Thinker's on Point-to-Point Teleporting

Hello!

Yesterday (November, 24th) a group of about 30 people (attendance fluctuated a bit) joined together to discuss in-world the issues regarding the reintroduction of point-to-point teleport in SL.

While this has been thouroughly discussed in the forums, it was an opportunity to gather a quite large amount (unusual for most Thinkers' discussions) of a varied group of SL residents that usually do care and think about implications of changes to SL's society, economy, and overall "look & feel".

The group was fortunately quite heterogeneous (admittance, as usual, is free, so you never know who's going to show up!). We had three real estate agents and mall owners/community planners; we had RL architects and SL architects; we had people involved in planning communities; we had shop owners and content producers; we had scripters/programmers; we had people that hadn't logged in for a long while, as well as two absolute newbies; we even had Babbage Linden, who expressed his own views and not "LL's policy" but who certainly listened carefully to the argumentations.

We also had a good mix of representative views on what Aimee and others are slowly calling "SL politics". We had advocates of utter individualism; we had advocates of open communities and more institutionalized ones; we had "economy agents" (otherwise labeled as "capitalists"; we had promoters of good content. Each of these "factions" view SL quite differently, from the glorified 3D chatroom, through the best self-expression medium available on the Internet, to the ones believing SL "is just a game", the ones that make it a primary or secondary source of income, the ones viewing it as a "platform" for collaborative content creation, to utopians and idealists looking towards SL as a "virtual country" with its own society.

All in all, it's fair to say that there was a quite a mix of ideologies, thoughts, motivations, and personal backgrounds. It's almost impossible to "reduce" the 85,000 individuals to a group of just 30 which are "representative" of the rest. Still, I think that most would agree that, while it was completely unplanned, these views represented a fairly distributed image of SL's opinions and thoughts.

And here is what they said

(transcript posted after requesting permission)

Angela Salome: : )
Angela Salome: Greetings!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hello!
Angela Salome: Glad to see that this is the right spot. : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're early : ) But yes, it is!
Angela Salome: I arrived some time ago, to let it all rezz for me.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh you're *wise*! Good trick!!
Angela Salome: : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I should do some group spam.... hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: feel free to grab a seat!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And hi, Mia!
Mia Hope: Hello!
Angela Salome: Greetings, Mia. : )
Mia Hope: Greetings!
Babbage Linden: hi all
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hello Babbabe : ) Well met : )
Babbage Linden: how's it going
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Roxie! Long time no see!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :—)
Roxie Marten: yep
Roxie Marten: how's jin
Angela Salome: Just been wandering around a bit.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Haven't seen her in a while, but she told me she has an "alt"....
Angela Salome: Greetings, Roxie.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... which I have never met, lol
Roxie Marten: hi ya
Babbage Linden: hi roxie
Roxie Marten: hi babbage
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sorry just tp'ing people)
Roxie Marten: I don't play that much anymore. so I am little out of the loop on things
Babbage Linden: gwyn, that's something you won't have to do for long
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ooooh that's why I haven't seen you around, Roxie....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Excellent point, Babbage, rofl
Angela Salome: Greetings, Babbage.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, you're right ; )
Babbage Linden: been a while since i was at thinkers
Barbarra Blair: I must fetch pumpkin pie, will be right back
Roxie Marten: been playing baseball and golf online. something I wish we had here (not so sublte hint towards the linden)
Babbage Linden: sounds like something you should work on roxie
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Roxie : )
Tom Bukowski: Hi everyonne!
Babbage Linden: we have physics
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Tom!
Babbage Linden: you could make a pretty penny
Roxie Marten: sure give me access to the source code and some good coders
Moon Adamant: hello : )
Basic Chair: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down
Babbage Linden: plenty of good coders around
Babbage Linden: hi moon
Roxie Marten: baseball and golf is something you gusy have to do . too much coding and how much land for a gofl course would kill us
Extropia DaSilva: Hello everyone.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm... I guess people'll need some more chairs....
Moon Adamant: hi babbage : )
Angela Salome: Greetings, all.
Noel Marlowe: Greetings
Babbage Linden: how much does the real estate for a golf course cost in RL?
Roxie Marten: millions
Noel Marlowe: Well, since sitting is still a little quirky... ; )
Extropia DaSilva: More than I can afford.
Babbage Linden: exactly and people still do it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ´hehe
Angela Salome: Free if you kill all the native inhabitants...
Babbage Linden: so there must be gold in them thar links hills
Gwyneth Llewelyn: : )
Extropia DaSilva: Hello Moon. Nice to see you again.
Prokofy Neva: Hi
Moon Adamant: hi extropia : )
Babbage Linden: hi prok
Roxie Marten: you see I have this little bubaboo about spending a fortune on make believe land but that's another thinkers topic : )
Prokofy Neva: Hi Babage, Hi tom
Tom Bukowski: Hey Prok!
Prokofy Neva: It's kind of like the fortune that people spend on make-believe content hmm?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sorry, just handling the last few tp's)
Mia Hope: Prok makes me feel better about how I'm dressed,
Prokofy Neva: oh this is just left over from Katrina Relief
Gwyneth Llewelyn: right, prok — you *are* formal today!
Roxie Marten: I finnaly get to see the famous prof in person lol
Moon Adamant: lol, hi Prok : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Roxie.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Beware, he bites ; )
Extropia DaSilva: What's make-belief about it? If it looks like a golf-course, and plays like a golf course....it's a golf course.
Roxie Marten: cool come on over lol
Roxie Marten: ext:when I have to pour sand out of my spikes, it's real
Babbage Linden: and we can use the RL land for cabbages
Extropia DaSilva: So code that in.
Extropia DaSilva: So code that in as well.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cabbage Linden. Hmm.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Roxie Marten: real like real lifem make believe is pixels on a screen
Moon Adamant: lol gwyn
Babbage Linden: haven't heard that before gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No offense meant, Babbage : )
Babbage Linden: np
Babbage Linden: none taken
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah well, should we start?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyone needs some extra Basic Linden Chairs? : )
Mia Hope: Feel free. I'll catch up when I return
Extropia DaSilva: If I should leave, I crashed and I'll be back: )
Barbarra Blair: It's all real life.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, ok, Mia...
Babbage Linden: hmm, i feel too exposed here
Prokofy Neva: I have to put on my antidote tital here with all these Thinkers
Gwyneth Llewelyn: you're in good company, Babbage :; )
Babbage Linden: i think i may need my back to the wall today...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahaha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: noo
Tom Bukowski: lol
Traxx Hathor: hi all : )
Moon Adamant: lol
Prokofy Neva: Babbage you might want to go into Invisible Linden mode
Barbarra Blair: did I need a shower or something?
Extropia DaSilva: Real life is pixels on your retina. Sl is pixals on a screen that become pixels on your retina: )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: To make sure I won't give out any personal opinion and let *you* all discuss the issue, I'll play "moderator" today : )
Moon Adamant: hi traxx : )
Traxx Hathor: we know your opinion!!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Precisely : )
Traxx Hathor: still waiting for stuff to rez
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
Prokofy Neva: Did you take me off mute yet Traxx?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Babbage, are you all right?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: greeting all
Noel Marlowe: Greetings
Mia Hope: Back
Traxx Hathor: hiya
Angela Salome: Greetings, all.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello Jeanne : )
Tom Bukowski: hello!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, for the sake of the new people...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Welcome to the Thinkers' meeting for today.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: hi gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have some simple rules...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: feel free to interrupt each other
Tom Bukowski: Traxx!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... but please no personal attacks
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Attack *ideas* instead.
Prokofy Neva: Gwyn had an excellent post
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, an... another incoming tp....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you need a bit of time to discuss things in peace... IM me and you'll have a turn on the soapbox.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which is to the right of me
Tom Bukowski: thanks for hosting this, Gwyn!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: While someone sits at the soapbox, the rest of us remain silent : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... any abuse on "soapbox time" and you'll be kicked, LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just joking.
Extropia DaSilva: Don't let me on it, I'll never get off: )
Traxx Hathor: we have yet to see that!
Amalthea Blanc: hello everyone : )
Traxx Hathor: hiya
Extropia DaSilva: Hi
Gwyneth Llewelyn: .... or will be, once it rezzes to everybody : )
Moon Adamant: hi : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're also welcome to our spam group, I mean, Thinker's group — IM one of the officers (prefects) to get an invite.
Amalthea Blanc: oops, went straight next to the soapbox lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Amalthea — welcome!
Amalthea Blanc:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and hi Mark
Mark Codesmith: Heyos.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and hi everybody which I may have missed!
Prokofy Neva: Could someone explain to me the *technical* reason why you can't *keep* telehubs if you introduce p2p? Isn't a telehub just a sim portal with p2p left on open?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, now I'll cheat for a few minutes and take the soapbox to do a running introduction.
Traxx Hathor: we might need more chairs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: May I?
The Soapbox: Gwyneth Llewelyn is on the soapbox now!
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: -ty
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, the chairs are just basic Linden chairs — you can get them in your inventory!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think you'll be able to rez them...
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In good tradition, we'll bring things discussed in the forums in-world
Noel Marlowe: No technical reason I expect. I would think no one would bother to use them if you could p2p
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... where we can shoot at each other, oops, that's not what I meant ; )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: For the ones missing the issue...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LL has announced that point-to-point teleports will be reintroduced again.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This means — no more bumping into buildings
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no more ugly signs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No more flying through border sims
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no more malls
Gwyneth Llewelyn: etc.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What it also means...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... it's not just a "techical issue"....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... but a change of geography: all places will look and feel the same
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No difference in "land value"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A change in the way we have organivcally grown — from the telehubs onwards
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, when the way our assumptions about this virtual society have changed...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... the society will change as well.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Think beyond the techical niceness
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Think about what it *means* for the virtual world.
The Soapbox: is now free!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And now it's up to you : )
Barbarra Blair: I don't think it will really make all places the same.
Mia Hope: p2p Will not in fact kill off the mall, only change their form. I know of several malls that are not on near telebus, and exist soley for the reason that all the goods inside have a common theme.
Traxx Hathor: Barbara do you think this would make Elvenhaven the same as Luskwood?
Roxie Marten: means you will have to think harder than blocking up the world with a ugly sign to get people to your store
The Soapbox: Traxx Hathor is on the soapbox now!
Barbarra Blair: No way.
Moon Adamant: hmmm
Traxx Hathor: thanks Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ; )
The Soapbox: Traxx Hathor is on the soapbox now, please hush!
Traxx Hathor: I strongly disagree that all places will be the same
Traxx Hathor: Waterfront
Traxx Hathor: Forests
Traxx Hathor: Gorgeous builds will certainly look different from say..... ugly commercial blight!
Traxx Hathor: and land values are likely to reflect that.
The Soapbox: is now free!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Traxx : )
The Soapbox: Prokofy Neva is on the soapbox now!
Traxx Hathor: yw
Moon Adamant: but traxx - will you actually SEE teh waterfront and forests?
Traxx Hathor: yes
Prokofy Neva: This is part of a plan LL has in many areas to take back a world they had once declared as our own.
Prokofy Neva: p2p is about shoring up flagging content sales of original adapters in part ensuring instant transport to their stores, which are not at telehubs
Prokofy Neva: yet the cliche about telehubs is based on lack of new impressions
<u>Prokofy Neva</u>Barbarra Blair has a puzzled look[/color]
Prokofy Neva: the new telehubs of the last year have no buildings rezzing in your face becaue the Lindens took care to put space and trees around them
Prokofy Neva: with the ability to turn off access, LL will turn into a sea of red lines
Prokofy Neva: how will new people know where to p2?
Prokofy Neva: p2p rewards closed, sophistictaed, elitist networks
Prokofy Neva: it's a blow against the democratic access and freedom for the market we had with telehubs
Prokofy Neva: beautiful builds dno't get shoppers always, and people should have the right to make less-than beautiful but functional builds
Prokofy Neva: I believe telehubs should be left where the Lindens can show us figures that sales take place there
Prokofy Neva: and that if they must be removed sim owners should band together to make business associations that would jointly own the former telehub proper land
The Soapbox: is now free!
Kitten Lulu: How will the p2p proposed by LindenLaba ctually work? Will we get teleported, fro example, to the nearest protected land?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1 minute of discussion, Moon is next : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and thank you Prok : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kitten: it appears to be that it will be like the Linden teleport
Moon Adamant: Olá Comadre : )
Shaun Altman: hi
Eloise Pasteur: Olá Comadre
Barbarra Blair: I don't think they've given those details, but I've assumed you will port to the landing point of the property.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps Babbage could say anything about it?
Eloise Pasteur: Hi all
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: won't it mean that advertising will be more important?

