You Can Do Anything vs. It's Just Too Hard!

Oh, but you do have to.

Real life, virtual reality, whatever: the ways in which societies and individuals in those societies interact will always follow the same patterns, shifted only shallowly by the physical parameters of the time and environment. This is why the basic material of Shakespeare's work is immortal. This is why Frederick Pohl's "Day Million" is understandable.

SL seems, to me, to amplify some aspects of RL society and to suppress others. And that is likely due to its virtuality, yes --- much the way in which roadway behavior is colored by its participants being insulated by their automobiles. But we are all humans, on the road and online, and will engage in the behaviors that have always represented what that means.

* * *

"another paean to the content creators" Yeah? Hell, I'm not even going to backtrack and see who said that--- who said that as if it's a bad thing. (But I know it wasn't you, Ingrid. )

But, listen: What the living fuck is wrong with giving credit where credit is due? Except that perhaps someone is jealous (for whatever possibly unfathomable reason) that he or she isn't geting the kudos on a regular basis ...

And we're talking content creation specifically. We're talking about saying, "Gee, Avatar X, you are one hell of a terrific content creator!" Which says nothing about whether Avatar X is a bitch, a sweetheart, a boor, a life of the party or anything else other than a terrific content creator.

It's like you say, "Gee, Mr. Tree, you sure are a great tree!" and Mr. Rock gets upset because you didn't say he was a great tree. For chrissakes, Mr. Rock --- you're a fucking rock! Get over it!


And but you know what else? Because I'm on a roll here (a lovely little kaiser roll, in fact, still warm from the oven and soon to be filled with smoked turkey, slices of jarlsberg, a sprinkling of capers, and a thick shmear of Plochmann's stone-ground mustard) ... because, I say, I'm on a goddam roll here?

This is what else:

The content creators that I've met inworld? Well, sorry, all you whiners or I'm-speaking-in-a-calm-and-well-modulated-tone-so-you-don't-think-I'm-the-whiner-that-I-really-am types ... Sorry, because all the content creators I've ever dealt with? They've all been nice and helpful, at first, in a professional-service sort of way ... but the ones I've gotten to know further, that I've hung with briefly or chatted with at a dance or whatever? Well, damned if they haven't been friendly and clever and just a pleasure to interactwith.

Gosh, what a horrible thing, hey? Because we could sing a few more praises of those content creators, praises that wouldn't even have to do with the wonderful content they create! Oh, woe is you! Oh, the humanity!

And ~

Ah, never mind. Whatever. I gots a sammich needs eating.

Your analysis of how to profit from events based on rl analogies doesn't work.

Shorthand explanation: You can't charge for drinks in a virtual world.

coco

You're a mighty damn good writer, Memory.

coco

Nothing?

Except that wasn't what I was talking about at all. I think it's pompous of anyone, be they content creators or otherwise to tell people how to manage their second lives.

I dunno Coco. When I go out in RL - it's not for the drinks - it's for socialization and entertainment. The drinks are secondary, and should be, unless one is an alcoholic or a frat boy trying to impress or keep up with friends.

Many clubs in RL charge an entrance fee. We have in SL the ability to charge for access to our parcels. I think that was more so the analogy being drawn. But that's just me.

I've had this exact discussion with peeps inworld.

In RL, you're exactly right - revenue comes from drinks, period. Even a cover at the door is only there to keep out riffraff on a non-band night, or to give the band extra money according to their draw.

Can't do that. What else can you offer to people that is worth their money?

1. Giveaways (good ones, no shite)
   

1. Luxury/VIP status (its all about appearance, in RL and SL. Bar A and Bar B serve the exact same beverages, but Bar A has a DJ, lights, bouncers and a velvet rope - Bar B has puke in the bathroom and a junkie trying to get behind the bar.)
   

1. Exploration/Visuals (combined with hype, this would be enough to get people in the door at least the first time around)
   

In RL you go out for three reasons - socialize, get drunk, or enjoy music. You can socialize anywhere in SL. No alcohol, so there goes that.

Live music....hmm....Astrin Few comes to mind. Do people pay to go see him? If so, why not?

I know that its way to much to ask for to expect a thriving live music scene in SL. The point is, you have to combine something people will want with an unique and quality presentation, and then make the whole package look like something only the really cool people go to - then you can charge. The RL answers to those questions are going to be different than the SL ones, but its only a matter of time before someone hits on the right formula.

