What is a Public Figure?
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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12-05-2005 13:02
From: Cocoanut Koala No, no, let's not NAME NAMES.
Let's go ahead and have this whole stupid thread, but let's not say out loud who it is we are AFTER. Agreed! Nobody should be "after" anybody here. This is a general subject that will have a huge impact on SLers for years to come. I think it's a great discussion to have. It's interesting that the company NAME may have an impact on the "public figure" status of the owner. Has there been any cases where this makes a difference? I was also wondering if company income makes any difference? Bill Gates seems to be a fine example of a public figure since Microsoft owns several continents and a few galileian moons. But what about the 100 dollar-a-month lemonade stands we see in Second Life? |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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12-05-2005 13:04
I consider it a flat-out libelous false statement to say that I am someone else entirely, and I considered it to be that way during the couple-three months I had to listen to it and put up with it on these forums. If that isn't a false statement, I don't know if there is one.
Yes, it's a very difficult legal standard to prove, particularly when you are talking about a game and game issues. It's also most definitely not worth worrying about, much less trying to figure out a legal crusade against.
coco
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Cubey Terra
Aircraft Builder
Join date: 6 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,725
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12-05-2005 13:04
From: Lora Morgan Cubey, there might be an argument that you are a public figure, based on the fact that your business is your name (cubeyterra.com, etc.). I know you sell aircraft and related gadgetry, but are you not also selling your name as your brand? If I bought out your business do I get your name? If so, does it have any value without your talent? If not, does that mean promotion of your business is promotion of yourself? By your definition above, doesn't that make you a public figure?
Same applies to anshechung.com/Ansheland.
I'm sure anyone with logic skills could pick that apart, but just some things to think about. The business is named for my account (note also that my name isn't actually "Cubey Terra"  , but I don't market myself. I market my product. I don't seek the spotlight for myself. Naming a shop after myself doesn't mean I'm personally seeking public attention any more than "John Deere" is. It means that I'm vain, maybe.  Also, I think Nolan is dead-on when he says: From: someone Do my RL neighbors have ANY idea who SL "celebs" are? No, and I would say that goes for 99% of the rest of the real world population.
...
I would also point out that public figure status in the real world is not a free pass for the media to say what ever the hell they want about someone. Several celebs have successfully sued tabloids, as one example.
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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12-05-2005 13:09
From: Jake Reitveld Well keep in mind folks that you can be a public figure for purposes of the first amendment, by being famous in a town of 1200 people. There are nominally 80,000 resident in SL, so trust me, one can be a public figure here.
Its a bizzare circumstance, you cannot be a public figure merely by being famous. There is an unknown threshhold at which you are famous enough to be a passive public figure. Running a successful business does not make you a public figure either, even though many people may know your business and buy your product. Aimee is not a public figure because everyone knows her clothing, she is apssive public figure because LL put on the website 5 times, and her likenss is associated with SL. In addition Aimees has been interviewed in a variety of of publications about SL, and has thus, to my mind attaned the sort of SL notoriety that a public figure would have.
Cubey Terra on the other hand is a very successful business person who many have heard of, but he is not likely a public figure.
Part of the difficulty in SL is that anyone can be relatively famous just by posting on the forums. By posting here you add your input inot the issues of public concern, and thus avail yourself of the public eye. A big part of it is the expecations of the individual too.
An actor has no expectation of privacy when he makes wsa movie. This the normal rule that slandering someone about their ability to perform thier job being slander per se does not apply. I can write "Tom Cruise stinks as an actor" and I am not defaming him. Yet if I take out an ad in a and say "DR. Bob is a quack and a schiester" then I am defaming Dr. Bob. (of course in defamation, truth is always a defense. If Dr. bob is a scheister,then ther is no defamation).
