Griefers cannot change?

While I'm not what I consider to be a griefer[1] myself, while browsing the forum, I get the impression that people believe that the users commonly referred to as griefers "cannot change." In fact, I've heard it from several people I respect, and whose creations I admire.

This is distressing, and here's why: those who would say such things must also believe that people never change behaviors, mature, et cetera. Swap "griefing" for anything else, positive or negative.

Lindens never change.

Furries never change.

Does anyone else but me see a problem? I saw someone who was nearly crucified "for defending griefers" in a thread because she supported a responsibly open, editable blacklist.

Stubbornness is not an admirable trait. It makes people dangerous; to themselves, and any group or cause they represent.

My $0.02.

[1] Due to my harsh opinions, I've been accused of griefing on occasion. I believe there is a distinct difference between annoying and griefing. Griefing ruins events, breaks things, and downs sims. Annoying is everything else -- the things you might not want to hear or see, but are generally inocuous.

People -CAN- change, but so far, from what I've seen, the people who have been banned for griefing who have posted messges here are doing things even within their messages that show that they're still either griefers, or they just don't know how to pay attention to rules, or they don't care about rules. When you have the type of people who would be the most likely to make a big deal out of having to take their shoes off to enter someone's home, they obviously don't care about rules, no matter how logical or illogical those rules are.

There are people who are not purposely trying to grief, but because they're so stubborn, or they give into peer pressure too easily, or they're just plain stupid (like the guy who set off nukes in a crowded club and tried to say that he didn't know it would be a bad thing), those people are not going to change anytime soon. They may change after huge series of events happen to them in their lives in RL, but it's not going to be over the period of a week or a month and probably not even a whole year. Those people have a lot to learn about life, and it may take years for them to finally figure out their bad patterns, if they ever do. Yes, people can change, but it's certainly not instant.

It's not that "griefers cannot change". Anyone can change. It's just that when someone has done wrong once, it's wise not to trust that person until and unless he or she has demosntrated definitively that his or her professed change is genuine. You can't just take the person's word for it when they say "Oh, I gave all that up, and I'm a nice guy now; I swear."

As for the "crucifiction" you mentioned, without delving too much into the details of a thread that is now closed, I'll just say that your description of what happened is a little off the mark.

Griefers can change.
Often, people who grief do change.
The problem is that some griefers are so prone to lying and trying to manipulate landowners into getting unbanned, that landowners have ceased to trust anything said by griefers, even if they have claimed to be reformed.

I personally have had some trust-destroying cases where griefers have demonstrated that they will do anything to get unbanned and no matter how much they plead innocence, one should not believe a word they say.

For example, awhile ago I got IMed by the founder of a group I had banned from my sim. The owner of the group was well spoken, seemed genuinely sorry and pleaded with me to unban his group from my sim. Unfortunately for this person, I had already seen logs of him not only being a griefer but also being a manipulative, downright nasty leader of a group of griefers who organised raids on popular locations in SL.
He kept asking me and pleading with me, acting like a completely innocent guy. He was quite convincing... or would have been, had I not seen a bunch of logs...

I've had people pretend they have reformed their griefing habits to me in one window, whilst at the same time evading bans on my land using alts. I've watched them do it!

I've seen them lying to my face with my own eyes. Seeing that happen, time and time again, eventually leads to you refusing to listen to requests to be unbanned.

In short... yes, griefers can change. Unfortunately, some griefers are so persistent and manipulative, I and many other admins have decided upon a "no second chances" policy about bans. It doesn't matter if a griefer later reforms - we won't unban them. As far as we are concerned, they are banned for life. If they try to use alts to sneak back on our land, rest assured we have ways of finding out and dealing with it

This doesn't mean us land owners / sim admins are merciless. We do still sometimes give second chances. I'm just saying that second chances have become much rarer, due to the manipulative nature of some griefers we've had to deal with in the past.
It used to be the case that second chances were the norm and third chances were rare but possible. Now in many places second chances are very rare and third chances simply never happen.