Traxx Hathor: hey Eloise!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, Moonie — take that box : )
Moon Adamant: ok
<u>Moon Adamant</u>Mia Hope starts pretyping[/color]
The Soapbox: Moon Adamant is on the soapbox now!
Angela Salome: Classified adverts.
Moon Adamant: ok, hello alll in first place
Kitten Lulu: How does the Linden teleport work, Gwy?
Moon Adamant: hmmm in rl urbanism space defines space and is by space defined
Moon Adamant: you have there what ishall call here 'atractors' - if anyone from urbanism area please correct me for the technical term
Moon Adamant: rl has many attractors - rodas, land shape, important buildings and landscapes
Moon Adamant: sl has very few
Moon Adamant: landscape, yes - untill people dig up their sims aiming to completely flat plots
Traxx Hathor: we don't all do that!
Moon Adamant: roads are not good for anything and important buildings.... welll, how many of you turn your houses to face the glorious build next plot?
Aliasi Stonebender: me, but special case in my instance.
Moon Adamant: so, basically you were left with almost only telehubs
Moon Adamant: they qualify teh space into a gradient from commercial to residential, public to private
Moon Adamant: unless we get some new attractors - or some regulation on building -what will happen?
The Soapbox: is now free!
Moon Adamant: thanks for your attention (compulsory.... : )
Barbarra Blair: People can build whatever they want now, so I don't see how that will change with P2P
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Any comments before Mia takes the box next?
Moon Adamant: ouch, sorry everyone i bumped in
Traxx Hathor: Mo
Noel Marlowe: No problem
Angela Salome: People group together for common interests, so those will be the new attractors.
Kitten Lulu: What about LL giving us the ability to place our own telehub destinations on our land?
Barbarra Blair: Right now all the telehubs tend to look all alike.
Justice Soothsayer: query - if there are regulated and unregulated zones, which do people believe would be more popular?
ian Boffin: less lag when getting to places
Kitten Lulu: If we want someone to tp there, we'll just drop a tp
Kitten Lulu: stores will do it, we will not in our homes
Eloise Pasteur: There are definitely shops away from telehubs nowadays, that are more attractive to me at least to those near them.
Traxx Hathor: Moon, you're underestimating the lure of the natural beauty in SL
Eloise Pasteur: p2p will just make it easier to get there
ian Boffin: i like sandboxes
Shaun Altman: brb
Barbarra Blair: p2p will be much better for small landowners.
Moon Adamant: traxx - i see teh beauty - but to be honest, most people apparently don't
ian Boffin: i'm a sandbox bum
Traxx Hathor: I like sandboxes too
Traxx Hathor: There's another point -- why FORCE people to go thorugh telehubs?
Angela Salome: Manufacturers will put in their own teleport destinations and advertise them in the classified adverts.
Traxx Hathor: I'm in favor of individual choice
Roxie Marten: making someone see yoru store becuase your by a hub dosn['t mean they will buy from you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, let's get Mia now on the box — Mia, go ahead!
Moon Adamant: but i am willing to concede that new attractors can be created, or that you can have regulation for, say, ensuring flight coridors for avatars
Traxx Hathor: good
Traxx Hathor: but let's eliminate the FORCED aspect
Noel Marlowe: There are some regions that are difficult to get to because of telehubs. You cannot tell the difference between a region that has not been drawn on your mini map versus one that isn't there forcing you to fly a circumspect path there
The Soapbox: Mia Hope is on the soapbox now!
Mia Hope: p2p Teleporting will not destroy malls or the socio/economic of SL. It will change, yes, but all things change in time.
Mia Hope: I've been to malls off the hubs that are functional and tie a group of products together, and yes, I'm impulsed bought there.
Mia Hope: Places away from malls and clubs will still have value, as will area's near them. And when you think about it, how differant is p2p then asking someone for a lift?
Mia Hope: And when was the last time any of you actually stopped at a hub on the way some place to do shopping?
Mia Hope: Instead of overreacting now about it, why not try facing this brave new world and seeing how it works, THEN condeming it.
Mia Hope: If anything, you'll see more malls as stores band together to try and draw in the customers they lost, or would of lost. It'll be a BOON for the impulse shoppers.
Mia Hope: Besides, I know I like to hit the smaller stores. Plenty of good deals on virtual goods to be had. I just don't like having to deal with the In Your Face nature of telehub malls.
Basic Chair: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down
Traxx Hathor: In Your Face is a good way to describe it
Mia Hope: Without telehub malls, I know I'll be fisiting shopping districts alot more often to hunt out what I'm looking for
Mia Hope: I know the annoyance of scoops and GIANT signs for a tiny store. Personally I'll love not having to deal with that crap all over the place.
Chase Speculaas: afk
Mia Hope: So, why not give it a shot? If it's really bad, this is a virtual world. The Lindens can always change it back you know. It's not like in this place permamncy really means ANYTHING
Mia Hope: And that's all I have to say. Thank you for your attention and time.
The Soapbox: is now free!
Traxx Hathor: : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Mia! : )
Moon Adamant: but how will you dfind teh things you're looking for? teh other day i did that experience and avoided all my regular shopping places , and lost hours and couldn't find what i wanted - unless of course teh implementation of a better serach engine is con
Moon Adamant: sidered
Mia Hope: Sorry
Shaun Altman: How will you feel when those big signs and little stores are next to your house though?
Mia Hope: FIND button works bloody wonders
Moon Adamant: ouch, sorry for teh typos
Shaun Altman: What happens when there is no longer incentive to tie them to specific locations?
Aliasi Stonebender: About the same as I do now, personally. And I live in what can charitably be described as the middle of nowhere.
Shaun Altman: get ready for the SL version of walgreens.. one on every corner in the known universe : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aliasi: Neualtenburg? ; )
Aliasi Stonebender: Yet there's STILL annoying signs and stuff all around.
Barbarra Blair: No, you will only need one Walgreens.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: mia really has some good points
Aliasi Stonebender: no, Gwyn.
Aliasi Stonebender: Eldora.
Traxx Hathor: we have wonderful zoned Private Islands
Roxie Marten: zoning wouldn't hurt
Shaun Altman: Barbarra: not if I want to capture flyby traffic.. I'll need one in EVERY sim
Traxx Hathor: Mia has some good points that would resonate with most people
Gerami Fizz: Why can't people form small alliances to keep unwanted business out? That's what I do in Alice.
Mia Hope: Traxx, nothing wrong with that. I live on Glow Estates
Moon Adamant: ah, traxx - but private islands are another thing altogether
Eloise Pasteur: I live about as far from a telehub as is possible on the Southern continent, and I have small stores around - they're not close to the telehub already
Shaun Altman: perhaps that's the plan : )
Moon Adamant: because private islands do have urbanism plans
Shaun Altman: Traxx: true, the mainland could just become a wasteland after this
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh indeed, Moon.
Traxx Hathor: I like PIs, and I like doing the zoning for them
Eloise Pasteur: There's one in the sim, and at least one in each of the adjacent sims
Shaun Altman: I think the biggest problem here is not knowing anything
Moon Adamant: so, you like regulating
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree Shaun, but I'll refrain from emitting my personal opinion today : )
Kitten Lulu: That could actually be good for landbarons, and I mean the term in a good way, they could help us self-organize our sims in district with strict rules. Like dreamland or alpha centaury.
Shaun Altman: Why doesn't LL publish it's long term plans, so we know what is supposed to happen as a result of all these sudden changes?
Traxx Hathor: it's how you do the terraforming
Moon Adamant: and agree to the importance of urban planning
Traxx Hathor: not regulating
Aliasi Stonebender: I don't see the changes being as great. Consider the time and effort spent currently by people to not have to deal with telehubs.
The Soapbox: Barbarra Blair is on the soapbox now!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shall we have Barbarra on the box for a bit? There are still three people left that asked to be on the soapbox...
The Soapbox: Barbarra Blair is on the soapbox now, please hush!
Eloise Pasteur: Shaun, they announced they were thinking about it a while ago
Barbarra Blair: Someone mentined the land barons.
Kitten Lulu: I did
Barbarra Blair: It is difficult to buy reasonalby priced land any where near a telehub.
Barbarra Blair: I happen to have a lot in an older sim
Barbarra Blair: so I know that the telehub itself does nothing for my business.
Barbarra Blair: It is what you do with the land--events and attactions--that get people to stop.
Barbarra Blair: I never even pause at telehubs to wait for the walls of vendors to rez!
Barbarra Blair: I think the world will be a more attractive and creative place when people stop plunking down boxy shops at every telehub.
Barbarra Blair: thats about it
The Soapbox: is now free!
Traxx Hathor: Totally agree
Angela Salome: nods.
Eloise Pasteur: I agree Barbarra
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Barbarra : )
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: good points
Roxie Marten: the voice of reason
Tom Bukowski: I agree
Mia Hope: All my favorite stores are far from Telehunbs, and are still there because of quality product, not nearness to a hub.
Angela Salome: I never buy around a telehub.
Moon Adamant: and what if it becomes a series of boxes you go teleporting one from another, like MOOVE?
Barbarra Blair: why would that happen?
Barbarra Blair: WE go looking for the unique
Traxx Hathor: Moon, why wouldn't we want to see the natural world?
Prokofy Neva: Many people's favourite shops are at telehubs though and they like the variety they find at them.
Traxx Hathor: Newly created sims are gorgeous
Prokofy Neva: Nature as conceived by Eric Linden.
Moon Adamant: because why would you take pains to make your sim look bbetter if your landing point is on your sofa, inside your house?
Eloise Pasteur: The good shops are already better than that, and if they're all equally easily accessible the quality of shop design is likely to improve.
Kitten Lulu: They like malls, they do not ned to be at telehubs
Traxx Hathor: I would not, Moon
Mia Hope: Prof. Simple. Actuall malls will start to multiply, just like the ones irl
Prokofy Neva: There are good shops at telehubs too.
Kitten Lulu: yep
Prokofy Neva: Well then why do you want p2p if you think malls are blight and that will proliferate them?
Barbarra Blair: No one would put their landing poing on their sofa.
Aliasi Stonebender: Well, Moon, simple aesthetics might be a start.
Eloise Pasteur: There may be, I honestly don't remember the last time I even looked.
Traxx Hathor: heh
Angela Salome: Manufacturers will concentrate on one retail location and not bother with malls.
Mia Hope: I never said malls where a blight, just the telehub "shopping districts"
Moon Adamant: barbarra... that was a literary figure, so to speak : )
Prokofy Neva: Well Eloise that's what I mean by the discussion being dominated by frozen impressions -- have any of you LOOKED AT and studied telehubs lately?
Barbarra Blair: People find places with "find" anyhow.
Aliasi Stonebender: I doubt even with P2P the folks at - say - ElvenGlen are suddenly goign to go "gee, we were ALL WRONG about the elven forest thing!" ; )
Prokofy Neva: Many people have a scarred memory of a visit to a telehub that is a year old.
Personal oppinion: (via Mark Codesmith) They should segment the mainland into groups of island sims that are all linked together through protected water sims. That way those who would like to have some nice land could group together into series of sims. Just my 2 cents.
Barbarra Blair: The telehubs don't help find anything.
Traxx Hathor: I like that, Mark
Prokofy Neva: People come to them Barbarra, they come in droves, camp them some time and watch them.
Mark Codesmith: Hehe, thankys Traxx.
Mia Hope: I will Prof. ^_^
Prokofy Neva: The problem with ath good idea Mark is that people don't just "get together" just like that in Sl -- it's very hard
Barbarra Blair: Not most of them.
Mark Codesmith: Ciaos later, this is really cool, will make sure to come to the next thinkers meeting.
Prokofy Neva: Barbarra can you name a telehub you don't like?
<u>Prokofy Neva</u>Tom Bukowski waves.[/color]
Moon Adamant: uh... people don't find places with FIND anyway... you get messy lists, you try two or three and then go to pixeldolls as usual : )
Barbarra Blair: Besides, I like being able to do my own thing.
Eloise Pasteur: I don't stop and look no, because either I (rarely) find a relatively empty one and fly away, or I find one that is just grey walls and I fly up and away asap.
Prokofy Neva: How will you be able to explore in a sea of red ban lines? I find it horrible to contemplate.
Mia Hope: HEY! What's wrong with Pixeldolls.
Angela Salome: giggles.
Traxx Hathor: I've done a large architectural project at a telehub when it first opened up. The place started out as pleasant, and ended up with the same blight as at any other telehub sim
Barbarra Blair: I don't stop at telehubs--I just zap out as gast as I can to get where I'm going.
Prokofy Neva: Well Eloise come on my telehub tour and I will give you a new impression.
Gerami Fizz: I think there will always be centers of attraction... if the telehubs go away people will just focus on something else, like popular clubs...
Moon Adamant: nothing lol! i am making her rich myself, mia : )
The Soapbox: Roxie Marten is on the soapbox now!
Aliasi Stonebender: I imagine you'll try to explore the same way you do in the CURRENT sea of red ban lines.