So whan I post in Ask Jake anything, I certainly am a public figure, open for critique and criticism in realtion to ask jake anything. But that does not make me a public figure for something I do in world. However if I use my notoriety from ask jake anything to say, give weight to my opinion on telehubs, thenI am thrusting myself inot the maelstorm of public opinion regarding telehubs for purposes of the telhub issue, at least, then I would be a public figure. Thanks again Jake! Has there been any case law that where "Public Figure" status has been attributed to people for posting on the internet. I am having a great deal of trouble getting over the contrast... Television News Reporter: NOT a public figure. Somebody posting on the internet: IS a public figure. |
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Cubey Terra
Aircraft Builder
Join date: 6 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,725
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12-05-2005 13:10
From: Aimee Weber I was also wondering if company income makes any difference? Bill Gates seems to be a fine example of a public figure ... I agree that Bill Gates could be considered a public figure, but only because he places himself in the spotlight very deliberately. He's the figurehead of a large corporation, and leverages that position to promote Microsoft. That he's fabulously rich doesn't seem to qualify his position at all. There are rich and reclusive billionaires who aren't public figures.
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C U B E Y · T E R R A planes · helicopters · blimps · balloons · skydiving · submarines Available at Abbotts Aerodrome and XstreetSL.com
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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12-05-2005 13:11
From: Jake Reitveld Well keep in mind folks that you can be a public figure for purposes of the first amendment, by being famous in a town of 1200 people. There are nominally 80,000 resident in SL, so trust me, one can be a public figure here. SL is not a real world town. Didn't you yourself say, just the other day, that we are all playing with dolls here? If you believe that, then I find your above statement to be dichotomous. The number, 90,000, is the population of a private game, not a real world town. I would like to see precedents (online environment litigation, and the outcome) cited to give weight the opinion you are positing here. Bottom line - we play in a privately held virtual space, not on TV and movie screens across the real world, or even a local newspaper in a town of 2000 people.
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
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12-05-2005 13:12
From: Cocoanut Koala Then I guess I should go sue a bunch of people on these forums. Certainly I was tempted (and said so) during my first months here when I wasn't even considered an individual, or a paying, playing resident in my own right.
Then I could sue over all the other slanderous (libelous?) things that have been said to me.
Right?
coco Well fisrt of all I donlt think this thread targets anyone. Second of all Coco, bu positng on the forums you may well have exposed yourself to the critiques and commentary directed at you, though arguably much of it my go beyond what your reasonable expectation was. Unfortunately participation in the public discourse opens the door for retort. Finally even if you have been libeled, you have been libeled (technicall slander is oral and libel is written. so noone is really slandered on the forums, they are libeled) under an assumed name that has no legal status, you cannot libel someone who does not leaglly exist. If someone had uses a real name you might have a whole different situation. This all, of course ingnores the possibilty of violations of the TOS not necessarily rising to the level of defamation.
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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12-05-2005 13:17
From: Jake Reitveld Finally even if you have been libeled, you have been libeled (technicall slander is oral and libel is written. so noone is really slandered on the forums, they are libeled) under an assumed name that has no legal status, you cannot libel someone who does not leaglly exist. If someone had uses a real name you might have a whole different situation.
Is this true? For example, is it impossible to libel an actor that goes under a stage name? Woody Allen, for example is really Allen Stewart Konigsberg and to the best of my knowlege he never changed his name legally to his stage name. Is it therefore impossible to libel Woody Allen? |
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
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12-05-2005 13:18
From: Aimee Weber Thanks again Jake! Has there been any case law that where "Public Figure" status has been attributed to people for posting on the internet. I am having a great deal of trouble getting over the contrast...
Television News Reporter: NOT a public figure.
Somebody posting on the internet: IS a public figure. Well the answer is it depedsn on the circustances. A tv news reporter has a job. Part of that job relates to reporting news and being seen on TV. This alone does not make the news reporter a public figure. Ulenss the reporter uses her notoriety to bolsert her platform on a public controversy, then the courts have said no, you are just doing your job in reporting news. (the Utah decision gives an exaple of circumstaces where a reporter was found to be a public figure, and distinguishes the case. Yes posting on the internet and putting yourself at the center of public controverys can make you a public figure-Matt Drudge, who does the drugde report, would be a public figure based on his positing on the internet (at least so far as it pertains to his posting on the net). Remeber too though, you can be a limited public figure as well. Most actors fall under this category.