Theres no doubts by now that some of the griefers have banned ME from THEIR land for baning them from my land. Doesn't bother me though cuz i never leave the fur valley continent. I have no reason to. I got all my friends and all i need here. People have raised some valid points in this topic. I've always been the kind who once is deceived will never trust again.

The only way i would ever unban a griefer is if like 6 months passed by since the got banned and their record has been clean. With all the ban list sharing and accounts used to track griefer groups, i will know if they are clean. Some major concerned Land Owners / Admins make alts to monitor griefing groups and see whats being plotted. SInce i have never griefed or wanted to, i have no idea what possess a person to do it, but i sure do know how to stop them.

If a griefer really wants to change, running to the forums and crying about being ostracized is not the way to do it. When one decides to start trouble, they have already made their bed. Make a bad first impression and it sticks to you.

Those who really want to change their ways will have to work at it. Just saying you have changed won't do. Good reputations don't just happen overnight. People will take you seriously when you treat them right.

I'm glad this is getting a positive response.

True, people do lie -- even decent folk. Here's a question for you both: how does a theoretical ex-griefer demonstratably atone for their past mistakes? It sounds like the only favored option I've heard is to create a new account, which isn't always an option due to permissions, land, objects, and even reptuation.

Never said it was; personal change is nearly always gradual unless it stems from some signficant (usually traumatic) event. I pose to you the same question.

An opinion from someone who just happened upon the thread who knows none of the involved parties and drama. The things I happen across while looking for interesting places to visit...

I agree this may not be the best place for such a request, but if not here, where? In game, they're banned and likely muted.


How would you tell if their record is clean? Like, if no one complains about them?

Couldnt say it better myself.

I have spys. Also yes. If i check poeples ban lists and i still see them i contact that land owner and see what happened. Also if i havent heard of anything they done recently, via notecards or security groups then i assume they matured. Also profiles play a big part. If their profile is empty it leaves you to believe they might not be taking SL seriusly. If they have a profile that shows they have been productive and mature then they pass.

I absolutely believe people can change and there are certain people I've given second chances to. A lot of the time it depends on what they had done, how serious it was.

Sometimes the word griefing is applied to things that are merely annoying, it is overused.

That said, I decide whether or not someone deserves a second chance based on how they conduct themselves after the fact. There are key words, actions and tones I will pick up on that will ensure a persone WON'T get that second chance.
* Speaking to me in an angry tone, or telling me I am over reacting.
* Trying to go around me by speaking to another group officer.
* Insisting I am being unfair in expecting them to wait and prove themselves.
* Trying to use my lifestyle choice against me by referring to me as "girl" (I HATE that) or telling my I'm not "behaving like a submissive". The response in those cases is a flat out "I am a submissive but I am not YOUR submissive, you are hereby muted, goodbye".
* Attempting to speak to my Master/Partner instead.... his response will be "If you don't have clawmarks, you're doing fine, go talk to her again."
* If the griefing incident was disruptive enough, clearly hostile, or did any sort of damage there is no second chance, period.

A griefer can change, but if one has truly changed then he/she should be able to understand why the rest of us are leary.

The good news is that SL has what you'd call a higher turnover rate than RL. By that I mean that land is constantly bought and sold, clubs and stores close in one place and reopen in another. That club you (meaning a collective "you" here) bombed last month and got banned from may very well rebuild and reopen on another sim soon and you might find yourself with the chance to drop in and spend a little time proving yourself again.

Allana, you raise some very good points, and must certainly have some funny stories. I find it very amusing that a griefer would trouble you further due to anything related to BDSM.

If a ban list gets even moderately large, manual comparisons and spying on individuals sounds like a huge undertaking that would likely result in either neglect or apathy.

You do raise a good point with profiles. Date of birth and CC info on file might also be applicable, and I can definitely forsee security scripts restricting on such parameters.

