Which 3d Modeller?

OK... so I'm ready to make an investment into a 3d modelling program, and have decided that I should ask here for some advice about what would be best for sculpties for me, in your guys' opinions.

I have used Rhino and Gmax (Simplified 3ds Max though not sure how actually similar) and am fairly competent in both... but am not sure if Rhino would be good for this, and I want something more than the free gmax (Though powerful it is)

I truly don't know the full spectrum of pricing for a single-computer license for most of these, so I don't know what is hugely outrageous and whatnot.

Investing in one would be for sculpties and hobby/learning, not for a specific job or anything, that's why I want one that works well for this....

I have the time *and* drive to learn any program I don't already know, so I'm not sure if I should go with Rhino, though I'm used to it. Maybe it's expensive too.. I don't know compared to other things.

Essentially I'd like to be able to edit NURBS primitive shapes rather easily, not have to go through 50000000 menus to get to what I want to do. I'd also like a command line interface if possible... that's something that Rhino had that I found extremely useful. Just about anything could be done with a text command if I wanted (I only use it to initiate things generally, as I can move better with the mouse, not by inputting coords).

And I want it to be something that is actually used in the 3d Modelling world.... the main reason I'm unsure of Rhino is it seems to be a more obscure reference than Maya or 3ds Max or something like that.

Anyone willing to help me out a bit with figuring this out?

There isn't really a single program that can do it all. and it also depends on what type of stuff you wish to make. Do you wish to make animals, characters etc?. Or maybe guns, cars and boats?


Maya is probably the closest to being the ultimate sculpty maker with Blender coming in a close 2nd.

Maya's sculpty convertor can deal with a model made from several objects. So you can make a dog from several objects (legs, head, tail etc) and the convertor will create a file that can be passed to a magical script (available on the wiki) that will automatically recreate the entire model in Second Life.

But Maya's sculpting tools are totally crap. So it's not very good for organic things like animals.

Blender:

Blender has decent sculpting tools but it can't create the *magical* script for you. So if you were to make a model made from several parts, you would have to upload and position each part manually.


and both the above programs are so complicated that even spiderman would struggle to climb their learning curve. For this reason alone, I avoid both programs and just use Maya for its great convertor.


The answer to your question is that there isn't any single program out there that will satisfy all your needs. It's always best to use several programs because every program has its strengths and weaknesses.

I know that there isn't one mega-program lol... that would be cool though.. someone should make one..

But I'm an architectural builder, and so would use it for prim-reducing, but accurate thigns, like tables and chairs that are not blobs.. like DanielFox Abernathy's wonderful picnic table set, that accurate and such.

I wouldn't really do much in the way of natural stuff, as I don't have an eye for details getting into natural things as they are so minute...

I just want a 3d modeller that can double as a sculpty maker once I learn how to, and be pretty good at making sculpties in general... not all sculpties.. but a bunch lol

And if Maya has the same general UI and such as Blender then gah... I hate blender so far, but I could do it if that turns out best for me.

The multiple objects thing though is awesome lol

I have to disagree with you there, completely, 2k. Maya has wonderful sculpting tools. I'm not sure why anyone would think otherwise.




I hesitate to turn this thread into yet another "why I love Maya, let me count the ways" rant, but seriously, Maya is about the closest thing to a "mega-program" you'll find. It's way more than just a program, in fact; it's a platform. There's pretty much nothing 3D-wise Maya can't do, and when studios need more specialization, they often either buy programs that plug into Maya, or else they write them to run directly inside Maya via Maya's embedded scripting language (MEL). Either way, Maya remains the main platform, and the other stuff works either right on top of it or in close conjunction with it. That kind of flexibility and customization is the biggest reason why Maya is so widely used in the industry.

That stuff is way outside the topic of sculpties though. For just about everything sculpty-related, Maya can do it all, with relative user ease.




I'd be careful about this. While sculpties can significantly reduce prim counts, they also significantly increase poly counts. It doesn't take all that many of them on-screen at once to cause a big dip in FPS.

The average sculpty uses roughly 10-20 times as many polygons as the average prim. If you can eliminate 10-20 prims with a sculpty, it's worth doing, but if it's any less than that, you're increasing the video processing overhead by a huge amount.

Managing sculpties is a lot like managing large textures. Use them sparingly and wisely. Don't fill a scene with them. Make sense?


If you're looking for the ultimate in accuracy, Wings3D would probably be the way to go. I'm pretty sure the Wings exporter is the only one that does actual vertex reporting, rather than surface sampling. That's how Daniel is able to create those wonderful things like his "sculptiples" and such. To do that stuff, you need to track the exact position of every vertex.

That said, the Maya exporter is plenty accurate enough 99% of all projects you'd ever do, and Maya has lots of other advantages over Wings (texture baking, compatibility with thousands of third party utilities and plugins, excellent NURBS modeling capabilities in addition to poly modeling, ability to export multi-sculpty objects at once for automated reassembly in SL, etc.). So if it's a choice of one or the other, and if price is no object, then Maya would be the way to go. However, even if Maya does becomes your main platform, there's no reason not keep Wings on the side for occasional things where you do need that additional accuracy in the exporting.

