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LV426 Slocombe

Registered User

Join date: 9 Mar 2007

Posts: 23

03-11-2007 05:01

Hi all!

I have an interest in CGI and dabble/work with 3DS Max as my package of choice. I'm finding the SL building tools frustrating because they are far removed from the flexbilities and work flows that are available in the CGI authoring apps.

Are there any tools or techniques available to provide access to primitive sub-selections (vertex & edge editing would be sweet)? Or anything at all that can enhance the editing tools?

Jillian Callahan

Rotary-winged Neko Girl

Join date: 24 Jun 2004

Posts: 3,766

03-11-2007 05:13

/327/6e/170830/1.html

_____________________

Chosen Few

Alpha Channel Slave

Join date: 16 Jan 2004

Posts: 7,496

03-11-2007 09:38

As Jillian mentioned in your other thread, vertex editing is not within SL's repertoire. The type of 3D modeling you're used to from 3DS Max is called surface modeling. SL doesn't use surface modeling at all. Instead, it uses a system of parametric primitives, more akin to solids modeling than surface modeling.

This question comes up a lot, and I don't really feel like retyping all the reasons why the system is the way it is, so allow me to quote myself from a few days ago:

From: Chosen Few

The reason is because unlike any other 3D environment, SL is 100% user created, and 100% streamed. There is no permanent geometry whatsoever. The world changes literally every moment.

There are many problems that would need to be solved before arbitrary meshes could work in SL. The biggest is level of detail. Most amateurs are not going to have the time or the know-how to create meshes with pre-set variable LOD built in, so we'd need a way for the system to automate it. Unfortunately, there's really no good way at present for the system to intelligently judge polygon reduction over distance. It could be done strictly by math of course, but the results in many cases, if not most cases, would be less than pretty. For example, you could model the Statue of Liberty in exquisite detail, and from up close she could look great, but from any significant distance she'd probably look like nothing but a lumpy green blob as her polygons begin to reduce as the camera moves further away. That's a hard problem to solve.

The alternative would be not to use LOD, but if you think SL's laggy now, imagine what would happen if poly counts were never reduced by distance. There would be very few computers on Earth that would be able to handle SL in any semblance of real time if that were the case.

Another problem is bandwidth. If arbitrary meshes were to be used, the instructions for how to create every single polygon would have to be streamed to every single client for every single model. That would be an incredible amount of data.

By using a common set of parametric objects as building blocks for everything as SL does now, the process is streamlined. Since every client computer enters the world with foreknowledge of ow to make each type of primitive, the only data that needs to be streamed is where to put the prims, what size to make them, how to rotate them, etc. That's a relatively tiny amount of information.

Also, how to you calculate physics with an arbitrary mesh? There have been many suggestions on this, but none have been ideal.

LL has said many times that they do want eventually to allow mesh modeling in SL, and when that day comes, we'll all rejoice. However, these technical obstacles have to be overcome first, and none of them are easy.

One day, surface modeling will become a reality in SL, but that day is in the very distant future. In the here and now, what you need to do is learn how SL's present modeling system works, the same way you had to learn how Max worked back when you started with that.

As a professional 3D modeler myself, I can promise you that getting good at modeling in SL will make you better at modeling in Max. Because SL is so limited, it forces you to use a specific type of problem solving intelligence that more sophisticated modeling applications let you bypass. The result of exercising those problem solving skills is you become a much more efficient modeler, both inside SL and out.

Once I started getting good in SL, I found that my average poly counts per model in Maya were going way down while the visual quality was going way up (Maya uses surface modeling, by the way, just like Max). Also, my texturing skills increased at least a hundred fold.

Give it a little time, and I'm sure you'll say the same thing.

On a side note, nice name, LV426. "They mostly come at night... mostly."

_____________________

.

Land now available for rent in Indigo. Low rates. Quiet, low-lag mainland sim with good neighbors. IM me in-world if you're interested.

LV426 Slocombe

Registered User

Join date: 9 Mar 2007

Posts: 23

03-11-2007 16:53

Thanks for the detailed info Chosen, makes sense.

Yer, I got to just jump in there and learn the SL tools, just assesing my options and increasing my SL knowledge base. do you know if the Prim modelling plugin for Blender is any good? Might be a good excuse to getting around to learning Blender!

