Closure in Immaculate.

People of Immaculate.

roughly an hour ago a meeting had started in Immaculate to finaly put an end to the chapter called "changing the rating of Immaculate".

This meeting has however failed miserably.

Eighter due to poor planning or lack of interrest those 5 that did show up (miraculously even Misty whas not one of those 5) where all of the same side of the argument.
It seemed the opposition had failed to represent their so beloved Immaculate.

However, since this issue isn't just going to go away we do need to finish what we started and therefor another meeting is hereby anounced on Saturday at 22:00 hours eastern time.

I expect everyone to hereby be well informed and those who are unable to attend will have another chance in additional meetings if needed.
We're not leaving anyone out who wants to be heard.

To those who plan not to attend: be reminded that to not attend will seem to most as to not care.

This thread is not intended to discuss who is right and who is wrong, we can do that in the other thread started my Misty.

If only 5 people showed up, I'd say neither side was well represented.

Also you couldn't think that by not showing up, the 'con' side of the argument didn't care either.. I personally know 2 ppl that you rarely see before midnight on a weekday.

Or maybe people have said all they wish to say.

I know several folks who have either left Immaculate over this, or are thinking about leaving the game entirely (on both sides)... And this brings me no joy.

Siggy.

The person who called and scheduled the meeting didn't show up. Now you want to warn us that not being at this upcoming meeting Saturday carries the meaning we "don't care"? I think we that are against the rating change have made our positions quite clear.
Some of us will not be able to attend due to RL. That is why a forum discussion and vote is the only logical way to accomodate everyones varied schedules and time zones.

We were on the other side of the hill awaiting Misty's arrival by watching for her calling card to light up, we also were keeping track of who was in Misty's place by tracking them on the map. The hilarious part is that I predicted to my friends, nearly verbatim, that you folks would use it as an opportunity to announce that we "don't care". I wasn't too far off, only I thought it would be used to say that about this evenings meeting, but alas, Misty didn't show. Therefore you were afforded no opportunity to do so, for doing so would carry the risk of making it sound as if Misty "doesn't care" as well.

Once again, for the record, my vote is "No". I will not delve once again into my reasoning for being against this proposed change, as it seems to elicit only reactions of scorn and trivialization.

Misty asked us for our vote in the Thread "Attn. Immac. Residents".
Why my presence is needed at a meeting to say "no" is unknown to me other than for the pro-mature folks to further expound the virtues of their plans again, and again. We know what you want, you know what we don't want. Do you think you can sway our vote at this point? My understanding is that as long as there is one resident who opposes a rating change it won't occur.Could a Linden maybe step in and clarify this for us?
I count no less than 11 "no" votes and may have missed a couple.

BTW, the "Beloved Immaculate" phrase was coined by Misty.

And since the meeting was only a few hours ago, neither you nor anyone else has any idea of why she didn't show up.

I suspect claims of 'even SHE couldn't be bothered' are just a tad premature.

I, too was waiting on Misty to log in. When she did not I assumed there was no meeting. As for the low turnout, most people in SL never read the forums, Ive found, so you might want to make it an announced event, next time.
I am always out on Saturday nights, seeing as I still have something of a social life, but even if I weren't, I'm not bothering with a meeting if even it's organizer has better things to do with her time. I'm not sure about the point of a meeting anyway, as I feel neither the need to defend my postion nor to try and win anyone over to it. Right now I'm fairly cross at both "sides" in this as they both seemed overly reluctant to let anyone sit on the sidelines - which was frankly where all the fun was.
As for "discussing who is right and who is wrong" - I'd love to know where right and wrong enter into it. Last I heard, everybody is allowed to have an opinion. My opinion was formed last week by strongarm tactics and bullying, which I'm afraid I've never been very fond of. And as for this "issue", I don't recall anyone actually suggesting it go away, but it does seem to be pretty well finished after tonight.

