Do we need SL lawyers?

I believe it was William shakespeare who said the First step to Paradise was to Hang all the Lawyers.
It's Bad enough to have them in RL, lets leave them Out of this world of Fantasy.
Most of the so called problems Players have with the Lindens seem to come from the Players attempting to Play Both ends against the Middle, and Not liking it Much when they get Caught out.
I've been in Game almost two years and have had No negative interplay with the lindens or objections over their Handling of any issues that i have requested their aid on.

No, No SL Lawyers, How about simply so Good Honest Players instead?

Angel.

The Only time I can think of using an arbitrator or a lawyer in SL is if one were to have a vicarious or false abuse report lodged. I’ve heard of individuals in business competition with others, having abuse reports lodge to stifle there business operations for a time. Whether this is factual or not I do not know but it did get me wondering if there was an appeals process in place with LL if an AR was lodged. Id want Martin Bartin and Far.....go!! to represent me!!

Well lets say you make a skin. Lets say I copy the skin you made and sell it. How do you keep me from profiting? DCMA takedown, enforced by the lindens? I file a counter notice and say I created the skin-how to resolve?

Or lets say I agree to script your latest gun desing. Lets say I take half in advance, and not being able to script, I never deliver. You have given me free linden, unless there is a way to get it back.

Now what about log term projects? You want to hire me to build a house..I start but never finish, and your lot sits empty for months..how do you make me complete the job?

Business, real business, is about the ability to contract, and by definition a contract is a legally binding promise. To have a contract you must have a means of enforcing the contract. With no contracts SL will remain a happy little game, but not a true platform for the virtual economy.

And the Justice League, too.

Might work in Canada but in America you would probally end up dead. Carry my Glock 40 wherever I travel. I have an conceiled weapons permit and not afraid to use it!
Baseball bat armed thugs end up past tense and not a burden on the taxpayers in my state!

To me it seems clear that any RL arrangement or losses would involve RL legal actions, and any SL arrangements would be treated just as Linden Lab treats it... like a game. This is fine by me but it gets confusing when the RL/SL line gets blurred. Here is an example:

Say you are a RL company working in Second Life, but to save money you comission an SL player to perform an SL task for you in exchange for Linden pay scale (Linden dollars worh about $4.21 USD). To the SL player, it's all fun and games. If they get bored they could simply walk away and forget about it. But what if that player's negligence causes the RL company large financial losses on the order of thousands of dollars? Their initial reaction would be to take the SL player to court!

Now, without a contract, I don't think the RL company has a leg to stand on. However I have heard that this exact scenario has already happened and the RL company threatened lawsuits against the player!

I think you will see this stuff happen more and more in the future.

good point.

Why would a company with thousands of dollars put all that on the line just for some nit-wit they dont even know for $4.21?

Also, the company is only losing $4.21, why not then just go and hire someone who WILL finish the job before it's to late, after all they are only losing.....$4.21?

hehe some of the amounts were changed to protect the innocent by the way. And services associated with events cannot really be finished up after the event is over, it's a one time deal. As to why a company would do this? Well I'm sure the low costs are very tempting. I agree it's unwise but tempting nonetheless.

The question is, if you are playing Second Life for fun and somebody offers you Lindens to do something that looks like a "fun little project", are you opening yourself up to liability?

No.

My hourly rate is more than that, and for court appearances, it is a lot higher. Don't forget to add on costs. filing fees. fees for paralegal support and other staff related and administrative costs. I charge per copy as well, and yes, we count them. I charge for telephone call time in 6 minute increments, and yes we keep track.

The term of art we learn when hired for our first summer job is "BILLABLE HOURS." My time as an attorney is worth money, let's face it, why else would I do it.

I pretty much think you're right on this one. I would love to hear Jake's opinion too.

Well let's think about it this way. If you accept an offer to do something for another for some consideration, then a contract is formed.

Under the law a contract is a promise that the law will enforce. Offer, acceptance and consideration = contract. Unless the transaction falls within the statute of frauds then it does not have to be a written agreement, oral agreements will be enforced.

Consideration does not have to be money. It is anything of value to the parties which could even be an agreement to stop smoking in return for a favor. Consideration could be for lindens.

Liability? Well once you accept the offer and the other performs then yes, there is liability to perform your end of the agreement. Will the court force you to actually do the work by applying theories of equitable enforcement? In the arena of work probably not since there are constitutional issues related to forcing another to perform work. Under those circumstances you would be exposed to money damages instead.

The crucial issue for so many of the legal quesions raised in SL is not whether there is a legal remedy for the problems that arise but whether it's worth pursuing the matter legally.

Yes, we need lawyers in SL.

I'm getting bored and I need someone to hang.

Probably because they know the platform. If I were to hire someone who knew, say, how to build in SL for a big serious business project, why wouldn't I just make them sign a real world work contract? Work is work, doesn't matter where it is done. Contracts are signed to do work that is purely "online" or internet related all the time.

Now, if the company was just being cheap and wanted to pay someone a few play dollars to do some big job, they get what they deserve if that person doesn't take it seriously, and have no right to complain, and I don't think it would stand up in court. And they are lucky if the person has a personal work ethic and sense of responsibility that will produce good quality work, regardless.

For the most part, it is probably a mixture of both, in SL. I'm sure someone like Aimee has contracts that are drawn up outside of SL, even though the finished product will end up there. Others will work for lindens, but it had better be a lot of $Lindens if it is going to take a lot of time and work.