(It'll be tough to do, and it'll be a limited crowd of people that can pull it off right, as well. Pre-emptive whining from club owners not allowed.)

You know what they about what happens when you assume, Cocoanut. I never said that events need to be carbon copies of real-world mechanisms. What I said:



You assumed I meant that the way to do this was the replicate, exactly, the real-world equivalent of a live event. Which is part of our problem, here. Complete lack of imagination. If everyone is trying to make square pegs fit into round holes, no one is going to make any money.

The truth is, I'm not certain what the Killer App of live events is going to be. I know what it's not, though: You're never going to make any money by paying people to do you the favor of showing up.

This is a digital medium. Trying to shoehorn physical reality into pixel-space is about as useful as building a car out of aluminum based on wooden wagon plans.

Shorthand: Evolve or die.

-- > End dealing with that same old song.

Now, Alain,

The flip side of the coin is to shift the value proposition to someone else. I should have mentioned this earlier.

If you demonstrate an ability to attract eyeballs, you're going to make yourself valuable to someone besides your guests. If you have a few dozen people going to and from your event over the course of an evening, and those people are of the sort that I, as an advertiser, definitely want to target, you'd have a pretty easy time convincing me that some ad space in your venue is worth L$500 or L$1000. Cobble together a few advertisers and you're ready to rock. Finding a nice balance between ROI for the advertiser, solid funding for the host and finally usability for the venue is a little tricky, but I think it can be worked out.

This model follows the basic standard for WWW content. Give away your information/entertainment and charge for advertiser access to eyeballs.

Many thanks.

Hopefully, we can get more event planners together to change the current paradigm.

I agree that, "Hotest T&A" type events are not likely to go away anytime soon; they appeal to the LCD, and so have marketability of some sort. Sort of...

What we need, though, are events that appeal to people that are looking for more than T&A, Sex, or Free Money.

Some events could be crafted that appeal to people's higher interests, where a skilled event coordinator could make some money.
Such events could include, but are not limited to:

Events that highlight people's creativity
-Poetry sharing
-Art exhibits with opportunities for the artist to sell his/her work. (The event coordinator could charge a flat fee or be cut in for a percent, if the artist was not able to do his/her own promotions and space management.)
-Fashion Shows (same as with Art)


Events that serve a purpose of social recognition or prestige
-Awards Banquests - Once again, the event coordinator could charge for putting the event together better than the hosts would be able to do themselves.
-Benefit events - It has been shown that events where attendance bestows a certain level of prestige are often better attended and provide better benefit to the gifted agency.

Other events where a high level of quality is expected, but not able to be produced effectively or economically by the host agency or individual.
-Weddings
-Business promotional events
-Life Passages (changes in state of affairs.) I am not sure how this applies in the SL world at this time. RL events would include Graduations, Funerals, Promotions or new jobs, Christenings, Weddings (Which were noted above because those sprang immediately to mind and I am ading this as a catchall for stuff I cannot yet imagine... but will when I set my mind on the task.), Bar Mitzvahs, Confirmations, Sweet-Sixteen Parties, etc...

In cases such as these, the coordinator's skill would be the foundation for business worthiness, provided the coordinator could assemble a better event than the event holders could do for themselves. (There will always be some folks who will insist on doing it themselves, but we have that IRL as well... sometimes they ARE good... and often, they look...well... iffy)

In addition, such promoters and event coordinators should always push the standards of the market just a little bit higher, establishing the foundation for a competitive arena, encouraging competition and thereby further improving the market standard. Ideally (depending on the elasticity of funds in the SL marketplace), there will be consumers who want, for reasons of social standing or other nontangible competitive reasons, to have the best, brightest or most spectacular event. These people will comprise the target market.

Please don't misunderstand me: Nightclubs and Pool Parties are all well and good as they are, and I DO believe that the peopple who pull these content locations together should be compensated (My formula for such is to figure out what a similar night out would cost IRL, convert to Lindens at 250L$/US$ and divide by 10; thus, a night that would usually cost US$20 IRL would convert via this algorithm to L$500. A $10 night would convert to L$250. If this is too steep then divide by 12 or 15. The important thing to remember is that , as with Waitstaff and Bartenders, so with event hosts: the more generous you are, the more these people can afford to continue to do their thing and the better the events will become). What I am saying is that the locations could also be used for other types of events, and the owner should also consider event coordination as an alternate path of resource.

I keep telling her that. . .