'even SHE couldn't be bothered'

Can you please point out where this statement was made? I did a word search on it and only found it in your post.

Are you actually reading these threads?

Focusing on exact wording to the exclusion of paraphrased statements is the sign of a weak argument.

Or as in your case, none at all.

The sluice gates are really open now aren't they? The amount of vitriol on this is becoming amazing.

Folks, it was a simple suggestion. Noone not in need of an angert management course should have become upset over this.

I was at the meeting early. The voting took 30 seconds, the entire rest of the time was spent how to finish this and get our neighborhood back to normal.

The meetings are for the same purpose as the signs, to make sure everyone that wants a say has one, and that everyone knoew what's going on. If you have already decided and you don't CARE what others have to say, then by all means, skip it.

I can live with PG or M, but I can't live in a neighborhood filled with accusation and animosity. The accusations that have been flung around are truly hurting people.

I mean truly. This isn't a debating tactic, and this isn't a joke. People are being HURT.

Me? Say what you want about me, I'm happy as a lark on my platform playing with scripts, but I don't like seeing OTHERS hurt, and I don't like seeing the community hurt.

Forget the vote, forget PG or M. It'll all be over with soon, one way or another. If possible we need to FIX THE WAR.

I'll even start it out! I already apologized to someone on the other thread, have I offended anyone else? Tell me, and we can work it out! There's a good chance you'll get an apology as well!

Because I TRULY believe that some people need to apologize.

Ingot

I'd LOVE to know which people are being hurt and which 'WAR' needs to be fixed. Immaculate seems pretty normal and peaceful to me - or it was last night; maybe I missed something after I went to bed. There was certainly a good deal of friendly visiting going on during the short time I was logged in last night, with a lot of discussion about the new wildlife preserve and waterfall, but no talk about a war that I heard. In any case, unless I'm missing something, SL is still just a game and this is just a minor administrative matter which will be settled in due course.
The suggestion that some people need anger management courses - most especially as they are keeping things on such a civil level of discourse -is not really either constructive or friendly, but on the whole it seems to me that you are perceiving a situation that is not that readily apparent to others. The only person I've seen hurt so far was Malachi, who was attacked for having a little fun by people that he considered to be friends.

Would you notice? Do you hang around with the people that might be offended?

I didn't accuse anyone, in fact I think there's people on both sides that need to apologize. I was just SAYING so, in hopes that someone would take it to heart.

I know of at least two people who's feelings were hurt by some accusations. My post was just an attempt to get people to slow down, look at what they said, and try to mend some of the rifts. Not everyone in Immaculate is an old Usenet junkie, scarred and flame-immune. Some come from more polite places on the web, and are more easily hurt.




No, the issue of our rating is a minor administrative matter, the way it has been discussed is a much deeper one that I know has cause at least one person to consider quitting the game, and others to consider leaving Immaculate. I've heard rumors of much larger numbers.

In other words, I think you ARE missing something. That's ok, you dont' hang with the same people I do... I'm not pointing fingers here, I'm just LETTING PEOPLE KNOW!

Like I said, not everyone is hurt by the same things, some are more thick skinned than others. While sometimes I think an apology is necessary, and sometimes not, I personally always want to know if I've offended someone, or hurt their feelings in some way.



I did not say that. I said that this was a simple vote, and that noone short of a person that NEEDS anger management should have been upset by it. You can only assert that my statement suggest someone needs anger management if you think someone was upset. If that's true, then I stand by my opinion.



You believe that if you don't see it it doesn't exist? You know others have been hurt because *I'm* telling you. That's why I posted the message. If you didn't know before, you know now. If you think I'm lying that's another thing, but I'm telling you what you need to know. People are being hurt. Check your messages. If you care, then ask if you offended anyone, and work it out with them.

As for Malachi, I didn't attack him, I attacked the signs, which I was not alone in seeing as snide. Malachi himself said that he could see how those messages could be misinterpreted as snide. I apologized in public for my statements, and do so again right now. If anything else needs to be done, I will talk to him about it.