Roxie Marten: thx for the moment I will be quick
Noel Marlowe: But you can p2p, why would red lines stop you?
Prokofy Neva: What made the blight Traxx? It seems the point of making beautfil buildings as a recipe to keep away blight isn't working then.
Roxie Marten: mia said alot of what I wanted to say but I wanted to add
Prokofy Neva: Noel because everyone will say "I don't want any surprise visitors in my lap, I'm turning off p2p access"
Roxie Marten: for many of us it's about getting from point a to point b. to be blunt. If want to shop in your store I will. don't force me to to see it
The Soapbox: is now free!
Traxx Hathor: exactly
Prokofy Neva: Who forces their store on you? Name a concrete one.
Roxie Marten: this will mean you will have use your heads and think of something better than a ugly sign to get customers
Prokofy Neva: The thing I see most forced on me is the Lindens Waterhead telehub roof in my face.
Barbarra Blair: that is annoying
Eloise Pasteur: I'm willing to go look at a mix of telehubs sometime Prok, maybe tomorrow, but I'm not well enough to do a tour really
Traxx Hathor: forced is not what we're looking for in SL : )
Prokofy Neva: This is a cliche, Roxie, people have perfectly decent telehub stores without ugly signs
Prokofy Neva: Yes and that's why we shouldn't have telehubs forcibly taken away when they provide democratic access to commerce instead of elitism.
Eloise Pasteur: Some people do, I'm sure, but enough don't Prok.
Gerami Fizz: ...
Barbarra Blair: I think you have that backwards, Prokofy.
Prokofy Neva: Who is the "enough"? Eloise? The forums five percent?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have a suggestion — there is only Jeanne on the list to take the box, and that will be the last one, is that fine? And then it's "free for all"
Prokofy Neva: I don't think so Barbarra I study them a lot.
Moon Adamant: sure gwyn : )
Traxx Hathor: let's hear from her
Roxie Marten: look the bottom is line this. if I want to go some place. I want to go. if I want to sight see I will sight see. it's my choice
Barbarra Blair: Only the rich folk can get land near telehubs now.
Mia Hope: Question, who said Telehubs are going away? They still might be in place for when you pick a mainland Sim off the Map and just hit teleport.
Roxie Marten: and some us don't really care about shopping in the first place
Roxie Marten: thank you
Eloise Pasteur: Some hubs are good, some are not, in my opinion and only mine Prok.
Prokofy Neva: That's not true, Barbara, last summer the barons dumped them all and the middle class and even the por bought them
Prokofy Neva: This victory dance over land barons everyone is doing with this LL decision is misplaced, -- the land barons already laughed their way to the bank.
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes, I'm sure "land with an artificially raised value because it's closer to a spawn point" is FAR more democratic than "you can go anywhere."
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jeanne?
Roxie Marten: one last thing my sl experince is not about shopping
Prokofy Neva: They aren't artificially priced now Aliasi, that's my point.
Barbarra Blair: hear hear
Traxx Hathor: good point, Roxie
Barbarra Blair: shopping is the last thing that I want to do.
Prokofy Neva: And if they were priced high, that reflects their value for sales -- that is what freedom means.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: ty all i'm going to stay here please because i dont' walkd too wl
Prokofy Neva: Well Barbarra you are in a very distinct minority in SL then, let others be free and don't impose on them.
Mia Hope: Land Barons in a world where a pulled plug brings it all down....
Roxie Marten: prof:well don't buy the land.
Prokofy Neva: I dno't.
Roxie Marten: I don't either
Barbarra Blair: Don't see how I could stop anyone from shopping.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: may i speak please?
Prokofy Neva: I dno't have much telehub land and what I got was sold at firesale prices.
Moon Adamant: jeanne, sit on teh soapbox : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes Jeanne — you'll have to sit on the soapbox, please!
Roxie Marten: I wonder if this kind debate happened when they put the interstates through
Barbarra Blair: yes
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: first i have to ifnd it
<u>Jeannedellalune Prudhomme</u>Eloise Pasteur gave you Meeting hush script.[/color]
Barbarra Blair: ask me about the PUrple line in silver spring sometime
Midtown Bienenstich: what about the silver line to Dulles?
Midtown Bienenstich: : )
Barbarra Blair: same thing
The Soapbox: Jeannedellalune Prudhomme is on the soapbox now!
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: whoa ifound it!
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: that's an acomplishment
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: ty all
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: i think barb and mia have some good points
Midtown Bienenstich: Transportation in SL isn't fair, you HAVE to go through unwanted places and waste time to perhaps get some of your work done.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: as a newbiewho has a tencdency to get stuck in walls
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: i rely on notecards, suggestions and landmarks
<u>Jeannedellalune Prudhomme</u>Marcuso Collingwood nod and rubs the now perm-a-bump on his head[/color]
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: th eway i found this place is through Gwyn's blog
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: i was fascinated
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: the point is
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: if we don't use advertising, in MM, on find and places etc
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: no one wil find anyone
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: when i go to elf clan
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: there are lots of signs and information
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: about whats going on
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: i never stop at telehubs
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: last night i wen to sea cliff
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: i found out about it
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: through all notebcard
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: excuse me a linden notecard
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: if you have someplace interesting , u must tell people
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: ty all
Prokofy Neva: How will they find the p2 to p2 Jeanne? That's what I keep wondering -- how does a new person find where to go without the access of telehubs? Only through word of mouth or blogs of those with established presences? So they will control the access?
Prokofy Neva: Only those lucky enough to get on Pathfinder's Picks get to get a newbie p2p?
Traxx Hathor: good points, Jeanne
Roxie Marten: when i was new I found the telehubs to be a nusience not a help
Justice Soothsayer: p2p with improved tools for navigating through ads?
Moon Adamant: well, jeane... with a better search engine and HTML implemented ... maybe
Marcuso Collingwood: Ask me.. I am less then 48 hours old
Prokofy Neva: ads that cost $250 a piece?
Phoenix Byrd: Prok... I've never found anything cuz of a telehub. Mostly through ppl's picks or from flying away from a TH
Shaun Altman: Justice: ads where?
<u>Shaun Altman</u>Marcuso Collingwood smiles[/color]
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: i found out throughgywnn's log becaus i was curious
Amalthea Blanc: or sprout tourism agencies
Amalthea Blanc:
Traxx Hathor: Let's hear from you, Marc
Prokofy Neva: That's not everyone's experience
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh oh
The Soapbox: Jeannedellalune Prudhomme is on the soapbox now, please hush!
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: i even suggested a book, hitchhikers guide to sl
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: ty
The Soapbox: is now free!
Justice Soothsayer: ads where? how about a web site? Roam.com? Others
Mia Hope: SL models RL in that the best advertising a store can have is word of mouth. Don't you ever suggest your favorite stores for things when a friend asks? Prof...FIND. USE IT. Lindens, improve it please. Perhaps with Truth Checkers or something
Shaun Altman: Jean: and who controls access to the hitchhiker's guide?
Roxie Marten: a yellow pages would be great
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: i like the web idea
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... no more soapbox for now, people, it's free-for-all time right now : )
Prokofy Neva: Um, Mia, I pay thousnads of dollars a week for FIND PLACES ads please.
Marcuso Collingwood: Roxie hit it on the head...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Roxie: we have SlWebsearch and ROAM
Prokofy Neva: It's the thing that works the best, I don't need lectures about USING it
Amalthea Blanc: an inworld guide would be nice, more accessible when you're inworld than a site
Traxx Hathor: Shaun it comes down to a person's reputation!
Justice Soothsayer: i've found interesting places reading SL related blogs
Roxie Marten: marc:been saying that for two years now
Marcuso Collingwood: Autobooths
Traxx Hathor: these are personal recommendations
Shaun Altman: Traxx: reputation as seen by who? you?
Prokofy Neva: Fascistic control of the world through reputation controlling.
Traxx Hathor: individuals
Prokofy Neva: Yes, Shaun, that's what he has in mind thanks.
Shaun Altman: will it be YOU deciding who is worthy of publication in the SL guide?
Shaun Altman: or, if not, who will it be?
Kitten Lulu: LL, pleeeeesae, can we get LandmarkRank like Google PageRank but using tp data?
Angela Salome: The "Find" button with well chosen key words works well.
Marcuso Collingwood: Stream lined flight paths around megastructures
Noel Marlowe: If you make nice things, you become known for them
Prokofy Neva: Kitten that will just reinforce what Traxx and whoever hinks is right.
Traxx Hathor: you are referring to a publication and I am referring to word of mouth
Prokofy Neva: Word of mouth heavily controlled by the forum FIC.
Shaun Altman: Oh, we were talking about a hitchhiker's guide to SL
The Soapbox: Marcuso Collingwood is on the soapbox now!
Mia Hope: Put the Hitchhiker's Guide at the WA and give one to every AV in SL. Have it updated every time SL is updated.
Roxie Marten: noel:really? when go shopping I am looking for a particular thing. I don't have time to poll the people
Eloise Pasteur: That's daft Prok
Prokofy Neva: Who gets to be in the hitchhiker?
Shaun Altman: Mia: and who updates it?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: this is one of the nicest places on sl or rl
Shaun Altman: Mia: who decides who gets promoted and who doesn't?
Eloise Pasteur: I don't look to the forum for WOM, I ask someone wearing something I like the look of where they got it.
Marcuso Collingwood: Hi all Cuso here,,, bonifide newbie
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: i update it
Prokofy Neva: Not daft Eloise the 5 percent who control a lot of newbie impressions as mentors, greeters, helpers -- it's funnelled.
Marcuso Collingwood: Happy Thanksgiving...
Traxx Hathor: Thanks Marcuso
Shaun Altman: Jean: and why do you get to decide who learns of the existance of businesses?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: ty marc , likewise
Marcuso Collingwood: I have been flying... bumping.. searching... for 2 days...
Marcuso Collingwood: and for now... it is all new and advneturous..
Marcuso Collingwood: but I can see where it will quickly become more a burden
Shaun Altman: I wish that we even knew LL's telehub phaseout plan so we even knew if we had to be afraid of this elitist stuff : )
Shaun Altman: Why do they just give us these little blurbs in the forum?
Prokofy Neva: We do Shaun, lol.
Prokofy Neva: It's their world and their imaginatoin?
Shaun Altman: "we're taking out telehubs and rezing gathering areas" just isn't enough
Chase Speculaas: lol
Marcuso Collingwood: I see signs signs everywhere theres signs...
Midtown Bienenstich: How about an SL Web Browser?
Marcuso Collingwood: mucking up the scenery...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder if the "gathering areas" will be used for *anything*...
Moon Adamant: hmmm, if you implement html - and also a way to brings all those side discussions INSIDE sl, that issue will be solved...
Traxx Hathor: Marcuso, I agree
Marcuso Collingwood: sounds like a song no?
Aliasi Stonebender: (oh, if any of ya want pseudo-p2p right now, I stuck out Hank Ramo's open-source hyperporter deal in that red box there for free. enjoy.)
Midtown Bienenstich: WHen I try to buy a new product in RL, I always go online to compare prices and the like.
Shaun Altman: brb
Midtown Bienenstich: I think that having a web browser untility in SL would allow merchants to host thier store's info online.. and much more efficiently thatn FIND
Marcuso Collingwood: there should be a limit to the amount of advertising... seems all that is here is promotional
Marcuso Collingwood: Look at me... Come to me... buy me
Traxx Hathor: heh
Moon Adamant: exactly, midtown - and not only shops, but blogs, foruns, etc....
<u>Moon Adamant</u>Gwyneth Llewelyn clamps mouth[/color]
Mia Hope: I love how some of the most close and narrow minded people in life are the "intellectual upper class".
Midtown Bienenstich: yes, Moon.
Moon Adamant: why should they be outside sl? surely SL should contain it all
Marcuso Collingwood: now.... I am not sure of the polotics of the land... but
Roxie Marten: I agree. anyone tp to the hub. flew across the sims bouncing off security scripts and sim borders to find out the store dosn't have it
Lo Jacobs: Hi all
Midtown Bienenstich: IF the entrepreneurs are afraid of Linden-controlled webaccess.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 'lo, Lo : )
Midtown Bienenstich: Then they should simply host the site.
Marcuso Collingwood: but this in not.... how they say... player freindly...
Eloise Pasteur: Hi Lo, Osp
Midtown Bienenstich: but not regard any personal tastes.
Eloise Pasteur: Os*
Midtown Bienenstich: like no LL's tops picks.
Moon Adamant: hi Lo : )
Midtown Bienenstich: or Pathfinders "
Osprey Therian: hi
Roxie Marten: why do the store owners get to have the loudest say in this
Marcuso Collingwood: thanks.... just a newbied initial views
Traxx Hathor: glad to hear from a genuine new arrival
Midtown Bienenstich: The Telehubs were an interesting concept, but it's a lie if we say that they