Which brings me to a point that Enabran and I have discussed before in another thread (Memory like a steel trap, I have ). Why must all SL content, by definition, be a virtual 3-D object that has the potential to be sold? Are there not creators who create simply for the joy of having created? Further, are there not smaller creative communities in SL who do what they do with little or no recognition and absolutely no financial gain?

If you feel that these communities do not exist in SL, I would like to introduce you to Jeffrey Gomez (SL writing wiki, SLNoWriMo) and the various and sundry members of the Poetry Guild--these folks exist outside of the model you have proposed; however, their efforts, in part, make SL a vibrant and diverse place.

SHUT UP SOCIALIST

If you really believe this, you got a lot of larnin' to do.

Shakespeare's work is not "immortal". In fact, it fell out of favor for a couple of hundred years, and was resurrected again in the late 1700s - partly in reaction to the democratization of British politics and Shakespeare's interest in "common humanity". It fell out of the mainstream again in the 1920s and '30s as reactionary pre-modern literature, and was resurrected in the 1950s by movies and television - for commercial purposes. Currently it is under literary assault once again - and shakeyphiles like Harold Bloom are working hard to save it.

As for Pohl's Day Million, anything written in the SF venacular is guaranteed not to accurately describe the milieu of the future - only because the head of the person who invents the future is stuck in this time and environment, and literary translation issues dictate that the future be familiar to readers in the present - when likely the future won't be. Any decent SF author will tell you that.

In fact, chronological and environmental issues have shifted societies dramatically in nearly every meaningful, measurable characteristic - and never more so than in the last 200 years. We keep rediscovering Shakespeare because at different points we reinterpret him to mean what we need him to say. No doubt the same will happen to Fred Pohl, whom I admire a lot.



Which is a statement that contradicts itself.



I made that statement, and you've us an excellent demonstration of why it's not good to use a quote out of context, and then proclaim deliberate ignorance of its meaning. When something is said tongue-in-cheek, and someone takes it seriously - and what was said tongue-in-cheek actually agrees with what he or she is arguing - it's usually time for a collective "whoops".



What is wrong with giving credit, indeed. Assuming that credit is given for reasons of merit. But I've seen too much horseshit inworld and in these forums given credit for reasons relating to things other than usefulness or beauty, and too much that is practical and pleasing and utterly ignored because no one knew who the creator was. Jealousy? Bullshit. More an indication that standards are complex and merit is simply one measurement.

So what do I take from that? This: I expect nothing, and I do not fail to compliment what I like, and I do not fail to disagree (diplomatically) when I see something given credit where credit is not (IMO) deserved.

And what the living fuck is wrong with that?

Ingrid, I tried to indicate (poorly, I suppose) that, at that point in my meager rhetoric, I was no longer responding to you in particular ...



Word.

kk?

yup.

Awesome idea!

Now I just need to become a better marketeer, so I can GET those eyeballs.
I had a similar idea inclined to promoting my mall tenants, and providing spillover traffic. This is just a further extension of that concept, but I would not have thought of taking it that far for fear of offending my patrons. (I know >I< hate out of context advertising when I am going out for an evening of relaxation. note: I use "out of context" in the sense that it does not advertise events hosted by the bar or club, nor items or events related to the bar or club held or sold in another venue, but items or events from a context alien to that venue.)

I will be honest; marketing is not my strong suit, and E-marketing fllows the same vein.

Chicken and egg stuff, man. It's very difficult to get the flywheel spinning on something like this.

Take, for example, Penny Arcade. Web comic started by two buddies who liked gaming and technology. Boring jobs, an apartment infested with rats... basically, the average dull life.

But that damn webcomic. One of them knew how to write, the other knew how to draw. Between them was created an internet phenomenon that captured the holiest of holy grails: Males 18 to 25. Who spent money buying expensive games.

As the comic improved, so did their popularity. Their first online tip jar provided them with an overwhelming amount of money, much more than they expected. But it wasn't enough.

Today they command an incredible presence online. They're widely respected by both the press and the gaming industry. Their advertising revenues are solid. They've closed the circle.

Difficult? Immensely so. But there it is. Just a couple of guys who now command the gaming masses like puppets on string. An amazing story of internet success.

Create something unique and people will come!

Hey, everybody, Ingrid told me to 'shut up'! My day is complete!

Really? Commercial purposes, you say? And why would something sell? Why would something be able to make money? Hmmm? Perhaps because it's still relevant to the audience of that time?

Could that be why, Seth?