Of course, if some kind soul would write an appended exporter for Maya that includes the option to use vertex reporting as well as surface sampling, that would be awesome. I have no idea how large or small of a task that would be though.



Maya's interface kicks ass. It's hardly anything like Blender's. I see it as a tragedy really that Blender's interface is so problematic for so many people. It's otherwise such a great program.

Maya's interface is of course less than intuitive at first glance (all new programs are), but run through the Help tutorials and you'll be fluent with the basics by the end of the day. What tends to slow people down in Maya is not the interface itself, but the sheer fact that the program can do so much. It can be hard to know where to begin. That's where those Help tutorials come in. They do a great job of steering you one step at a time towards a mastery of everything foundational you'll need to know. After that, it's just a question of practice, really.

Maya is the only program I know of whose users constantly tend to find themselves trying to use its controls in other programs. It happens all the time. For example, assuming you do start using Maya, you'll undoubtedly one day soon find yourself trying to pan, zoom, and rotate a Word document or a Web page, as if it were in Maya's 3D space. It's kind of a running joke among Maya users. "Hey, I just tried to rotate my 2D Photoshop image in 3D space like it was a Maya model, hahaha." It might sound ridiculous just to read that, but once it happens to you, you'll laugh too.

To me, this kind of blind habitual behavior suggests that Maya's interface somehow touches something in our brains and bodies that most other interfaces fail to reach. I don't know how or why, but somehow there's a "muscle memory" or something that gets associated with the way Maya works, sort of like playing an instrument or riding a bike. Once it's in you, it's there for good. The result is we end up using Maya as much, if not more, on instinct than on thought. That's powerful.

Show me another program that has that kind of impact on its users, and I'll say you've found another great interface. Maya happens to be the only one I've ever seen that does that.




Anyway, I don't believe people should run out and spend $2000 on Maya if all they ever want to do with it is make sculpties. There are plenty of other cheaper (or free) programs that will work well. If it's in your budget though, Maya is fantastic, and worth every penny.

Havent read it yet, Chosen, about to, then I will edit this post, but I have to say before anything.. you rock.. you always give such complete and thorough answers when you answer just about anything lol.. I have a feeling you'd give a detailed list if asked what you had for breakfast ^^ (In a good way..lol)

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I won't be modelling only for sculpting, I love 3d modelling in general and plan to use it for art and a job eventually if I can, so price isn't too much of an object other than how long it will be before I can afford it easily ^^

I truly can't do anything very accurate with wings3d yet.. I'm learning though lol....


So it seems that Maya has quite literally everything I want lol... and a good interface too ^^ Is there a trial of Maya at all that I could find anywhere? I don't like spending so much on something and not knowing at least partially what I'm getting into.

And Chosen, I had that effect with Rhinoceros.. I recommend you try out the trial if nothing else.. I found that UI easy to learn and absolutely lovely.. in a month I was making images that look as good as windlight, in all seriousness (Models not quite as amazing, but still pretty good).

For now, I will keep working with wings because I do like it plenty, just need to get more used to it, but it seems like it can't do as much as the larger programs, and I want a full-feature modeller and such as well anyway, such as Maya, Rhino, 3ds, etc... If there is a trial for Maya I'll get that and see if it's something I could work with and such, and go from there ^^

THanks a ton!

EDIT:: Also still considering Rhino... a little cheaper for the bundle of RHino that includes some plugins I know how to use.. 1695 total I believe for a single user commercial license... but if I end up trying and liking Maya then might go for it ^^

Thanks for the compliment, Okiphia. Sometimes I'm a little too long winded for my own good though, I think. If I could figure out how to write shorter answers I would. When I get going, it's just so hard to stop, hehehe. I guess maybe that makes me the Juggernaut of the forums or something. Anyone got an adamatium helmet I could borrow?

To answer your question, yes, Maya has a free learning edition. It watermarks all your renderings, so you won't be able to use it for sculpty export, but beyond that it's fully functional. You'll be able to learn the whole program; you just won't be able to export sculpt maps without the watermark.

If you're already good with Rhino, it might be worth sticking with it. I've never used it, but I hear it's great at what at does.

However, since you say you'd like to get a job in the industry, learning Maya would be the smartest thing to do. Without Maya on your resume, it will be harder to get a foot in the door. If you can learn Max as well, that would be big plus for you also. Those two make up probably 80-90% of the 3D industry right there. Game companies tend to favor Max while Film companies and others tend to favor Maya. That's not a hard rule though; there's lots of crossover.

In comparison to programs like ZBrush and Mudbox, Maya's sculpting tools are very poor.

I'm really not sure why anyone would think otherwise.




When it comes to user interface, I don't really feel Maya is much better than Blender. I suspect you've been using Maya for so long that it's now natural to you. The frustration I feel when using Blender is pretty much the same as when using Maya. They're very complicated programs with far too many options for their own good. Some users have been using them from version 1.0, this means they've grown with the programs and had time to slowly learn the new features that each version brings.

