Is Second Life a game?

And the couter case could be made stating; an approach like that would be stupid. Why do what everyone else is doing, why not be unique? There are thousands of "games" out there, there is only one creation that is just like SL (the next closest thing would be the internet).

I respect your decision, Darren. If you change your mind, the forums will still be here.

coco

I said a case could be made. I didn't say I was going to bother making it.

coco

I agree - SL is the heir apparent to the web in many ways, and also to Active Worlds (which is not referred to as a game generally, so why is SL?). Treating it like a game would be quite detrimental to the growth of SL, and the potential that it has to be so many things, none of which have anything to do with a game. I am glad that Linden Lab has kept their vision consistent and steered SL in that direction.

And I never had faith that you would.


My *point* still stands though.

He wasn't talking about one retort, even though it wasn't necessary to explain in that people did "get it" and chose to ignore her intent. Who said persecuted? Rather overdframatic. My guess would be that Darren might have found it tiresome and that the only thing he lacked confidence in was the likelihood of friendly discourse. Just because peolple are turned off by things doesn't mean they've run off upset and hysterical. What I read seemed to be more of a simple, "Never mind."

I think its different things to different people.. the closest similar thing I've come across was a MOO.... same openness, same general things you could do.. I've often said to friends 'Get a MOO, now make it 3d..' and they instantly *get* Second Life.

And just like a MOO, we have these debates as to 'what it is'.

I think its in the eye of the beholder... what you do in Second Life, and where you want to go with it defines what it is to you.

And what it is to you can and will be different from what it is to someone else... who is right? who is wrong? Both and neither.

It's like arguing 'Brussel sprouts are great' to someone who doesn't like them.. no matter what you bring up - from cullenary preparation to nutritional value won't change the fact that the other person doesn't like them.

I can see where others see it as something other vastly more serious... I, however, am not a serious person.. I can see where people think it's going to be this grand Metaverse... I, however, thought Snowcrash was a big pile of pooh... I see a vast difference in what SL is to different people - and I see that for them all these things are true...

Your definition is shaped by what you do, and what your expectations are.

These things are different for each person - thats the great thing about an open experience - you chose your own goals... None are right, none are wrong, they are only different.

Everyone sees it differently, everyone defines it differently.. What you do, what you enjoy, and how you see the world doesn't invalidate anyone elses vision or experience..

And that goes for both camps.

Siggy.

It wasn't specifically about Darren, it was a more general observation about people being "run off" from the forums. In any forums, you have to be prepared for dissent, even strong dissent, especially on topics that are quite polar, like "is SL a game?". The forums may not be his or her cup of tea, but that doesn't mean there is something wrong with the forums - or that there was anything wrong with this thread or the responses in it.

Dem's fighting words bud.

In my opinion, Second Life ceased to be a game when people started making real cash off of it.

Very well said, Siggy.

There is very little difference TODAY between them. And I replied to what she SAID, not what you are inferring she MEANT, to wit:



The phrase 'when it all started', I took to mean literally when the Internet started. Apparently, you choose to interpret it as 'When the World Wide Web started'. I chose my interpretation because of the word 'all', which, in context, would mean more than simply the topic at hand or the noun referred to in the paragraph as primary.

But even if I decided to agree with you on reading, "when it all started" (The World Wide Web), it was an attempt not to commercialize things, but to allow users an interface like the newly introduced 'Windows' software. The first tools to accomplish this were 'TIA' (The Internet Application) and 'Slipknot' (which translated markup to graphics).

Additionally, "when it all started" there were very, very few people actually using it, and there wasn't a single one of them that was, in any way, "really not so sure" about whether or not it was a game. In fact, it never was a game and no one around "when it all started" would ever say otherwise.

I conclude the poster is of the 'AOL' generation, circa 1985, whose only exposure to being online is using some tanta of a service like AOL and for whom, terms like Gopher, Archie, Veronica, WAIS, etc. can only mean a small mammal, characters from Archie Comics, and a blank stare.

No offense, but it bugs me when people assume they know something. It takes so little effort to actually know, and yet, consistently, you find some who will just do the technicolor yawn and say anything... usually hoping there's no one around to correct them.

Sad.

I disagee. This is like saying iTunes is the heir apparent to Record Label CDs. You may see the potential (or think you see it), but you've got an entire world to convince/convert that is quite content to continue making money as they are... and for whom adopting your perspective would mean a level of change that would kill their business.

Let's just say the RIAA would beg to differ, and only uses it as a sideline revenue stream. They continue to fight for segmentation and the discrete systems that support their current/primary revenue stream and I doubt seriously (short of a sudden, dramatic precedent in Law) this will change.



Why is SL? Because that is what it is. Sorry, the truth is the truth, no matter how one tries to avoid it. LL came out of the chute with the possiblity of being many things, the thing you see them as being one of them. But much of anything's potential is trimmed by its existence in the world.

The weight of factors external to SL becomes, over time, an influence upon SL and effectively serves to limit what SL may become.