In other words, the issues with the signs is a perfect example of me doing what I think others should be doing.

Ingot

And about Misty not showing up,
I think neighter side of the argument whas happy with that.
I certainly whas not.

You are truly a piece of work. You beat your breast about people's feelings being hurt in one breath and in the next you call me an impolite, thick-skinned, insensitive junkie. I know most of the residents of Immaculate, but I don't even know you, so I must assume that you are either taking liberties with my character or that you are, in fact, my ex-wife. I ask you again, what people were hurt? And what accusations? The only complaints I see all seem to come from you. I was truly trying to keep things on a civil level, but it becomes crystal clear that anyone who wastes one second bantering with such a pernicious professional griefer as you seem to be really only has their own sorry self to blame for the dirty taste in their mouth.

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Once again, you're off on some strange tangent. What the text you are quoting has to do with my point I have no clue.
When you use quotation marks, one can only infer that you are quoting someone... ("Even SHE couldn't be bothered". In this case I am not sure who.. Was a simple question which you dodged with political rhetoric . Once again I find myself in the position of having to withdraw from a discussion due to the fact it is a waste of my time. Being criticized by wannabee internet lawyers is not my idea of a construtive use of time

Now where did THIS come from? I did nothing of the kind. Nowhere in my message did I call you ANYTHING. I never pointed my finger at you ONCE, where did you get these accusations?

I mentioned NOBODY in particular in that whole post, except to discuss the incident and apology between myself and Malachi. I very carefully AVOIDED pointing fingers.

Why are you assuming I'm talking about you? All I asked was that the people in this discussion review their posts, tone down the rhetoric, and be aware that people's feelings are being hurt.

I VERY carefully worded that message to be one of neutral political tone, and one of attempting to get people to make up and be friends again. I REALLY don't understand how you are pulling a personal attack out of it.



I am neither, believe me... In the first place I'm male, and straight... So a previous marriage is not likely if my assumptions about you and your tendencies are correct. In the second, I took no liberties. Please read the message again, and try to think in terms of someone being a peacemaker while you do so. I know that tensions are high, but I am ONLY trying to calm them down, nothing else.

As far as you not knowing me, that is easily understood and easier to fix. I'm a noobie, I have a plot of underwater land outside the museum, the one with the platforms and "modern" geometric look. I tend to be on after work EST, sitting on my platforms and playing with my scripts in my noobie fashion. Drop by. I don't have refreshments, but you're always welcome.

As for my previous message, if after re-reading it you truly think that it implied ANY of what you say, then you have my apologies. That was not my intent.



I have not been the victim of any of this, and I will not name people that have talked to me in private. If you think I'm wrong or even lying, then that's your choice. I'm posting this in public just as an attempt to let people know.

Some people don't speak up when they're hurt, either from shyness, or a dislike of confrontation. They SHOULD, but they don't. Others don't know when they've given offense.

I happen to know that some people were offended, so I said so, in the hope that people would want to try to fix it.

Beyond that, my duties are done. If you feel you might have hurt someone, then look at your messages, or ASK. I'm not going to be put in a position of debating what was said and to who. I'm sick of the debate, I'm trying to FIX it, not continue it.




Ok, to follow my own advice...

That offended me.

Ingot

Both of you stop!
All of this makes me not want to visit Immaculate now.

Ingot - you are misquoting David - I checked all the posts and only you quoted him as saying 'shit-stirrer'

If you are going to quote people, do not change their words. If you do, its not a quote.

If you look at the bottom of his message you will see that it was edited. I quoted directly, and only edited to the point of breaking it up into "talking points". I guess he had second thoughts about his wording.

As for stopping it...

I don't see what I can stop. I'm trying to mend fences, I'd be glad to meet with him or do whatever he wants to reconcile this, but when there's obviously a misperception about what I was saying, and someone took offense, then I need to correct the misperception (no matter WHO's fault it is) and apologize for it.