Without a contract how can one prove they actually agreed though?

I think the OP was asking more about an in game means of resolving disputes.

As it stands now, there is no mechanism in place to enforce agreements or to enforce any decisions made other than by direct Linden involvement.

The way i see it, there are two options.

1) Keep the current system as is. The downside is LL does not have nearly enough resources to involve themselves in every dispute that pops up. That might be a good thing though, depending on how you look at it.

2) Have an in game means of deciding disputes between SL residents. The question is who gets to decide who is right and who is wrong. And without the Lindens acting as judges, that leaves normal residents to fill that role, which means the question becomes is it better to have no mechanism or one that uses residents.

Finally, there has to be a way to actually enforce any decisions made.

Many may remember my own issues with a certain company that failed to deliver services they promised. From my own perspective, having some sort of way to get back the money spent is better than none. But from a content provider's point of view, I'm sure they don't want to spend their time dealing with made up claims either.

I really don't know where I stand on this issue.

It seems to me that given Linden Labs desire to build a viable economy there must be some sort of mechanism to allow for and enforce contracts. We actually have one now, the sales transaction. But that is one of the most basic possible transactions and it's incapable of enforcing anything more than an exchange of goods for money.

This implies a justice system. Many great minds have worked on how a justice system should work from Socrates to Voltaire to Jefferson to Marx. What's fascinating is that we could experiment with whole new mechanisms of justice that have never been tried before. Or we could copy a system like the United States or Britain (anyone for an Islamic justice system?). However, for it to happen, for whatever form it needs to take, I think LL is going to have to take an active role.

And then there is the question, what happens if SL's justice system comes in conflict with a RL justice system?

RL > SL

Let me second what katy said, she said it much better than I would have.

In addressing your point Beau, you throw the ole he said/she said to a jury and they decide who they like more. The Litigation process will produce a winner and a loser..even when, as you point out, there is no proof. A jury evaluates testimony too.

You never know exactly what you will get with a jury, and that is why most cases settle. But if you play the game and put your cards down in front of the jury box, they will tell you if you win or lose-no matter what actually happened.

Testimony is evidence.

Lawyers in SL. How delightful. Awwww!

Let's have some, and let's give them to those cute little "SL government" people to play with.

Circumstantial evidence is the method of proof, and the standard used for determination is the lesser preponderance of the evidence standard.

This means that evidence of an oral agreement, an oral contract, would be facts showing one party began to perform his end of the agreement, or that he took other action to his detriment that he would not otherwise do absent an agreement.

Circumstantial evidence could also include testimony about credibility of the witnesses, truthfulness, factors that might otherwise be considered hearsay could be introduced for consideration of credibility.

The testimony of any witnesses to the agreement would be permitted as a hearsay exception for the limited purpose to prove the existence of an agreement but not for the content or truth of the testimony of the witness.

In a civil case the standard of proof is by a preponderance of the evidence. This standard is less than the higher standard used in a criminal prosecution which is beyond a reasonable doubt. This means that in a civil contract case the fact finder, whether it is a judge or jury, need only determine by looking at the circumstantial evidence that it is "more likely than not" that an oral contract did exist.

Circumstantial evidence is as valid as direct evidence, the only difference is the method of proof. As a matter of fact, most criminal convictions are obtained using circumstantial evidence although the standard of proof would be guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal case.

As someone that has been sued in RL in federal court, I can say that no one wins.

The case against me and the company was thrown out, but it still cost us $12,000us

Lawyers in SL are best used to help define contracts and help clarify legal matters.
A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Contracts do two things. They clarify what is agreed on, and in RL they allow either side to enforce the agreement. Currently in SL, we have the ability to do the former but not the latter.

For example, if two people agree to some vague terms, i.e. "I agree to do something for you for money" its pretty obvious that neither side knows what the heck they are supposed to do or pay. Specifying the terms is always a good thing. . But sometimes people miss a term, or a condition. (i.e. "I agree to do "X" by September 1, 2006). The agreement should specify what happens is that date is not met.

If both people are honorable and there is no legitimate confusion of what is expected of either side, the need for contracts ends there.

But sometimes there is a true misunderstanding of the terms, as well as an outright breach of the agreement. A SL in game judicial system would allow some means of resolving those misunderstandings or enforcing the contract. (i.e. I pay someone say, $9,000 lindens to have them provide a service and they don't.). If SL were to add a judicial system, for it to work I would have to have the ability to get my money back if I won, even if the other side disagreed.

This is something LL will have to consider if they continue to present SL as a business platform. There will be honest mistakes and there will be scammers, and eventually there will be a need to resolve disputes.

Too bad there will be no more discussion between SL residents here after a few more weeks. I find it very helpful to read other players experiences, good and bad, and I like trying to come up with ways to prevent the negative ones from reoccuring, and I've seen others do the same. SL members actually play SL and have a unique perspective which is just as critical as the global perspective management has. But I'm sure we'll read all about management's side in the blog.

There is an easy way round all of this.

Treat Second Life as fun. Just like gambling, don't invest more time, money or effort than you can afford to lose. If you come away with nothing, you enjoyed yourself. If you came away with a profit, it's a bonus.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if some people didn't take the game so seriously in the first place.

Lewis