This is why correct market placement matters, why terminology and how you refer to things matters, and why inconsistency is lethal.

No offense to LL, but they are inconsistent to the point of fickleness. It is bizarre.

People are cultured to seek the surface, form a rapid opinion/classification, and move on. LL has not in any manner created a surface that looks like something other than a game.

Or are you honestly trying to tell me that their homepage for SL doesn't look like just another of any other manner of GAME being marketed online? (Come on, Cris, be honest here.... Chick in armor wielding a BFG, people dancing and sexing in front of a live video feed, aliens and transformers and tinies prancing through virtual meadows and urban sprawls?)

Add to this, much of the world will judge "what SL is" by what LL permits to occur within it. I really don't think I need elaborate on why this has impacted how SL is perceived.



(cough) LL may have a consistent vision, but you damn sure wouldn't know it by the manner in which they are presenting that vision.

You are correct, however, presenting it as a game as they are currently IS detrimental to it growing. First and foremost because it literally cannot compete as a game. Secondly, because the market bias of 'being a game' effectively shunts any and all efforts to be anything but a game. Thirdly and most importantly, because no one who might be interested in the 'snowcrash effect' will take LL seriously enough to invest money in them so long as they demonstrate in their own marketing and advertising that they don't understand all of this well enough to either (a) avoid it, or (b) use it to their advantage.

You can argue the pros and cons of Brussel sprouts all day, but it doesn't alter the fact that they are vegetables...

Likewise, the ability to play games within SL does not make SL itself a game.

I'll stop considering SL a game when LL does. They can pay lip service to it being something much loftier all they like, and they can try and train themselves to never use "in-game" or "game-time" or any other easily understood phrase, but until they take their user base and their legitimate business concerns more seriously, I won't take SL seriously as anything other than a game, a hobby, a pass-time and an amusement. Protection against stolen content. Abuse reports for that stolen content not being ignored. Compensation for lost income due to LL bugs. This is only some of what I would expect from something loftier than a game.

But the main thing that keeps it a game for me... we're selling fake items to fake people. We're playing house. We may be cashing in our Lindens at the end of the day, but it's still play money until that point. When we start selling real items that we've really created, and start paying each other with real money, I'll take the business aspect more seriously.

LL is marketing it toward gamers, even if they choose to add, "but it's not really a game" on the end. And it's not just where they choose to market, it's how. They push the roleplaying aspect of SL all the time. "Be anything you want! Be a robot, a chick with purple wings, a vampire!" What part of that isn't a game?

"Gopher, Archie, Veronica" - gopher could mean an assistant, especially one whose job duties involved a lot of fetching; Archie could mean Archie Bunker, and Veronica could be a song by Elvis Costello.

Well, I already consider any form of making $US as a game, including work. I guess this means I should consider second life a game as well. Well, on second thought I guess I consider life a game too, though I do admit this might be because of psychological instability. I have no emotional investment in success or failure in life, a psychological problem that I think is close to being a psychopath. My opinion is you should just believe me the psychopath and realize that SL is a game like everything else that only ends when your heart stops or your internet connection disconnects.

Or not.

I have been so discusted by many things in connection to this "discussion"

I haven't bothered to log into my game in the past few days. Nor have I logged into the boards much.

What is the point, if I am no longer "playing?" I don't know that's probably why I haven't logged on. I don't know where I fit in all of this. It's not where I did fit, that much I feel is abundantly clear.

game not game, bottom line is LL just cost themselves and merchants customers by this PR bone head move.

Yeah I still shoot straight from the hip.

Cat

PS: I am else where playing a game.

Have fun. Hope it doesn't ruin your Christmas.

Elf Bowling?

And Enabran, I sincerely hope a Mack truck doesn't run over you.

What game are you playing, Catherine? Come on back here!

As for me, I'm dang THRILLED with this thread and the ones like it. When I first got on the game, and referred to the game on the forums, I was corrected repeatedly and none too nicely by several people, whose names I forget now. Being the kind of person I am, I just said said it WAS a game. But from then on I had the idea that I had made a huge faux pas, and everybody here was living in some sort of mass delusion regarding game vs platform, and if you used the word "game" everybody would be ready to lynch you.

I kept using it anyway, but I started to feel weird about using words that came naturally to me, and that, in turn, pissed me off. Such that mentally, the whole thing became a huge deal. I'd think about being "corrected," and feel weird, and use it anyway usually. All in all, a sucky thing.

But with these threads, I discover that BUNCHES of people - well-known names in the game, even - feel exactly as I do!

I love that! So perk up, Catherine, this is GOOD.

coco

Me too. Although the irony would be significant -- that happened to my father while I was still a toddler. (not sure it was a Mack, but it was one of those big freight liners that go cross country)

Oh, Enabran, I am so very sorry. I was just being mean cause you were mean, and I regret it deeply, I didn't mean to say something that hurtful. Please accept my apologies.

coco