part, a game... or more accurately, entertainment. But its also so much more.

Regards,

-Flip

I agree with Yumi's analysis entirely, with special note of this part:

------
"c) is the "folkie group" option, where newer and less talented users build anyway and then buy and sell their own (lower quality) creations at low prices, but do so within social groups composed entirely of average or mediocre creators so that they develop their own internal quality scale, motivated by the idea that they can sell their own stuff on the same terms. This is not too uncommon in real terms: "Yea, her song sold a million, but she's Britney Spears. What's really good is that my CD sold a hundred copies when I'm just an ordinary person!" As time passed, of course, some of those mediocre creators would get better by practice and they'd be the possibility of a "second generation" of content creators.

"However, cranking up the cost of doing any business at all (such as advertising) is hurting the possibility of c), and if stipends were ever eliminated c) would be wiped off the map."
-----

She has kind of copped to my own business plan, but with one difference. I want those players without a lot of money to not only be able to buy products, but to get quality products for their money. I want the average player to get uber quality and enjoyment from a product that isn't out of their reach. (As in the real world, a $5,000 designer purse isn't always that much better than a medium-priced purse, that's for sure. There's a limit on how good a purse can be, after all.)

Cranking up the cost of doing business at all would definitely cut out lots of people, though, and if they did away with stipends, the Lindens might as well give up on SL, imo. For all the reasons Yumi has explained.

coco

You bring up a good point, but remember You are using it to work others, as for me, I never use any this nor care ever to so for me this is a game, as everyone knows you cannot define what another sees. For YOU it is not a game, but i dont do crap so for me it is ^_^ Just enjoy your time while doing these products, cause you dont know when or what may be last day of it

Ah, but you're not accounting for my previous point of "SL is how you use it." If you use it as a game, sure, its a game. But its also much more than that to others. I think we're agreeing here, I just like to point out that to me, SL is entertainment and more. But when I state what SL is to others, I say its part game, part job, part platform, part waste of time, part philosophical wandering.

Regards,

-Flip

hehe! *huggles Flip*

Oh, SL is a game alright... but you're not the ones playing it. You are the *game*. The Lindens are the players. We're their personal ant farm

*huggles Eggy too* You just realizing that now? We play their game and test their stuff and use their tools to create things, that they can take away and use ay any time ^_^ MUHAHAHA!!

I probably deleted some of what I'm replying to, but eh, the gist is the same.

I know lots of creators that don't read the forums. I know creators that only read new products, and not any other forum. I know some that only read off topic and not any other forum. So when the Lindens post this, should they be posting it in world? And if they're posting it IW, is that the smartest use of their resources? Because suddenly, instead of working on inventory loss, say, they must then turn their employee man power to reviewing and examining each "entry". If there was a way to compromise this, so that maximum potential, that would be cool.

You used the removal of stipends in one of your posts as an example of LL taking away a "carrot". Hence, my response to why this removal could be a "carrot" instead of the "stick" that you were implying or calling it.

And Coco, I don't know where you obtained your academic background, cause mine was the exact opposite. You were free to express your ideas, but by expressing them you were allowing the freedom of attack and debate, communication and conversation about them.