Midtown Bienenstich: "promote" sales.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: ty marc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, they helped organic growth.
Moon Adamant: hmmmmmm
Marcuso Collingwood: Thank you...
Midtown Bienenstich: to an extent.
Mia Hope: You know what I hear most often from people when it comes to stores?
Lo Jacobs: I think telehubs helped but they didn't exactly achieve whatever it wasa they were there for
Roxie Marten: I asked phil he said it was to promote more people seeing sl.
Traxx Hathor: telehubs are based on FORCING people to go places
Eloise Pasteur: It to rez quickly, and for it to be easy to find the product I want
Moon Adamant: i confess i am pretty much afraid that people will just stick their vendors in top of their houses like some people i know ; )
Lo Jacobs: Yes, they wanted TH's to kind of become gathering points
Mia Hope: "Hey, that's nice. Where did you get it?" followed by a string of names and suggestions where to find things like it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft Moon.
Eloise Pasteur: Me too Mia
Midtown Bienenstich: IMO all telehubs have done is given land owners a great opportunity to buy land.
Eloise Pasteur: and lol Moon
Traxx Hathor: speculators
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: nobody ta lks to each other at THs
Mia Hope: I can't count the IM and times that's been asked of me
Traxx Hathor: Jeanne, you're right
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: they just fly off
Mia Hope: ESPECIALLY at the WA while I'm there passing out freebies
Lo Jacobs: Hey Rick : )
Eloise Pasteur: Agreed Jeanne, in fact it's the only place in SL they don't stop to say hello, even to complete strangers
Lo Jacobs: Yeah
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: thats correct
Kitten Lulu: cya guys and girls, I have to go
Tom Bukowski: cu!
Traxx Hathor: cya : )
Babbage Linden: bye kitten
Moon Adamant: ok... a question now that is troubling me
Eloise Pasteur: I've got to say though, I agree with Prok's comment about the waterhead hub
Mia Hope: Later Kitten! See you around.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: bye
Moon Adamant: and bye kitten : )
Midtown Bienenstich: True, but honestly.. while the "Teleporting" Bar is filling up.. I already have my fingers on Page Up.
Marcuso Collingwood: G'Day Kitten
<u>Marcuso Collingwood</u>Marcuso Collingwood bows[/color]
Angela Salome: Farewell all.
Eloise Pasteur: Why on earth has it got a roof?
Eloise Pasteur: Bye Kitten
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: to force us down?
Lo Jacobs: Hahaha
Lo Jacobs: I hate the roof
Traxx Hathor: the roof should be phantom
Angela Salome: Farewell all.
Noel Marlowe: Just make a TP script that sends you 300m up : )
Lo Jacobs: Everyone hates the roof
Aliasi Stonebender: aesthetics. a better question is, "why the hell isn't it phantom?" ; )
Chase Speculaas: yep, damn roof
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: antoher palce i get stuck
Lo Jacobs: Well I think it looks better with a roof, it should just be phantom!
Moon Adamant: seeing you can P2P, you just need one shop - or the roof of your house... : ) what are we going to do with all teh land that is going to be let free?
Eloise Pasteur: lol, ok, I'm willing to take that amendment
<u>Eloise Pasteur</u>Marcuso Collingwood chuckles at Noel's idea... and nods[/color]
Babbage Linden: moon, make a golf course
Midtown Bienenstich: The Waterhead Telehub has a nice parking lot though... gotta give them credit : )
Eloise Pasteur: Although it could have been built to be attractive without a roof too
Moon Adamant: mind you - i don't mean just hub land
Traxx Hathor: Moon, make a park
Moon Adamant: but who will pay teh tier for teh park'
Mia Hope: Put a mall up. ^_^
Moon Adamant: LL?
Gerami Fizz: There's a line between RL aethetics and SL usability... real people can't fly, so I bet the original builders didn't figure that in...
Eloise Pasteur: People won't put a shop on their roof, well not most people
Moon Adamant: the rest of teh sim ?
Traxx Hathor: nothing wrong with flying -- it's freedom
Marcuso Collingwood: What... you can't fly?
Moon Adamant: lol Comadre
Raffaele Pirandello: I have to go. Ty all and happy thanksgiving
<u>Raffaele Pirandello</u>Marcuso Collingwood flaps his arms[/color]
Traxx Hathor: : )
Eloise Pasteur: Bye Raf
Babbage Linden: bye raf
Mia Hope: Later
Tom Bukowski: cu!
Gerami Fizz: Nothing wrong with flying, that's right... but it doesn't mean that RL buildings will be just as convenient in SL
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: bye
Mia Hope: Has no one noticed how HUGE everything here is?
Traxx Hathor: yes that helps us to maneuver
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: flying certainly changes architecture around here
Eloise Pasteur: Ah, the SL yard debate: )
Midtown Bienenstich: 90% of SL are rotating prims.
Traxx Hathor: and it prevents camera angle problems
Midtown Bienenstich: : )
Babbage Linden: gwyn, can i give an LL perspective
Babbage Linden: ?
Babbage Linden: ish
Aliasi Stonebender: Correction: flying /should/ change architecture; it doesn't often seem to.
ReallyRick Metropolitan: Only if you work for LL Babbage
Traxx Hathor: say yes!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd love to hear that, Babbage.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol RR : )
Barbarra Blair: me too
Lex Neva: if he doesn't, I wanna know how he got a linden account!
Moon Adamant: lol lex
Babbage Linden: ok, the big discussion that drove all this was about making SL easier to use
Babbage Linden: at the moment loads of people are turning up, becoming bewildere
Babbage Linden: d
Babbage Linden: and never coming back
Moon Adamant: ora essa : )
Babbage Linden: making SL easier is a big focus
Babbage Linden: to keep those people here
Moon Adamant: *cough* interface
Babbage Linden: once they've arrived and given up we may never get them back
Babbage Linden: one of the easiest ways to make SL easier was to allow P2P teleporting
<u>Babbage Linden</u>Marcuso Collingwood massages Babbages shoulders while he talks... sorta calming[/color]
Babbage Linden: it is a very simple code change as we already have it as lindens
<u>Babbage Linden</u>Marcuso Collingwood winks at everyone else[/color]
Moon Adamant: lol marcuso
<u>Moon Adamant</u>Gwyneth Llewelyn wants God mode as well[/color]
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Babbage Linden: teleporting to an event and then finding yourself somewhere else is very confusing
Babbage Linden: sometimes you don't see the red bar
Mia Hope: I do have one question about p2p when your done Babbage
Traxx Hathor: good point
Moon Adamant: but babbage
Babbage Linden: i used the telehub to get here
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: sometimes u don't knwo what is
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: *it is
Babbage Linden: and was lost for a good few minutes
Prokofy Neva: This is totally unconvincing, you should target the premium accounts who don't buy land, by giving them more light zoning so they don't fear buying land.
Moon Adamant: you had P2P before... why did LL change her mind in first place?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: ididn't know aboutthe red line for some days
ReallyRick Metropolitan: I would prefer it be a BLUE line but thats just me
Babbage Linden: ultimately the businesses will gain more from people coming and staying in SL
Lex Neva: blue would blend in with draw-distance fog...
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: must be from boston
Chase Speculaas: yep, just you Rick
Babbage Linden: than they will lose in telehub land prices falling
Babbage Linden: LL and people running businesses want the same thing, the economy to flourish
Moon Adamant: but why did LL at some time implement hub teleporting, then? surely what you are saying has always applied
Babbage Linden: and that means people coming and staying
Lex Neva: That, I think, is the ONLY detractor to P2P teleporting. It may bea big one, though.
Marcuso Collingwood: perhaps upon landing... the silly smoke tunnel that Everquest uses would be good for newbies
Traxx Hathor: There's a difference between the businesses and the land speculators
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: i think Linden shouild have a newbie forum
Aliasi Stonebender: It's true that things liek land in SL has a worth directly proportional to the healthiness of SL. If Philip was to "lose" all of LL's operating capital in a poker game, we're all screwed. ; )
Traxx Hathor: The businesses might see this as positive, while the land speculators are obviously upset
Babbage Linden: moon, yes, but only after we've had telehubs for a while can we find that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Circular reasoning, hmm...
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: if u want newbies to stay
Babbage Linden: ultimately it was probably a mistake, but the thing to do now is set that right
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: ask them what they need
Babbage Linden: for everyone's benefit
Osprey Therian: Have you discussed the idea that was brought out about letting people set TH land as a "home" point?
Mia Hope: Babbage, how will p2p work if you click on the map? Will it stick you there at ground level? 6m? 10m?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not criticizing you, Babbage, but I think that I'd benefit from God mode for the Overall Benefit of SL. Just give it to me for a year or so, and then I'll be able to see if SL will benefit from that ; )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, sorry — I'll hush again.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: u go gwyn
Moon Adamant: hmmm, babbage - what about other things that would surely benefit SL, like havok2, mono, html....?
Eloise Pasteur: Jeanne if you and Marc want to write down what you think would make a difference and send it to either Pathfinder or Jesse Linden I'm sure they'd love to hear from you
Traxx Hathor: good suggestion
Babbage Linden: moon, those things are being worked on as well
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: sty
Marcuso Collingwood: I will be happy to.....
Eloise Pasteur: They're both looking at overhauling the experience for newbies.
Babbage Linden: p2p is probably better bang for buck than all those things though
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: i would like to do that, ty
Babbage Linden: and could be in before all of them
Traxx Hathor: And it helps retain older residents too
Mia Hope: Babbge?
Traxx Hathor: most of us get sick of the blight at some point
Babbage Linden: i've been encouraged by what i've heard here today
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Babbage Linden: that most people will be happy to have p2p
Barbarra Blair: The main question I get from Newbies is "what is the point of this game?"
Lo Jacobs: Yar
Babbage Linden: and i think that those who may be hurt short term
Chase Speculaas: yep
Traxx Hathor: : D
Babbage Linden: will benefit long term
Eloise Pasteur: It was a fairly predictable division, land barons against everyone else.
Lo Jacobs: Most of it because most people were uninformed.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: its clear how important this place is to everyone
Traxx Hathor: Barbarra, how bout 'fun'?
Babbage Linden: yes, newbies need to find what in SL appeals to them
Babbage Linden: but once they find it, they need to be able to get there easily
Babbage Linden: not find an event that sounds fun
Eloise Pasteur: What's it for? It's a life, what's your first life for?
Barbarra Blair: I ususally tell them that the point is up to them
Lex Neva: As a newbie, I got the telehub concept very easily. Then again, I'm a techie. I could see it being incredibly confusing.
Traxx Hathor: Eloise, a new person won't connect with that right away
Babbage Linden: and be teleported somewhere else
Prokofy Neva: Babage in my observation, newbies shoot up out of telehubs by the dozens
<u>Prokofy Neva</u>Marcuso Collingwood smiles and nods to Gwyneth[/color]
Prokofy Neva: But they don't stick because they don't find other people and they are looking for other people more than a game to play by themselves
Eloise Pasteur: Hmm, depends on the person I think Traxx
Traxx Hathor: true
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: as i said, ididnt' get the red line at first
Traxx Hathor: I think a new person finds community here, but it takes time
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: its the people who make this game
Eloise Pasteur: There is no more a stereotypical newbie than there is a stereotypical 'stayer'
Babbage Linden: as people said, most people here get around by asking for tps
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: if itis a game
Barbarra Blair: I think the bewilderment has little to do with transportation, but with the whole SL concept.
Moon Adamant: *shrugs* all who are here have survived hub teleporting, even if with permabumps on head... : ) quite frankly, i find the habit of air building at that height when avatars start to drop much more irksome
Mia Hope: SL is one giant social event. Some people, the Land Barons, are in it to "win". Some like my self are here to have fun, kick back, exchange ideas and enjoy the world
Babbage Linden: it's only the newbies that get lost using telehubs and banging in to invisible walls
Prokofy Neva: Babbabe how is a new person going to know what to click on? And if he starts random clicking and getting red lines?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: or stuck in ceilings
Gwyneth Llewelyn: One giant social event, one giant sandbox.... I like that, Mia.
Barbarra Blair: Naw, I still get caught inside buildings.
<u>Barbarra Blair</u>Mia Hope personally HATES Red Lines[/color]
Lo Jacobs: Yeah telehubs were quite confusing to me at the beginning
Eloise Pasteur: lol, I wish Babbage, I hit a nicely unrezzed wall yesterday
Prokofy Neva: Yes Waterhead still traps m e daily.
Traxx Hathor: Is
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: maybe orientation island needs to be more specific
Traxx Hathor: The blight is worse than confusing