That's what I'm doing.

Ingot

I had sent a "final" reply from me here earlier. Somehow or another it doesn't appear here so if it resurfaces just know that my intent was to only post once.

I was one of the 5 at last nights meeting. The meeting was held in an attempt to let anyone who felt they had anything left to say to do so. It wasn't about trying to shove opinions down anyone elses throats. Had that been what it was for I myself would not have attended. I have previously posted my Vote & reasoning on the other thread & see no need to say any more about it.

I went to the meeting with the intent of letting everyone know:

I think that there were reasonable & valid concerns on BOTH sides of the issue. I hold no animosity toward anyone on either side of the argument. Although, I will admit that I do not agree with some of the tactics that are being used by some involved in this "discussion"
It saddens me to see people getting hurt over this & I am sorry to anyone that has been adversly affected by this in any way.
I personally think that our community as a whole is more important then ANY rating & while I do not presume to speak for anyone else, I do not think that I'm alone in feeling that way.
I would be happier to stay in a Friendly peaceful PG neighborhood then to live in a divided Mature one.
I believe that many here have said what they said because they believe in its "truth" based more on feelings & perception rather then just facts. I can not & will not "attack" anyone for their opinion & it would be my hope that others wouldn't attack or "strong arm" anyone else who may be rested on the sidelines or do not share the same opinion as themself.
I will no longer be posting to the forum or attending any more meetings regarding this topic.
For anyone who's not yet met me and/or feels the need to address any issues with me you are welcome to IM or visit me in game.

Peace to you all.

Malana Spencer

as an outsider, i'd like to *humbly* make a suggestion that might help with the scheduling issues with regard to the vote.

the person who put forth the issue creates a group (i.e. Immaculate Residents - or something). Every resident is invited to join the group. Put forth a vote for the proposed change in rating. give a reasonable deadline. done deal.

maybe if a linden is reading they would even consider a reimbursement for the cost of creating the group??

this is assuming, of course, that a vote can be taken with non-officer roles.... hmm, i should double check on that.

anyway, just a suggestion to try to help Immaculate out.

good luck!

I'm not on any tangent at all. Your direct implication was that even Misty couldn't be bothered to show up. You have NO idea that this is the case at all, and you're giving the distinct impression that you do. You know it and I know it.

Crawl back under your rock Nolan. You're out of your league here.

I just went back and re-read Nolans first post.

That doesn't seem to be what he's implying at all, at least not to me.

I read it as an observation on what looked like double standards - and reading the first post I think he made a valid point.

That by telling him that if he doesn't appear at this next meeting - it directly says that he doesn't care about whats going on... Which cant be so, because if several people including someone who organised the meeting couldn't show - it proves that mitigating circumstances play no factor in 'caring'.

If anything he appears to be saying the exact opposite of what your accusing him of.

Siggy.

Check this post for a related Linden annoucement.

Once again, Haney is the cool voice of reason. This is really good news for all concerned.

Yaaay! This puts the whole thing behind us! No more voting necessary.

Ingot

Oh my.

It appears you are attributing a statement made by one of your cohorts, Aynen Kuroda, to me: "miraculously even Misty whas not one of those 5" It's the only thing in this thread I can even come close to matching your quote as bearing response to.

I MYSELF never said anything CLOSE to the statement you are "paraphrasing", which most closely resembles the one quoted above, the one by Aynen....
And I "am way out of MY league."?
Your reading comprehension appears to be in some sort of stasis.
Thank goodness for certain new players "observations" and "solutions"' not to mention their literary self license. Where would we be without them?

OH, and Ingot, you directly quoted David several times... Who the hell else could he assume you were responding to?

For me this thread is over, usually when Eggy chimes in it is a good indicator of that.

As for my proud co-player Eggy, you can't see the world through a mirror...