More advanced editing tools
LV426 Slocombe Registered User Join date: 9 Mar 2007 Posts: 23	03-11-2007 05:01 Hi all! I have an interest in CGI and dabble/work with 3DS Max as my package of choice. I'm finding the SL building tools frustrating because they are far removed from the flexbilities and work flows that are available in the CGI authoring apps. Are there any tools or techniques available to provide access to primitive sub-selections (vertex & edge editing would be sweet)? Or anything at all that can enhance the editing tools?
Jillian Callahan Rotary-winged Neko Girl Join date: 24 Jun 2004 Posts: 3,766	03-11-2007 05:13 /327/6e/170830/1.html _____________________
Chosen Few Alpha Channel Slave Join date: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 7,496	03-11-2007 09:38 As Jillian mentioned in your other thread, vertex editing is not within SL's repertoire. The type of 3D modeling you're used to from 3DS Max is called surface modeling. SL doesn't use surface modeling at all. Instead, it uses a system of parametric primitives, more akin to solids modeling than surface modeling. This question comes up a lot, and I don't really feel like retyping all the reasons why the system is the way it is, so allow me to quote myself from a few days ago: From: Chosen Few The reason is because unlike any other 3D environment, SL is 100% user created, and 100% streamed. There is no permanent geometry whatsoever. The world changes literally every moment. There are many problems that would need to be solved before arbitrary meshes could work in SL. The biggest is level of detail. Most amateurs are not going to have the time or the know-how to create meshes with pre-set variable LOD built in, so we'd need a way for the system to automate it. Unfortunately, there's really no good way at present for the system to intelligently judge polygon reduction over distance. It could be done strictly by math of course, but the results in many cases, if not most cases, would be less than pretty. For example, you could model the Statue of Liberty in exquisite detail, and from up close she could look great, but from any significant distance she'd probably look like nothing but a lumpy green blob as her polygons begin to reduce as the camera moves further away. That's a hard problem to solve. The alternative would be not to use LOD, but if you think SL's laggy now, imagine what would happen if poly counts were never reduced by distance. There would be very few computers on Earth that would be able to handle SL in any semblance of real time if that were the case. Another problem is bandwidth. If arbitrary meshes were to be used, the instructions for how to create every single polygon would have to be streamed to every single client for every single model. That would be an incredible amount of data. By using a common set of parametric objects as building blocks for everything as SL does now, the process is streamlined. Since every client computer enters the world with foreknowledge of ow to make each type of primitive, the only data that needs to be streamed is where to put the prims, what size to make them, how to rotate them, etc. That's a relatively tiny amount of information. Also, how to you calculate physics with an arbitrary mesh? There have been many suggestions on this, but none have been ideal. LL has said many times that they do want eventually to allow mesh modeling in SL, and when that day comes, we'll all rejoice. However, these technical obstacles have to be overcome first, and none of them are easy. One day, surface modeling will become a reality in SL, but that day is in the very distant future. In the here and now, what you need to do is learn how SL's present modeling system works, the same way you had to learn how Max worked back when you started with that. As a professional 3D modeler myself, I can promise you that getting good at modeling in SL will make you better at modeling in Max. Because SL is so limited, it forces you to use a specific type of problem solving intelligence that more sophisticated modeling applications let you bypass. The result of exercising those problem solving skills is you become a much more efficient modeler, both inside SL and out. Once I started getting good in SL, I found that my average poly counts per model in Maya were going way down while the visual quality was going way up (Maya uses surface modeling, by the way, just like Max). Also, my texturing skills increased at least a hundred fold. Give it a little time, and I'm sure you'll say the same thing. On a side note, nice name, LV426. "They mostly come at night... mostly." _____________________ . Land now available for rent in Indigo. Low rates. Quiet, low-lag mainland sim with good neighbors. IM me in-world if you're interested.
LV426 Slocombe Registered User Join date: 9 Mar 2007 Posts: 23	03-11-2007 16:53 Thanks for the detailed info Chosen, makes sense. Yer, I got to just jump in there and learn the SL tools, just assesing my options and increasing my SL knowledge base. do you know if the Prim modelling plugin for Blender is any good? Might be a good excuse to getting around to learning Blender!

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