Lex Neva: Wait, I think we ALL get stuck in invisible walls
Traxx Hathor: The blight gives a bad impression
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, jeanne, now we have Help island next to it : )
Mia Hope: THank you Gwen. ^_^ Just how I see things
Prokofy Neva: Your notion of blight is not everyone's.
Barbarra Blair: Orientation needs a philosphy lesson.
Prokofy Neva: Some peole are LOOKING FOR blight of the sort THEY like.
Barbarra Blair: "what's it all about, Newbie?"
Noel Marlowe: You will get there much like you do now. Via Find and instead of ending up at the closest telehub, you end up at the place you wanted to be
Babbage Linden: yes noel
Gerami Fizz: I don't think orientation needs a philosophy lesson so much as a cultural briefing.
Mia Hope: Prof is right. I LOVE Gibson, te Cyberpunk City. ^_^
Barbarra Blair: correct, Gerami
Babbage Linden: its the saying i want to go there and ending up somewhere else that's confusing
Mia Hope: I love it because it's cramped, "dirty" and nasty.
Prokofy Neva: Gerami, any cultural briefing would be too restrictive and funnelling, we need less of that
<u>Prokofy Neva</u>Marcuso Collingwood nods at Jeanne[/color]
Prokofy Neva: Babbage, honestly, what are you going to do when everyone turns off p2p access on their land?
Prokofy Neva: Randomly clicking on the map will lead to a faceful of red lilnes.
Mia Hope: Telehubs. ^_^
Babbage Linden: i dont' think that will happen
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd like to also hear a bit about that issue....
Noel Marlowe: If you have a shop or a club or an event, why would you turn off p2p access to it?
Marcuso Collingwood: but.... random clicking brought me here.... and I am glad
Gerami Fizz: It doesn't have to be restrictive... if well-written, it could describe the open-ended nature of the world, general etiquette, heck, even how to buy stuff.
Lex Neva: For that matter, what happens if you try to teleport into a parcel that has teleporting in disabled? Where do you end up?
<u>Lex Neva</u>Marcuso Collingwood smiles broadly[/color]
Moon Adamant: ah, good question Lex
Traxx Hathor: informative message
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's my question as well, Lex, yes, good one.
<u>Gwyneth Llewelyn</u>Tom Bukowski suggests "Purgatory Island"[/color]
Lex Neva: Informative message would suck. I could click around all day.
Moon Adamant: lol tom
Traxx Hathor: lol Tom
ReallyRick Metropolitan: Isnt there going to be a Town Hall on Tuesday about P2P?
Moon Adamant: welocme area, so... : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Warning. You've reached the end of SL. Welcome to Purgatory. Please teleport again?"
Gerami Fizz: Heh, it sounded like a prison to me.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: just like getting this servor is full
Lo Jacobs: Hehee Gwyn
<u>Lo Jacobs</u>Marcuso Collingwood laughs very very loud[/color]
Tom Bukowski: or just the nearest telehub?
Eloise Pasteur: rofl
Aliasi Stonebender: "You have reached the end of SL. There is no more. Now go outside and get some sunlight already!"
Tom Bukowski: assuming they exist
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, Aliasi : )
Osprey Therian: Is there any real reason why THs can't be in place to mark shopping districts, or whatever, as well as having P2P? Just asking - I'm not for or against THs.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: lol
Marcuso Collingwood: Laugh now Gwyn... I have beeen there!!
Eloise Pasteur: It's too late for sunlight here Aliasi, or too early
Mia Hope: I've been on SL for over a year, and I'm STILL finding new places., Every now and again I get wanderlust and I just start randomly TPing and exploring
Moon Adamant: but osprey... what shopping districts?
Traxx Hathor: I look at the big map now to find good-looking islands to explore
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, besides bounce scripts and people not having access to spots... we'll see the big anti-p2p conspiracy next, and anti-p2p spots as a measure of griefing. Oh, I'm liking this already : )
Osprey Therian: I have no clue I'm just asking to find out what ppl think.
Eloise Pasteur: We don't know yet
Traxx Hathor: The new map gives you a good idea of how the sim looks now
Mia Hope: ggggrrr Griefers
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: ugh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, people could just float in the air, 200 m over the non-p2p spot.
Lex Neva: I kind of doubt there will be an anti-p2p conspiracy
Moon Adamant: i mean, those who have shopping districts will keep one shop there - amybe - and the rest will put a vendor in the chimney : )
Eloise Pasteur: It may be that the loss of telehubs leads to more reasonable mall design
Lex Neva: I _like_ peopel visiting my land.
Gerami Fizz: If there are anti-p2p places, why not boycott them by NOT p2p-ing to them?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: u can put a money tree ay weher and ull get people
Traxx Hathor: Eloise there really has been reasonable mall design in SL for awhile
Osprey Therian: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, gerami : )
Traxx Hathor: Paradise turned out great before the owner left SL
Eloise Pasteur: There are good and bad designs Traxx
Aliasi Stonebender: I dunno, sounds like webpages that stick up unnecessisarily arcane ways to enter... if they don't want me, I'll go to one of the dozen places just like it that DOES.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... or RL, Traxx ; ) (sorry couldn't resist!)
Moon Adamant: uh, yes traxx - midnight city - shops to start with are inherent urban things
Eloise Pasteur: if there is no central 'catcher' like a hub, then the good ones will thrive, the bad ones will change or die.
Traxx Hathor: agree
Lex Neva: 99% of the time, when you go to a telehub, you are NOT trying to get to the stores around it.
Traxx Hathor: instead of requiring retailers to have 200 shops all the same
Mia Hope: Midnight City is a great example of a Themed Sim/Shopping district
Marcuso Collingwood: Who remembers the lil girls game... Mall Madness....
<u>Marcuso Collingwood</u>Marcuso Collingwood smiles[/color]
Aliasi Stonebender: GOing back to somethign Moon said awhile back....
Marcuso Collingwood: ummmmm got dice?
Gerami Fizz: Am I too old or too young to remember that?
Aliasi Stonebender: about "attractors"
Barbarra Blair: I think I'm too old
Traxx Hathor: strange attractors : P
Moon Adamant: ah, yes aliasi
Osprey Therian: I remember dirt and sticks.
Eloise Pasteur: Despite what Prok said my experience is that I shop by wom recommendations
Marcuso Collingwood: Barb you sure look good for being that old...... ssssssss
Aliasi Stonebender: One thing she pointed out is the lack of such things in SL, but I think this is largely because people haven't really done that.
Moon Adamant: yes
Aliasi Stonebender: I mean, in real life, you couldn't brag about being on town square 100 years before anybody got around to building the town.
Traxx Hathor: Aliasi two of my clients have
Moon Adamant: but then you have done some - like roads and railroads - and they don't work
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: folks the tryptophan is getting me i'm going to say bye now
