Call me Robin Hood.

You're wrong Sneaky.

Obviously, since you're involved with hacking sites, and carry a name like 'Sneaky', you're the hacker types who believes all software should be free. I wonder how many stolen apps you run on your stolen copies of Windows.

There's nothing wrong with selling scripts.

You only serve to help those who will take your code, and close off the source and sell it as if they wrote it.

I don't need you open sourcing stuff to get me to add functionality to my scripts.

I'm offended when you imply that my (and other's) scripts are crap.

Since you have the view that everything should be free, that explains why you don't have a premium account... That, plus you probably don't have a credit or debit card.


http://www.secondscripter.com/

Well you are right about the 'full perm' boom that is still happening. Boxed crap sold on the cheap. But there are still original artists inworld. I like to think I am one of them. And I went on a tear as of late and made a bunch of what I think are 'nice malls' to sell on the cheap. Because I for one am sick of seeing big square malls. So I have to agree on you with that one. But people sell things all over the place concerning cost. You can find things that are useless sold for a tonne, and the reverse as well. that may never change.

When it works that way, yes, it's great. The problem, however, is that as we're discovering in the real world, in the case of software sooner or later you run out of improvements that customers care about.

For example, you're right that a few years back, competition between Microsoft, Lotus, Smart etc. drove innovation in the field of "office" applications. But nowadays, Microsoft are running scared from OpenOffice. You would think MS could easily innovate and improve their suite. Well, they _can_ make improvements, but people don't care enough about them - certainly not enough to pay extra money for them. So entire organisations are stopping at Office 2003 or 2000, or switching over to OpenOffice, and MS are taking desperate measures.

Now of course this isn't likely to be a threat to MS. But when was the last time, that a new office suite was made?



Sure. And L$500+ for a simwide communication script is over the top. (Not quite as bad as the L$3000+ for a conglomerate rezzer I saw recently - although, accompanying it were some excellent builds to rez with it, that were _under_priced, so maybe it's a marketing strategy) But the problem is, where does it stop? What happens when the new features and stability are open-sourced, too?



Or, as it actually turns out, no commercial audio players at all, consumers split between three camps, and no driving force to keep those three innovating. That's the danger, I think.



Spending time learning is understandable but it isn't what I was referring to. What I was referring to was a problem specific to the multiple gadgets on the market now.. somebody has a neat idea for an addition to a script, tries to sell it, but finds they can't sell it because the multiple gadgets offer the same general function, without the neat idea, but plus many other functions and with the convenience of being a single item. The result is that in order to compete they have to put off developing their neat idea further until they've spent weeks - or months - re-inventing the wheel by scripting lots of other functions that they have no interest in but that are needed to compete with the multiples. That's not good for innovation. I don't really blame the multiple gadget makers for that situation - it's really a side effect of the horrid lack of modularity and extensibility in LSL..



I don't see it that way. For starters, you'd have to explain why those 18 had an "inability it improve", which is a fairly shaky concept to begin with. And secondly, it's been said many times by many creators that no amount of quality existing content could replace the freedom and exhiliration they get from being able to create and having those creations appreciated. So in terms of experience delivered, the 18/20 failures is a net loss.

Goodness, I seem to have upset the fine people of these forums. Well, let's start sorting through this mess...

Johan Laurasia - You make way too many offensive and incorrect assumptions about my character, simply because of my chosen interests. Just because I'm interested in the art and science of hacking and network security does not make me a bad person, nor does it make me a criminal.

I don't run a pirated copy of Windows, nor do I use any pirated software. I run Linux, and all of my software is free. I do have a windows partition on one of my computers (it's a genuine purchased copy, mind you) but it gets little use. Linux suits me well. And ALL of the commerical products I use have been fully paid for. Yes, even my copy of Adobe Photoshop CS2. I paid full-price for that, with hard-earned money. I support the hard work of good software designers, whether they choose to open-source their products or not.

I never said that newbies were bad, nor did I say that it was wrong to sell scripts. All I'm saying is that it's not a crime for me to open-source my own, even if doing so undercuts other people's businesses. If I don't want to charge for my creations, then I'm not going to charge for them.

Also, I never implied that the complexity of your scripts relied on the open-sourcing of mine, nor that your scripts (personally) were crap. I merely implied that the majority of Second Life builders and scripters are amateur, and that the majority of scripts are crap. Of COURSE they're not ALL crap! There are tons of fantastic things out there, I've seen them myself! But that doesn't change the fact that Master Craftsmen are FAR outnumbered by amateurs, and thus the market is flooded with amateur creations.

I'm also not attacking amateurs. What I'm hoping to do is give them guidance and open-source scripts from which to learn, so that they can become Master Craftsmen easier and quicker.