But for a new user they're far too complicated and often require reading tutorials to get anywhere. Yet there are many programs available that are so intuitive that a tutorial is never needed.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want to beat you to death with a Maya 2008 box.

It sounds like you really want to use Rhino, so go for it. No reason to beat Chosen with a Maya box in order to convince yourself of the decision that you have already made.

I like the color green.

Not so much that I really want to use RHino, just seems it might be better for me because I know it. However, as was said by CHosen earlier, if I plan to be in the industry Maya and 3ds are almost needed.

Just because I have experience with Rhino doesn't mean I have to use it.. I love 3d modelling, because of what I can do, not how I do it. I can learn maya if I need/should

And it seems I probably should.. I'll download the learning edition later today and try it out ^^

I usually use Maya, but I've been playing with MoI recently, very user friendly in some cases but terrible in others (rotating, I still can't figure it out)

lol yeah!

I love MoI and actually created a post on the MoI message board asking for a more conventional rotation method. Turns out that MoI uses a rotation method that's quite common in CAD. I did get used to it eventually, and there are advantages to the way MoI handles rotations. But you're right, it's bloody awkward at first.

ooh beta..free...checking it out =P

You're gonna love it. It's made by the guy that was a leading programmer on Rhino. He left Rhino to start his own NURBS based modeler.

got it installed and such.. whats wrong with the rotation? I think its super simple and easy so far. .unless you're referring to something I'm not understanding

edit::

OK question.. so far it is truly awesome as a modeller, but just wondering, is it usable for sculpties? I haven't yet found a way to set vertices or anything like that?

JW, I plan on using it anyway, fun so far lol

You're a Rhino user. Say no more...



Seriously though - most 3D modelers use the Reg,Green and Blue rotation widget. Although the CAD way of doing things can be very precise. Especially if you have constraints (object snapping) enabled.

It is usable for sculpties. There's even a .3dm to sculpty convertor.

Check out MoI section in this big list of modelers:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Sculpted_Prims:_3d_Software_Guide

oh okies lol.. I'm just odd XD

I've been tooling around with it just a bit.. and I officially want to have its babies XD

It appears to have essentially all the power of rhino as a modeller, but simpler, and more streamlined.. it is a modeller, not a rendering/animation program.. which is all I need =P

I LOVE YOU!!!!

OK.. think I fuond my modeller

thankies a ton!

Okies... cool, so just use the normal .3dm converter that is used for many programs, awesome.. ok then

Do I have to doanything special to start with a sculpt-ready sphere or anything?

I can make a sphere.. hell can make alot of things lol... I love it XD

But yeah.... how do I start with something I can mold into a sculpty? I don't see any way to choose the 'slices' and such like some programs do

EDIT:: Since so far haven't seen anything like tutorials for making a sculpty from it, once I get it igured out for myself, I'll start doing some tuts.. I feel right at home with this program ^^

I was a beginner in 3D modeling and chose Maya 3D after some research. For one thing, Maya is the industry standard and if you love modeling you may want to work in the field and knowing Maya will really help.

I've been taking classes in Maya and I have to say I'm loving it. The newest version works well, things flow when you are working and I find that the tools encourage my creativity instead of frustrating it.

We encountered someone using Rhino in a work situation recently and I would have to say it put me off the program. It seems to be one of those programs that people use to a certain point and then stall. This poor guy was out of his league very quickly. With Maya, I find the more advanced abilities are always inherent in the simpler tasks and it is easy to become familiar with complex modeling without realizing it.

I also found that it works well with the SL skill set in that the SL editing tools were designed by a Maya expert and so there is little conflict between the two (at least for me) in how they work.

No matter which way you go, I hope you have a lot of fun; its opened a whole new world of creativity for me.

I will most likely invest in Maya once I have the money, upon trying it briefly so far its wonderful... I need to get used to it though =P

Wondering if I can get used to both Maya and MoI lol

.3dm to sculpty convertor is here:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/3dm2sculpt

I recommend using the 128x128 version.

If you create a sphere and then select 'Show Points', you'll be able to deform the sphere like playdoh. But even better is that you can draw a profile of your shape and 'Revolve' it to create your object. There's many ways of creating shapes. But when dealing with a model that you intend to convert into a sculpty, you should always make sure that they have a single surface. For example - a NURBS cube is really 6 surfaces and so that wont convert into a single sculpty. Yet a sphere is a single surface and will convert just fine.



As for slices - that's the great thing about NURBS, there's no need to worry about slices. But it also means you have less control than what you have when using a polygon modeler. But if you're just wanting to create general shapes then NURBS are fine.

Revolve is how I operate =P and deforming with the points..

Wasn't aware that nurbs could just do that without worrying about it, awesome!! Thanks a ton ^^

Tried it out to make sure Im not retarded and yeah.. fun !!! revolved a vase and shoved it in SL... I love MoI now lol

I would assume he didn't realize you were talking about the Sculpt brush specifically. In that case I agree with you, so just don't use the brush deformations tool. Maya is a great app for doing organic models like animals, just not for that one tool specifically.


slices, isoparms, whatever