Griefers are not people. Decent people don't harrass other people in any way. Good people give help freely. Griefers annoy continuously for no other reason than satisfying their own pathetic ego.

Why is so hard to understand? Everyone here knows right from wrong. Griefers choose to do wrong, they should expect to be treated accordingly. It's their choice. You reap what you sow.

Personally I think once a griefer always a griefer doesn't mean the person will always "grief" but once the person HAS griefed they are thereafter always a "griefer" and viewed with the distrust/dislike that goes with being a member of that class.



Maybe they can't. *shrugs* It's like the amusing complaints about ban lists. Private land private choice. If a land owner never want to let a griefer on his land that's his perogative regardless if the griefer hit him personally regardless if the griefer ever does it again. It's not a public choice. It's a choice made by each land owner and if the griefer or onlookers don't like it those people simply... don't matter.

I need changing! Bring baby powder and a fresh diaper.

Oh, and a bio-hazard suit.

This is just an opinion, but I don't think that's a very healthy attitude. Everyone is a person, even those who irritate you. Again with my example: Lindens are not people.

I'd also like to add that some of the best scripting help I've had has been from

There are 2 primary reasons people grief and troll: spite and entertainment. Approaching the problem as such will help better solve it then retribution.

I'm not defending the practice, I'm just questioning how it's dealt with; the two are not synonymous.

It's true, people change.

Come back in six months and we'll sit down and talk about it.

In the mean time, the fact that actions have consquences *may* actually sink in to the griefer's head.

There are a couple of people in SL I consider griefers that have businesses. I have no intention of buying any of their products (I check ownership on a vendor before I purchase anything), nor do I voluntarily associate with them or any member of any group they happen to be officers of.

I don't own land, so I can't ban them, but I can make sure that they never make any money off of me or my friends.

I see no reason why it should fall upon me to make their experience in SL rewarding in any way, since they seem to feel I (and others) are here solely for their entertainment.

Having encountered griefing in many MMOs I am one of those that advocates the zeor tolerance line with griefers, and over the last week or 2 I have seen an apparent escalation in griefing incidents both first hand and from I have heard other people say. The allownace of unverified accounts into the grid does not help the issue at all, and while not all unverifieds are griefers, a lot of greifers are unverified. There is a very simple measure that the Lindens can use to stop the increase and that is simply to demand verfification from a credit card for all accounts, free and premuim. I am a free account user, but I did enter my credit card information - verification is possible from a number of sources as well as credit cards, though some less easy to obtain than others. Basically reinstate verification, DO NOT allow griefers a 2nd chance.

Anyone may change.

However, let me replace the word "griefer" with a term I find more fitting; "criminal". To some, this will be overreacting on my part and "harsh". I don't really care. To "grief" one must break rules and regulations, the ToS and CC, our laws here in Second Life. Violation of a law is a criminal act. Granted, "griefing" is a minor violation in most cases, but I have seen instances where significant money was lost by the victim.

Anyone who breaks rules and regulations, or laws, will face the punishment of society if caught. The legal aspect of this in SL is warnings/suspensions/permbanning. The other aspects are ostisizing from society. Landbanning. While some may feel this ostisizing may be too harsh, others believe it is part and parcel of being a "criminal".

To quote the old adage "If you are going to do the crime, be prepared to do the time." There is a price to pay for griefing within SL. If a person doesn't wish to face that price, then they shouldn't grief. That simple.

~Jessy

The problem is with Griefer reform is the lack of adiquite punishment. The Lindens have failed to provide that so the users are providing for themselves. Blacklists were inevidable once LL enstated open registration wich would pile on 100x the work load on the already understaffed Abuse Report Team (ART, that is if they even do anything anymore). If LL can get the proper amount of staff on the ART they should seriously look at harsher punishments like fines and the offending objects' removal from their inventory. You can't die and its currently cheap to grief in SL so there is really nothing to instill the fear of punishment into people's minds. Many griefers grief because they know they can get away scott free with the overworked ART unable to get to their AR. I've seen the logs of quite a few griefer groups (and even seen their websites & forums), they aren't afraid because they believe nothing can happen to them. Maybe fines and item loss will be more affective when griefing takes a 180 and goes from cheap/free to expensive.