Traxx Hathor: I'm very interested in how a sim can be profitable
Aliasi Stonebender: yes, Moon, but those are Linden-made things that serve no real purpose.
Barbarra Blair: What would an attactor be?
Gerami Fizz: I don't think placement means anything, from what I've seen... I live 800m from the nearest telehub, easily, and my neighbor earns over $50 USD in a weekend
Aliasi Stonebender: we don't NEED roads in SL.
Moon Adamant: actually i think that with time the real attractor will be the personal nets
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: thaks for great discussion
Barbarra Blair: By Jeanne.....
Traxx Hathor: cya Jeanne
Eloise Pasteur: But that's because in SL roads and railways are not so good
Eloise Pasteur: bye Jeanne
Aliasi Stonebender: but... well, I like to think of a few places in particular
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: bbye all , gwyn ty, marcus
Eloise Pasteur: We don't need or use them
Marcuso Collingwood: We will talk Jeanne.. well met
Moon Adamant: exactly, alisi - what for if you can't drive a car?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We don't need roads, we don't need transportations, we don't need anything, so, we don't need artificial attractors. What will "real" attractors be?
Mia Hope: You know, I'm not here for the money really.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And bye Jeanne
Moon Adamant: aliasi* sorry
Aliasi Stonebender: In my own home sim of Eldora - we have people who moved in specifically because of the Squidsoft complex there.
Barbarra Blair: LIke right now the most popular places are those with "camping" chairs.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quality buildings as attractors?
Babbage Linden: gwyn, fun!
Osprey Therian: in the future cars will be better and we'll want roads
Eloise Pasteur: Word of mouth
<u>Eloise Pasteur</u>Lex Neva preens.[/color]
Moon Adamant: hmmm, with time.... people
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, fun.
Gerami Fizz: Well, I just meant nobody has trouble finding the shop...
Barbarra Blair: Bunch of zombies in chairs.
Moon Adamant: and you see it happening in Io already, if i may mention it Comadre
Noel Marlowe: Fun stuff as attactors
Eloise Pasteur: I'll shop in a dull box if it's got the access I need
Traxx Hathor: well my clients definitely want a sim that pays its way
Aliasi Stonebender: In Boardman, once a bunchof people got interested in keeping a good feel, it went from a experimental zoned sim nobody much cared about t... what was that auction up to, again?
Traxx Hathor: That's surprisingly hard
Aliasi Stonebender: Indigo, Luskwood... the list goes on.
Osprey Therian: we need better organising/finding abilities so ppl can find what they want
Eloise Pasteur: Yes, I agree Osprey
Gwyneth Llewelyn: SLoogle : )
Osprey Therian: be it object, event, etc
Moon Adamant: the thing is... we haven't found out attractors - and we haven't found hmmm
Aliasi Stonebender: heck, for a bit I had some friends in Royal, one of the newer northern sims, doing the same thing... unfortunately, some of 'em had ot pull up stakes.
Osprey Therian: then we don't need attractors
Babbage Linden: yes, that is important
Moon Adamant: differentiation as well
Babbage Linden: as SL gets bigger
Traxx Hathor: Right now sim owners thing SLINGO is an attractor
Babbage Linden: search needs to get better
Eloise Pasteur: with p2p do we need attractors?
Moon Adamant: ah, yes osprey - you WILL not - mark teh future tense
Traxx Hathor: They feel forced to have slingo games
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what you mean is that, like the Web, we'll go from attractors to Google.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm.
Babbage Linden: p2p makes the long tail better
Aliasi Stonebender: well, Gwyn, I wouldn't say that
Traxx Hathor: the retail tenants clamour for it
Mia Hope: I've NEVER played Slingo. -.-
Barbarra Blair: me neither
Aliasi Stonebender: Google is good for the first search, but ultimately, I've found it's a bit like a less-broken SL find.
Moon Adamant: me neither : )
Noel Marlowe: Me neither
Traxx Hathor: me either, Mia
Babbage Linden: people will find it easier to go to places that are recommended or searched for
Eloise Pasteur: If it's equally easy to get anywhere, we don't need zoning and landmarks like "It's on the market square"
Gerami Fizz: Even if it's like Google, you have to be searching -for- something you want...
Eloise Pasteur: me neither Mia.
Osprey Therian: I am always telling ppl about places to see, things to do - I find they JUST DON'T KNOW
Aliasi Stonebender: you reall yhave to dig, and ther,e sites that compile other sites of a specific nature are useful.
Marcuso Collingwood: I understand that Mia.. and Traxx... but in my 2 days here... where do you think all the BIG ads directed me...
Marcuso Collingwood: Sitters and Slingo's
Noel Marlowe: Guess the big question is: What do people want to do here?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, but in the Web marketing business this is also a serious question. With Google, people simply don't drop into the front page anymore. This means loss of revenue and a different concept of web design that doesn't require people to go through a
Gwyneth Llewelyn: fixed path.
Traxx Hathor: I know, Marc
Mia Hope shouts: HAVE FUN!
Traxx Hathor: : )
Barbarra Blair: People want to have fun and earn Lindens.
Moon Adamant: the thing is... the ads are messy, as we know - and full of XXXXXs, lol
Noel Marlowe: Well that narrows things down. ; )
Marcuso Collingwood: And finding you guys has been the most fun I have had...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: awww thank you Marcuso : )
<u>Gwyneth Llewelyn</u>Marcuso Collingwood wipes a little tear[/color]
Moon Adamant: but won't we get even more of them, with even more XXXXXXs?
Eloise Pasteur: Well join thinkers and come back marcuso: )
Moon Adamant: lol marcuso
Aliasi Stonebender: Well, Gwyn, I'd argue that those websites need ot learn to use the no-listing feature of Google a little better. ; )
Prokofy Neva: The lack of Slingo alternatives is a problem for content creators to address by making content, not restricting Slingo.
Osprey Therian: They need to be able to find out what's available, then they can go directly there.
Barbarra Blair: And yet discussions are frequenlty poorly attended.
Barbarra Blair: Oh well.
Aliasi Stonebender: but not this one!
Moon Adamant: hmmmmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aliasi — that's precisely the point. You're *very very* right. Google changed the landscape of Web pages, and people still haven't adapted to *that*.
Traxx Hathor: I'm a big fan of word of mouth reccomendations -- it's another way of experiencing community
Barbarra Blair: No, It is alwasy great when you can get a crowd together to talk,
Tom Bukowski: One thing I tried once was a discussion/dance at the Shelter - some people didn't like it, but I'd like to try it again sometime
ReallyRick Metropolitan: Those who want to get involed will. Most dont and that is not why they are in SL.
Gerami Fizz: I'm off my regular schedule... I'm physically able to be here this week!