Haruki Watanabe - You're right, in a perfect world, Windows would be outta here. It's a sub-par OS, and it's overpriced beyond belief. But you want to know why it's still around? Because Microsoft made insane deals with numerous hardware companies early in the biz, so that everyone was stuck using their product, despite the fact that it was not the best product out there. And due to the fact that people are not apt to change, they'd rather stick with inferior shit than spend a couple days learning a new system, even if it's much much better. So the reason why Windows is still around is because all the people who use it are too bloody lazy to change, or because they don't realize they actually HAVE a choice, or because Microsoft's riches have allowed them to devise and implement a mass of advertising to convince the public that MS is the way to go.

Atom Burma - This is my point exactly. There are tons of assholes focusing on this whole 'business in a box' craze, building SHIT and boxing it up and tricking gullible noobs into buying it in the hopes of making money. The businesspeople that hawk this crap make money, and the noobs get screwed trying to sell crap in a market that's flooded with even more crap. The true artists of SL are few and far between. I believe that Open-Source is a great way to teach, to provide future Masters with a means to their goals.

Yumi Murakami -- Microsoft is paying for its crimes, the karmic way. Yeah, they used to own the Office market, but with Open-Source OpenOffice, things are changing. If MS had been reasonable and had included their Office suite with their OS (like most OSes do) then nobody would have any incentive to use OpenOffice, and Microsoft wouldn't be losing the market. As for profits there, they could sell additional feature packs above and beyond the basic suite, and make money that way (in addition to the killing they make in the OS market).

As for open-sourcing the sim-wide com script, I believe this is fine. It's a simple script. And if someone else wants to put in the work to make an even better one, I believe it is their CHOICE whether they open-source it or not.

However, I specifically said earlier that I wanted to open-source the SIMPLE scripts that people were CHEATING people over. Let's say someone has built a WORLD-WIDE chat script, one that works like the sim-wide, but in ALL sims. I would NOT open-source that one, because of the fact that it likely took significant effort and artistry on the part of its creator.

I am not here to undermine legitimate artists or businesses. I'm here to attempt to stop this unnecessary and cruel trend of taking advantage of new users. I care about newbies, and I don't want them to get screwed over right off the bat.

After all, screw a newbie over and you'll have made a buck, but the newbie could leave SL forever. Help a newbie grow and you might not make that buck, but the newbie could grow and thrive and reward you later with something great.

Look at it from the karmic point of view, see? Do good things and they'll come back to you. Do bad things, and they'll come back as well.

As for the Music Player argument, there ARE commercial music players that make good money for their merchants: iTunes is free to download but includes the iTunes store, bringing Apple tons of money. And WinAmp has a professional edition with added features, and it makes the company PLENTY of money. Of course, in the Linux market, the free players are the rage. But since most people use Windows, the media player market is still making money.

As per the problem with multi-tools, I agree with you. While the creators have every right to bundle together a huge set of tools, it's not good for competition. Any competitor would have to include all the tools PLUS their new tool. That's bad for business, and forces the new scripters to spend WAY too much time reinventing the wheel. Hence, open-sourcing the scripts! If the script is open-source, the user can include those open-source tools in their new creation, charging nothing for THOSE tools, but then add-in their own proprietary tool to the mix. The cost of the item could be explained as a "finder's fee" plus the cost of developing the new tool.

As for the 18/20 mark, you're right. 18 out of 20 failures IS net loss. And therefore, SL is losing. Look at our current situation: the vast majority of creators are amateur, and build sub-par stuff. We'll consider those "losses," as they don't really build up SL, but rather fill it with junk. Meanwhile, the minority of the SL creators that ARE masters at their trade are forced to multi-tool their shit to compete. Again, more loss. Of the massive numbers of creators, only a select few actually build anything new and worthwhile without having to suffer these losses. I'd say that's a pretty freaking HUGE net loss there.

But if we were to open-source the simpler scripts, the scripts that should be free (rather than being sold by profiteering assholes), newbies can learn from them for FREE. Yes, that means that some businesses will be undermined, but losing a few businesses that shouldn't be there in the first place is no great loss, and the fact that the masses of new users can learn and grow from the open-source scripts means that we'll have more people becoming masters of the craft, and we'll have more useful, masterful items, and we'll have more decent businesses instead of more shitfarms. The overall change in SL economy will be more of a gain than a loss. Yes, people will have to change, but I believe it will be for the better (and not for the worse).

Would you rather live in a SL populated by garbage that 20 out of 20 people can produce? Or would you rather the people grow stronger in their skills and replace that garbage with worthwhile creations?

I think too many of you that responded to me either misunderstood my original intentions, or let the "hacker" thing screw with your views of my intent.

Think about it, and tell me which is more selfish and cruel:

1. Open-sourcing your products, possibly undercutting a few businesses but allowing EVERYONE to benefit and learn from your work, therefore helping new users grow stronger in their talents and produce higher-quality products?

2. Keeping your creations closed-source and commercial, where you'll profit, but where practially NOBODY can directly see how they work or how to improve them, helping NOBODY become better at their trade, letting NOBODY build upon your work to further improve Second Life? You're still going to undercut a few businesses by selling your work, because it's pretty much necessary in any business.