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Lebeda 208,209
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MJ Hathor
Purple Butterfly
Join date: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 901
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12-05-2005 13:19
From: Annah Zamboni Aimee is an action figure. I thought she was a teddy bear?  In response to the actual subject, what I've always wondered if public figures irl are in sl and don't draw attention to themselves. They use this as a platform to be "normal". I think I would have mild heart failure if I realized my bestest friend in SL was Madonna or something along that line lol. MJ |
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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12-05-2005 13:20
I find it curious the Wikipedia doesn't have an entry for "public figure". Furthermore, consider the irony when a "reclusive billionaire" ends up getting more attention while trying not to.
Is it safe to say that generally, when someone declares themselves to be open to being a public figure, that they are? Self-proclamation can be a very useful thing for communications intent.
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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12-05-2005 13:22
From: MJ Hathor I thought she was a teddy bear? In response to the actual subject, what I've always wondered if public figures irl are in sl and don't draw attention to themselves. They use this as a platform to be "normal". I think I would have mild heart failure if I realized my bestest friend in SL was Madonna or something along that line lol. MJ This is NOT so crazy! I know Opie and Anthony love online multiplayer games like Everquest. And Howard Stern apparently spent some time in chat rooms. I wouldn't be shocked at all to discover a REAL celebrity walks among us in SL. |
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Taco Rubio
also quite creepy
Join date: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 3,349
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12-05-2005 13:25
From: Aimee Weber This is NOT so crazy! I know Opie and Anthony love online multiplayer games like Everquest. And Howard Stern apparently spent some time in chat rooms. I wouldn't be shocked at all to discover a REAL celebrity walks among us in SL. I honestly know of 2
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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12-05-2005 13:25
From: Aimee Weber This is NOT so crazy! I know Opie and Anthony love online multiplayer games like Everquest. And Howard Stern apparently spent some time in chat rooms. I wouldn't be shocked at all to discover a REAL celebrity walks among us in SL. There are some non-North American ones. |
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Starax Statosky
Unregistered User
Join date: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,099
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12-05-2005 13:26
Stand back everybody! I have the answer to this question!!! A public figure is a figure that is known by the public.  Yes, the answer was encrypted in the question but I finally cracked it! Damn Aimee and her puzzles. But seriously: Aimee was a public avatar in a small virtual world. But when she put her 1st life pic in her profile she became a public figure in a small virtual world. I'm sensing she and her avatar have become one. * strokes Aimee's avatar * |
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
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12-05-2005 13:26
From: Aimee Weber Is this true? For example, is it impossible to libel an actor that goes under a stage name?
Woody Allen, for example is really Allen Stewart Konigsberg and to the best of my knowlege he never changed his name legally to his stage name. Is it therefore impossible to libel Woody Allen? An intersting question, but yes you can lible woody allen as woody allen. The difference is that there is no annoymity in a stage name. Woody Allen's public persona, is Woody Allen. the court would look in that case to the expectation of MR. Allen in his name. If Allen konigsberg is known to the world as Woody Allen, and the name is associated with the individual, then he can be libeled. However you could not Libel tom Cruise by calling him Jerry McGuire. I think that being able to hide behind a name like Taco Serious provies a layer of insualtion to the individual. However in SL we have very realy interests in our screen names. But I am not sure the court has ever addressed anything like that issue. I think for purposes of SL, our anmes are our names, and all the rights we have as people would vest in our avatar, but I am not sure how a court might look at it if I sued Coco for defaming JAke in a california Court.
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Lebeda 208,209
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Lecktor Hannibal
YOUR MOM
Join date: 1 Jul 2004
Posts: 6,734
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12-05-2005 13:27
From: Taco Rubio I honestly know of 2 muahahaha
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YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net ' From: Khamon Fate Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible. Bikers have more fun than people !
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
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12-05-2005 13:30
From: Starax Statosky Stand back everybody! I have the answer to this question!!! A public figure is a figure that is known by the public. Yes, the answer was encrypted in the question but I finally cracked it! Damn Aimee and her puzzles. But seriously: Aimee was a public avatar in a small virtual world. But when she put her 1st life pic in her profile she became a public figure in a small virtual world. I'm sensing she and her avatar have become one. * strokes Aimee's avatar * Actually in the bizzare world of legal truths, thats not strictly true.