Aliasi Stonebender: But doe sthat make Google the bad thing?
Osprey Therian: we need SLOOGLE
Prokofy Neva: That's just a restricted clique as a recipe Traxx, that's not an open society.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Aliasi
Moon Adamant: exactly Osprey!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not at all, Alisi.
Mia Hope: ELGOOG
Aliasi Stonebender: that's why I find the p2p argument a bit mystifying. "things will change!" well, yeah.
Gerami Fizz: You know, I was thinking about SLOOGLE today... has anyone contacted Google about it?
Traxx Hathor: for the better
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They did on the Web as well.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Portals" dying.
Osprey Therian: p2p is half of it
Barbarra Blair: Prokofy, I'm not sure that word "restricted" means why you think it means.
Prokofy Neva: Aliasi, when something you like and take for granted changes, I'm looking forward to hearing your philosophical nostrums about change is good and inevitable etc
Aliasi Stonebender: Well, Gwyn, the big "try to serve you everything through a restricted vision" portals did.
Mia Hope: Well folks, it's been fun listening and throwing ideas out, but I have to run now.
Osprey Therian: the other half is knowing where to go
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Aliasi. They did.
Aliasi Stonebender: Prok, I'm *living* in it.
Eloise Pasteur: Bye Mia
Babbage Linden: bye mia
<u>Babbage Linden</u>Marcuso Collingwood gets all funny fidgetty for a moment.....[/color]
Traxx Hathor: cya Mia
Moon Adamant: bye Mia : )
Marcuso Collingwood: Oh man... Slingo in 5 minutes!!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you for coming, Mia : )
Mia Hope: I shall try to attend again at a later date. I was a real pleasure
Aliasi Stonebender: but portals that instead /usefully/ index information still seem popular.
Marcuso Collingwood: Just kidding
Tom Bukowski: cya!
Moon Adamant: lol marcuso
Traxx Hathor: heh
Barbarra Blair: Bye everyone--see you again soon.
Traxx Hathor: bye Barbarra
Mia Hope: Thank you Thinker's officers for again stimulating my mind.
Eloise Pasteur: Bye Barbarra
Babbage Linden: bye
Marcuso Collingwood: I am outta here too... thanks for letting me participate.. I will return
Moon Adamant: bye barbarra
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aliasi — perhaps people in SL can learn from those ideas (ie. "portals with interesting information" and somehow "translate" it to our virtual world.
Eloise Pasteur: Bye Marc
Moon Adamant: and bye marcuso : )
Traxx Hathor: guess the meeting's breaking up
Aliasi Stonebender: I'd hope so.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes
Traxx Hathor: I'll get back to work!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We're well beyond our appointed slot : )
Eloise Pasteur: lol, see you Traxx
Traxx Hathor: Thanks for hosting, Gwn, and bye all!
Marcuso Collingwood: I did not talk about lag.... but when I arrived at this meeting.. I had a crew cut and black hair
Moon Adamant: see you traxx : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks for coming, I'll probably post the log of it to the Thinkers' forum, if nobody minds...
<u>Gwyneth Llewelyn</u>Marcuso Collingwood winks[/color]
Tom Bukowski: ty so much Gwyn
Noel Marlowe: Yes, thanks Gwyn
Sean Gorham: yes, please do, gwyn. i got here just in time for it to break up.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww Sean! Ok
Sean Gorham: heh, no worries.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since nobody seemed to mind, I'll do a copy of the log then.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And sorry for not being too neutral, LOL
Prokofy Neva: yes plesae do
Babbage Linden: gwyn, you should probably add a note about my bts being my understanding of the linden discussion
Tom Bukowski: It wasn't you Sean lol
Osprey Therian: Maybe we need a cruising resident SLOOGLEBOT to input info about what's going on.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although Aliasi gave me something to think about : )
Sean Gorham: sure, sure, tom.
Babbage Linden: i get the mails, but i'm still 6000 miles away
Gerami Fizz: I think we'd need a team of SLOOGLEBOTs
Osprey Therian: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Babbage — your comment right at the end will be part of the log as well : )
Gerami Fizz: Or, you know... reporters...
Osprey Therian: TorleySloogleBot
Babbage Linden: heh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well gerami — take a look at ROAM and SLWebsearch.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They're "prototypes" for SLOOGLE
Gerami Fizz: I've checked out ROAM
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And even copy their look & feel, hehe
Eloise Pasteur: And have a look at the infohub too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's a start.
Gerami Fizz: the SLOOGLE comment just took my by surprise because I was thinking about it independently
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And by 2019, imagine — you'll even have HTML-on-a-prim!
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Aliasi Stonebender: yeah, right now SL searching is still in the "AltaVista" stage. I.e., mostly useless.
Moon Adamant: lol, gwyn - you're being optimistical
Noel Marlowe: Hmmm, I wonder about portalized copies of sandboxes
Osprey Therian: we'll be telepathic by then
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, perhaps XYZML or whatever we'll use in 2019...
Gerami Fizz: I wouldn't say so... it's pretty good for places that know how to be found.
Moon Adamant: i'd say 2039....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Moon : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The point being, better search facilities *will* come to Sl, sooner or later.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Probably later ; )
Moon Adamant: hmmmmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Osprey Therian: need it sooner
Moon Adamant: later, i'd say
Osprey Therian: things hinge upon it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It definitely is starting to be an "important" issue. Anyone has ever searched the Classifieds? : )
Moon Adamant: yes osprey
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Os!
Moon Adamant: specially when you'll have people advertising like they never did
Prokofy Neva: I'm amazed when I get customers who say they found me in the classifieds because it looks like a mess.
Osprey Therian: Want time-organised classifieds
Eloise Pasteur: I've never used the classifieds
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm amazed as well, prokofy! I can't ever find anything there
Gerami Fizz: Heh.. one look and I decided it was another "find events"
Prokofy Neva: Ok well can you accept that not everyone has that experience?
Eloise Pasteur: i think I once went somewhere that was listed on the classifieds because I saw it on the map
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Eloise Pasteur: Oh yes, I'm possibly unique in not using them
Noel Marlowe: Usually I stick to people and places. Less noise
Aliasi Stonebender: it's needed. But more then search, we need the local equivilent of a AAA guide. Or better yet, *several*.
Prokofy Neva: Eloise, what would work for you? Could it be the things you want to find just aren't here?
Moon Adamant: i never went to classifieds myself, lol
Prokofy Neva: And they are yet to be created? I mean cultural events that you'd like and not Slingo.
Osprey Therian: I think the map tie-ins to things help us find things.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Start writing it, Aliasi : )
Aliasi Stonebender: Heh, for a moment, I was - I used to do exploring for InfoNet, remember?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, that was a smart move, Osprey, I agree.
Eloise Pasteur: Things I see that I want to buy, I ask the person where they got.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's right, Aliasi!
Eloise Pasteur: got it*
Osprey Therian: There are tons of things that fall through the cracks because no one knows of them.
Eloise Pasteur: Other things I build/script for myself
Prokofy Neva: Eloise, but that just makes for a very tightly controlled elitist world, where word of mouth of only the elite is used -- most people want more diversity in shopping
Aliasi Stonebender: Too time-consuming for me to properly devote time to it, though... I still jot down a few places I run across.
Moon Adamant: well, actually when i do like something i searchfor teh shop using the profile of the creator
Eloise Pasteur: I disagree Prok
Moon Adamant: ... faster
Eloise Pasteur: if I see something I want to buy I ask the person wearing it.
Prokofy Neva: Well Eloise, word of mouth radiates out from those with the most words in their biggest mouths.
Eloise Pasteur: Or using it.
Gerami Fizz: Speaking of falling through the cracks... it seems to me that some of the most carefully crafted places just aren't searchable
Noel Marlowe: You can't make anyone listen and you can't stop anyone from talking, excepting mute
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Prokofy — that's a wonderful quote : )
ReallyRick Metropolitan: *rasies ahnd*
Eloise Pasteur: Word of mouth also radiates most often from those most satisfied or dissatisfied.
Aliasi Stonebender: but, Prok, that would mean you are a bonfire of influence. I think I could compare the totality of your blog with a Steven King blockbuster. ; )
Prokofy Neva: Eloise, people shop by flying around and shopping randomly and impulse buying -- that's what MOST people do
Eloise Pasteur: You have a fair reputation for making your opinions known Prok
Prokofy Neva: Yeah I guess so Aliasi who knows.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I miss Persephone — she'd have some good thoughts on "word-of-mouth" marketing...
Prokofy Neva: It's just one way things are done -- word of mouth, friend recommendations, classifieds, FIND -- I find that FIND produces most sales
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And not impulse shopping, prokofy?
Eloise Pasteur: And I have to say, with no insult intended, I'm not going to ask you where you got your suit, unless I suddenly start shopping for men.
Prokofy Neva: yes that too I said that
Moon Adamant: i am sure i don't have the same FIND engine of you people...lol
ReallyRick Metropolitan: The LindeX is closing?
Noel Marlowe: If Find produces more sales, then how does sync that with the earlier claim that most people impulse buy?
Eloise Pasteur: I think that you might find other businesses have different models of how people find them too Prok
Noel Marlowe: Most sales
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would be interesting to see the small, tight environment of the e-Commerce sites. The only thing I *know* about them is that people shop often from the "popular items", independently from "choice" or "word of mouth"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm not sure, however, how much that percentage is in terms of overall sales
ReallyRick Metropolitan: Janui Wu in the forums just posted there was an announcement the LindeX was closing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "popular items" shopping is the equivalent of in-world impulse shopping.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: what, RR?!?! pfft
Prokofy Neva: There's a small but determined elite here that wants to make the whole world run that way, by recommendations only from their commerce circles, but fortunately most people ovveride that.
Eloise Pasteur: Hmm, I have 3 in world vensors, and sell on SLEx and SLB
ReallyRick Metropolitan: /130/4b/73576/1.html
Eloise Pasteur: I sell about 95% through SLEx and SLB
Moon Adamant: oh, gwyn, of course if you have a pic in the opening pagea lot of people will buy it... they'll remember they were looking for something just like that the previous week, etc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In my case, it's 99.99%, Eloise, but I get more sales when *one* of my items hits the "popular places", ie. the homepage
Lo Jacobs: I make very few sales from websites.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's it, Moon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is "impulse shopping"
Gerami Fizz: There' a small elite that want people to buy stuff that people genuinely think is good?
ReallyRick Metropolitan: If the LindeX is closing I didnt see the announcement
Sean Gorham: i think jauani is poking fun again.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: RR: it's a troll ; ) Remember, it comes from Jauani : )
Lo Jacobs: Yep
Lo Jacobs: That's our Wu.
ReallyRick Metropolitan: ah
Prokofy Neva: Not everyone does tho Germai, and tastes and cultures and classes DIFFER, it's not all about "the excellent stuff" for eVERYONE
Lo Jacobs: LOL
Noel Marlowe: Lo, what is the quality of the image on the website compared in game? I think that is what scared me from buying on the web.
Moon Adamant: hmmm noel
Prokofy Neva: well there are some people cashing out a lot I wouldn't be surprised if they did close it
Moon Adamant: now imagine you could be INSIDE SL and actually looking at the webpage, having those doubts and go there and see? it would be great
Prokofy Neva: Eloise, can you accept that not EVERYONE has 95 percent of their sales from SLEX, that some people -- quite a few -- have their sales from telehub malls, stalls, impulse buys, stores, seeing in world? depends on the person and the product
Noel Marlowe: Why not go there directly? : )
ReallyRick Metropolitan: I think LL doesnt charge enough for SL. Accounts should be like $50 a month
Prokofy Neva: A person selling sounds is going to need a place where that sound could be heard, for example
Noel Marlowe: Ack!
Gerami Fizz: $50 a month and I'd be gone INSTANTLY
Lo Jacobs: Oh -- Noel, I am very choosy about picture quality -- I think I also just don't publicize being on a website.
ReallyRick Metropolitan: Well maybe $20
Gerami Fizz: Even 20
Moon Adamant: noel, my point here has been that some changes should be thought over - i tell you, i also don't like bumpy flying
Aliasi Stonebender: I *am* paying $50 a month.
Gerami Fizz: It took me 4 months to decide to go premium
Eloise Pasteur: Yes prok, I'm using me as an example knowing full well that I'm one case amongst many
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, you could do that web-side as well, Prokofy, but that's not the point. Almost all MMOGs have web shopping. Some don't even have in-world shopping at all. SL *was* different, because SL malls, popping up in strategic places, gave us back "impulse
Gwyneth Llewelyn: shopping like in RL.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I said *was*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: because I guess that malls will be different from now on : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Either they'll adapt to change, or fade into oblivion.