And could it be that the material will still be relevant --- my answer is a resounding "Yes!" --- dozens and hundreds of years from now? I'm disastrously unconcerned whether something has fallen in or out of favor among the moribund denizens of academia; I'm talking about the common people here, Spock! (Uh, "Seth." I meant "Seth."




So, yes? And this means what? That, unlike in Biblical times, or Chaucerian Times, or Shakespearean times, or My Great Aunt Gertrude's times, people no longer fall in love, fight over property or intangibles, draw battle lines that divide families, conspire against others for political gain, celebrate life with song and dance, exhibit greed and joy and lust and jealousy, etc, etc, etc.? With the Flying Spaghetti Monster as my witness, Seth, all this shit has been going on since Olduvai Gorge! It went on among the early hominids, it's going on in the forums right now. Go ahead --- let your sister have kids: you'll be a monkey's uncle!




Not a single thing is wrong with that. You just seemed to be getting your jockeys in a bunch over people being too appreciative of things that you, personally, were not so appreciative of. Which is wack. But if that's not the case, Seth, then I misspoke in my response to you.

I dare add, though, that the "I meant it tongue-in-cheek" gambit does not always succeed, even when it's sincere. Didn't Enebran coach you on that already?

Say, have I said "living fuck" in this post yet? Oh --- *giggle* --- I just did!

Yep, subjectivity and selectivity are not hallmarks of "larnedness", to be sure.

Oh well.

The correct thread should be: "You Can Do Anything vs. It's Just Too Hard vs. Its too easy it gets boring"

Wow, a lesson in generalizations and assumptions and irrational hyperbole, as well as misreading and selective reading. Thank you professor.

I have never said that the content creators don't work hard. What I said is that number of people who will come to play SL casually, as I do, who don't want to make it their job to sit for hours and make content will utlimately far outstrip the numbers of people who make things. To compare-look at the number of people who use the internet vs the number of people who can turn out high quality professional flash media sites.

On some level you don't want a million people out there on the web, going to a few sites and downloading skins and repackaging them-it oversaturates the market. Where would we be if everyone just followed my route and made thier own clothes? Well the market would be dead.

So we come the my statement about the growth dynamic in SL. After a fashion, we need to to keep mnew players in SL. the reality is the new players cannot, or will not compete in the ability to create merchandise. Not all new players enjoy the benefits of a lucrative RL career that allows them money to do pretty much whatever they want in SL.

These people go to clubs, and play tringo largely because these sorts of events are free, and money is handed out at them. (Hell I made 10k at a raffle in a club once. That is huge to me, and bump on the but of the successful content creators, who make that on a day.) These are people who ask the question "so what do you do in SL? Do you know how unexiting it sounds to tell them: "oh, you get a job hosting, or learn to work a couple of fabulously complex programs on top of the already fabulously complex SL interface so you can make clothes, and maybe if you are lucky you'll make money. And you do this in your liesure time, or quite your RL job."

For some people, this is a hugely exciting prospect, they dive into it, and are talented enough to turn hard work into success. That might not be everyone's cup of tea. So then we are left with what does it take to keep the people who don't want to make stuff in sl, so they SL can exapnd and grow and come into its own as somethign other than a business simulator.

I can cyber myself

But you can charge cover for a hot band; you can charge admission to the amusement park, and a contest can have an entry fee to cover prizes.

Then I get to my secondary argument.

People tend not to pay more to be entertained in place where they paid to get into in the first place - hence the popularity of places like Six Flags over pay-for-each-ride places.

However, that could change, since now we have people who are here for total free!

coco

Nonsense.

I pay $44 for a 6mbit cable modem connection each month. Once connected, I pay for Second Life, .Mac, Coast to Coast AM Streamlink, Rush 24/7, GigaNews, iTunes songs, Steam game downloads, and a few other products. Other examples abound, including Pay-Per-View, which sees pretty solid numbers despite people having to pay to "get in" to cable.

The argument that I should expect to get every single service offered on the internet for only $44 falls flat on its face because it just doesn't make any sense. You pay for access and then you pay further for content and entertainment as needed.

That doesn't work?

Tell that to the thousands of thriving internet content and service providers.

Expectations need to be changed. The market will see to that eventually. I envy the few savvy folks who are going to ride the live event gravy train in SL when it finally arrives.

These are my goals.

1) Change expectations ( believe I had a long diatribe about this earlier in this thread.)

2) Ride the gravy train.
2.a)Better yet: Drive the gravy train, that way it goes where I want.