As controversal as Blacklists are, they're working. Griefers are starting to slowly learn the consiquences of their actions as their favorite targets are banning together to defend themselves and even some of their favorite hangouts are now offlimits because of thier actions elsewhere. Everyone here has seen the outcome. Griefers are begging/demanding their removal from the blacklists and even have started making outragous threats if we don't comply. Why are they doing this? Its simple, we've done more then give them a gentle slap on the wrist. We've done more then LL has done to griefers because they're still allowed in world and they can't visit they're favorite places. Its like a 5 year old with a candy addiction not allowed into the candy store because he tried to steal a lollypop. They can sit at the door and look in, but they can't get in and those red ban lines have become a harsh reminder of how they got themselves into this.

You may want toconsider what games grievers have just come from. I understand 90% of online games involve conflict and the use of weapons. It is only natural that newbies who have been on these other violent games expect the same in sl.

Once they settle down and see the possibilities of sl, they may well turn into good citizens.

I guess that might happen at about the same time that they figure out how to make an alt and then they get a new chance to behave. Could be problem solved?

There's a difference between a noob with a gun and a griefers. 9 out of 10 noobs will put the gun away when asked to and are usually nice about it when you explain why. Griefers will usually shoot you for asking them to put it away and if you have taken the proper precausions (sitting on a prim or non-phys and restricting push on your land) they'll usually result is swearing, harassment, or the use of other weapons such as cagers. Quite often they'll try moving onto an easier target just a little bit aways from you without even responding. These observasions are based off my experiences as a co-owner in a sim and estate manager for a few other sims.

I love the noobs, seriously I do. They're so much easier to deal with and I do take into consideration what games they do come from because it makes it that much easier to deal with.

It's not a case of "Once a Griefer, Always a Griefer," or even that I believe that griefers can't change.

I have no time for griefers, former or current, they get *one* chance. Grief me, grief my neighbors, grief someone who I exchange ban lists with...that's it. No other chances, they stay on my ban list for every place I control until the end of time.

There are plenty of people who come into SL and don't grief *anybody*. People who understand basic social conventions, and who understand that other people have rights and feelings too, and that harassing other people for their own amusment is *bad*.

Given that there are plenty of people who never grief, why should I waste any time and effort on the ones who do? Why should I bother to take time to try to figure out if this person who blew me out of my sim when I said "Hello" the *first* time I encountered them is actually sincere *this* time?

This isn't RL, where their ability to make a living depends on people being willing to accept that they're reformed. Between me, my friends, my neighbors, etc. I have influence over maybe 3/4 of a sim woth of land, total, when it comes to banning.

It was these people's choice to grief in the first place. Actions have concequences. Anti-social actions *should* have concequences. "I'm really sorry that I shot you and your friends and bombed your land and harassed you," should *not* be a get out of jail free card. If the concequences are harsher than they thought they'd be, then that's their problem. Maybe world of what's happened to them will get around and help to discourage future griefers.

In my opinion, griefers should be tossed out of SL on their first offense and not let back in. Not being able to get onto the land of people who've decided that they're sick and tired of griefers is considerably less severe than that. If they didn't want negative concequences, they shouldn't have carried out negative acts.

Other people can do what they like, but it's my land and I don't want anyone who *ever* thought that griefing people was cool on my land.

Yea i can't forget that time just a few minutes before LL took the grid down to update us giving us push restrictions. That griefer came into our sim with a watermellon launcher. You asked him to put it away and he shot it at you. It barely did anything to you cuz your shields though hehe. I was like "Welcome to ban city! SLAP!".

As quoted in that other thread.. Here is the definition of Griefer in a out of SL sence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer Now in SL it's a little different since theirs no real killing. But the definition is still pretty much the same.