Following Prok's comments along the lines that not all telehubs and malls are horrid I went on a quick survey. I visited 20 telehubs scattered over the mainland just to record my impressions.

5% had malls that I actually quite liked.

5% (a different TH) had a shop that attracted my attention (but I didn't spend any money when push came to shove)

10% just had a linden hub and very little else in the whole sim (although one of these had a huge and really nasty mall away from it in one particular direction as I found out when I went back to sort something else out and actually flew away from it and got caught in said mall).

15% had people that stayed there longer than the 2-5 minutes it took me to rez and look around. About 65% had someone that tp'ed in and escaped rapidly. The highest number of people in any of the relevant sims was 8.

20% hit my personal "Ug, ugly place" feelings.

30% fit my personal "Ug, nasty trap place" feelings.

In 45% of them it took me over a minute to rez my (admitedly pretty primmy) hair. In non-hub sims it's unusual for it to take more than a few seconds if there's any delay at all.

Although there were no shops that I saw in every mall, there were also no shops I saw at just one from memory.

Quite a lot of these statistics are personal feelings, and of course at other times of the day some of the visitor numbers and proportion of sims with longer term stayers might have been different. None of this means that Prok's contention that some people find impulse buying at a tele-hub mall the best way to shop is wrong either, but it does make me wonder how big a factor it is.

If telehub shopping is not a big factor for casual shoppers (and never was), why did telehub malls pop up so quickly?

While it's true that people tend to copycat each other based on rumour and word-of-mouth, and I can certainly understand that Anshe's Nuba Telehub mall was a success — one of the most successful telehub malls — which made many people to try to emulate her, isn't there a reason for so many telehub malls?

There are telehubs without malls — the ones surrounded by protected land However, most of them do have malls of some sort. If nobody ever uses them, why did people pick those spots to set up malls? More important than that, even if admitting that mall owners were just copycatting each other, wouldn't the shop owners quickly find out that telehub malls are basically worthless?

A year ago, I did an experiment: I had a shop on a telehub mall (Nuba!) and a few others on other, non-telehub malls. Sales were 5 times as much on the telehub mall. Some of the other shops, even at low-rent spots, and even on spots with lots of attractions and events in beautifully-designed shopping districts, sometimes never made a sale for weeks. Things change pretty much in a year, so I don't know what the figures would be these days, but that experiment was quite interesting at that time. Of course, in my personal case, I found out that I sold much more at the e-Commerce sites and I dropped almost all my "shops". I still do have three vendors in-world. All are set quite far away from telehub malls. None have made a single sale in over three months.

I'm not usually a "casual shopper", so the truth is, I rarely stop at telehub malls myself — I try to avoid the "avatar traps" like the plague, and like most of the residents, I also try to fly away as quickly as possible, and as far up in the sky as I manage. Still, the question remains: if everybody behaves like I do, why did people set up shops on telehub malls? And how can I explain the incredible difference in sales by setting up a vendor on a telehub mall, when compared to a non-telehub one?

My survey was a single day snapshot - that's not the same as saying they never were a big factor. They might, on a different day or time still be a big factor too.



I have 3 in world vendors too, 1 right by a hub on an island, one a few hundred metres away and can't remember the third, but not that close. I tend to get sales from the ones further away from the hubs (although e-commerce does way better business). There is also, if you hunt around in the p2p threads, recent evidence from someone saying that they get more sales (by a significant margin) from their shops AWAY from the malls rather than those next to them. I don't have the patience to wade through all the threads to find it I'm afraid.

Who knows, maybe it depends on what you're offering (more expensive items are probably the domain of older avies in general say, plus larger houses etc...). Maybe it depends who your client base is (oldbies move away from hubs, newbies hunt closer maybe?). Maybe shopping habits have changed - one big change is the number of commerical island sims nowadays compared to a year ago for example. There are lots of things, including observer bias thanks to timing that could be affecting either my survey or showing a real change in the shopping habits in SL.

As an additional thought - one of the telling features would be looking at one (or more) mall(s) every week for a while and seeing what the turn over of shops is like. I'm sure not every shop owner is closely observing their shops, but a high turn over probably suggests that there's not much trade and people decide the trade isn't worth the rent. Not that it will matter, we'll have p2p before there's a big enough dataset to be worthwhile.