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ALCHEMY -clothes for men.
Lebeda 208,209
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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12-05-2005 13:30
From: Starax Statosky I'm sensing she and her avatar have become one.
* strokes Aimee's avatar * BAD TOUCH!  |
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Doc Nielsen
Fallen...
Join date: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,059
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12-05-2005 13:30
Public figure?
All said and done, SL is a VERY small pond...
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All very well for people to have a sig that exhorts you to 'be the change' - I wonder if it's ever occurred to them that they might be something that needs changing...?
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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12-05-2005 13:32
From: Jake Reitveld Well fisrt of all I donlt think this thread targets anyone.
Second of all Coco, bu positng on the forums you may well have exposed yourself to the critiques and commentary directed at you, though arguably much of it my go beyond what your reasonable expectation was. Unfortunately participation in the public discourse opens the door for retort.
Finally even if you have been libeled, you have been libeled (technicall slander is oral and libel is written. so noone is really slandered on the forums, they are libeled) under an assumed name that has no legal status, you cannot libel someone who does not leaglly exist. If someone had uses a real name you might have a whole different situation.
This all, of course ingnores the possibilty of violations of the TOS not necessarily rising to the level of defamation. 1. Jake, I will NEVER remember or keep straight the difference between slander and libel. I will try. 2. However, the burden of being expected to prove that you are a separate individual is totally unreasonable both in SL (where you can't prove you are real)and irl (where it is easily proven). That shouldn't have happened, and that's what had me on the verge of suing. Being told over and over, and having OTHERS, the other readers of the forum, being told over and over - by a few, influential people - that you are not a person has got to be the worst sort of slander/libel/whatever. 3. Yes, I am a public figure and I know it, in terms of SL. And if I am, definitely Aimee is. And in both our cases, we don't actually exist, so this is a non-issue which I thought would be put to bed after Jake's first post. coco |
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Starax Statosky
Unregistered User
Join date: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,099
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12-05-2005 13:34
From: Jake Reitveld Actually in the bizzare world of legal truths, thats not strictly true. Well this is our world. So lets add it to the Feature Suggestion page and try to make it true. |
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Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
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12-05-2005 13:35
From: Aimee Weber I was wondering if anybody had any thoughts about what criteria makes a person a “ public figure.” Now, I’m quite aware that *I*… Aimee Weber … enjoy a level of fame and notoriety on par with your local TGIF’s “Employee of the Month.” I try not to let it go to my head. *polishes the 37 pieces of flair on her vest* *cue cheesy beer commercial music* "Bud Light's Real Women of Genius... today, we'd like to salute you, Ms. Butterfly-wing-wearer! ( Ms. Butterfly-wing-weeeearer!)"
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Gabe Lippmann
"Phone's ringing, Dude."
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 4,219
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12-05-2005 13:37
From: Aimee Weber Thanks again Jake! Has there been any case law that where "Public Figure" status has been attributed to people for posting on the internet. I am having a great deal of trouble getting over the contrast...
Television News Reporter: NOT a public figure.
Somebody posting on the internet: IS a public figure. Is the type of forum important? Is someone that posts on the Dell.com technical support forum a public figure in relation to users of the Dell.com website? Does it matter what the content of the post is? Contrast calling in to a radio talk show verus calling in repeatedly to a radio talk show with the clear intent of thrusting yourself into the public eye? Many people's intent is not to thrust myself into the SL public eye trough posting, it was a medium of interaction provided by SL, which we have availed ourselves of. Nothing more. Can you really be a public figure in a town of 1200 if everyone knows everyone else anyway?
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Annah Zamboni
Banannah Annah
Join date: 2 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,022
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12-05-2005 13:37
From: Aliasi Stonebender *cue cheesy beer commercial music*
"Bud Light's Real Women of Genius... today, we'd like to salute you, Ms. Butterfly-wing-wearer! (Ms. Butterfly-wing-weeeearer!)" LOL! But dont forget the librarian style glasses! They rock! |