The point of business is to get the customers to buy YOUR product instead of someone else's. Whether you open-source or not, you're still going to undercut SOMEBODY with your work. But by open-sourcing, you're giving back to the community, and helping others out, instead of merely profiting from your work in a purely self-centered way.

Neither option is evil. You have every right to sell your work. But I have every right as well to open-source mine, even if it does hurt your business.

Besides... Most people are still likely to buy your product rather than get my open-source version, because of the hard-wired mindset that "you get what you pay for."

Also, someone made a comment about my name "Sneaky" and being a hacker.

The choice of the name "Sneaky" was not to be untrustworthy or criminal. Sneaky is an alt, and the intent was originally that Sneaky would not attract much attention. I would use the Sneaky account to work and develop things in peace, undisturbed by the world. Hence, Sneaky. Nothing criminal or mischievous about it.

And as for the hacker side, I'm not a criminal hacker. I am passionate about the art of network and system security, and the art of hacking. It is a very intriguing profession and a very creative craft. I am not one of those evil black-hat malicious hackers you hear about on the news. If I ever found a vulnerability in your computer I'd be more likely to help you fix it than to exploit it.

People should think more before jumping to conclusions.

Judge not, lest ye be judged. Yeah?

This tends to go off topic?
(OMG who would have thought that so many words could carry so little meaning)


Says who?

As I stated earlier - you're definitely in the wrong place. Everyone here on the forum is more than happy to help the newbies (I was a noob myself not too long ago and the community always helped me with pleasure). There are TONS of free scripts to be found here, most of them well explained and made to build your own stuff upon.

The real problem is, that a newbie usually has no idea where to look for the good free stuff and thus most likely buys something overpriced and maybe not even well made. When they «grow up», they find the places where they can learn and get decent stuff. You can't change this by making things open source (as I said: they most likely ARE already). What you would have to do is go to the orientation islands and talk to the newbies, go to the sandboxes and help them there, hold classes and so on.

Well, that worked out great

OK, after everything else has been said and done, insults have been hurled, percieved insults have ben thrown etc, etc, etc, etc......................................................

No matter what else, Sneaky is doing a GOOD thing. Posting examples for others to learn from. Please post your scripts in multiple places, the Library here, since the forums are now open to all, because it is the most extensive database. The wiki library, I think you will find that the restrictions don't really apply and it will be a good library to build up etc etc, etc again.

When you are new to learning a scripting language the more resources the better. Wiki's that act as a dictionary for the various functions are indespensible but examples are the meat and potatoes. To be able to see the "flow" and even better to see how different people can get the same script and write it different ways

ALL contributions are sorely needed, none are going to hurt anyones source of income. Don't worry about hurting feelings and limiting yourself to "simple" scripts. More advanced scripts are needed also. Check my sig and look at my contributions to the wiki library, they are intermediate scripts but each has attracted attention and people have learned from them. They each show something different to learn from, like every possible way to manipulate lists and the way these manipulations work together to output the data.

A belated welcome to the forums Sneaky, whoever's alt you are! Please stick around, if this thread is any indication then you will definitely add to the mix the next time we have one of our infamous; "Most efficient way to do something" threads

I think you've identified an important problem there though. Just because the scripts are open source doesn't mean that they won't be sold. There's already a huge problem with freebie resale. An open-source multitool (for example) could easily be resold dishonestly, making it even harder for anyone with new features to stand out.



But as I said before.. the problem is that eventually you reach a limit. Microsoft, for all their evils, do have very strong skills - and yet somehow even they cannot make innovations to defeat OpenOffice. The problem is that the scope for innovation is running out, and the scope for worthwhile innovation is even smaller. On SL the real problem is that most of the significant problems scripts have are endemic to the platform. With one item I've made, for example, I put a lot of work into trying to improve the user interface beyond the "typed commands or blue box menus" that are standard on SL - but that turned out to have just as many problems as it solves, since HUDs with large numbers of prims also turn out to be unreliable.

If you look at weapon scripting, it's already getting to the point where scripters are having to use exploits in the platform in order to achieve any distinction in the market, and I wouldn't like to see that spread out to other fields.

Lastly, this does tend to put scripters at a disadvantage. I confess, having scripting skills feels a bit bad when there is so much effort put into giving newbies material to work for to improve their scripting, but when was the time you saw a repository of open source prim builds, or textures?

Hi Sneaky, I'm adding a special Sneaky section to the Dolphin Product store on Bishara Island. I pay homage there to everyone here who has released free for use scripts under various licenses, by inserting the scripts into working models with full perms on everything and free to everyone.

I found that as I learned here from almost every one of the scripters who wrote in this thread, I had the most amazing help and even code handed to me when I could not find a solution myself in my very n00b approach to lsl. The Dolphin Product store goes one step further and gives people willing to try their hand at lsl working models that they can then pull apart and test and change as they wish.

I might add that though these products are done under the conditions and frameworks of all the various licenses people here include in their scripts on the forums and wiki, I have been alerted time and again to residents who simply rip everything in the store, since its all free, and then copy it to their parcels where they slap prices on and resell what should remain free.

I have also found some residents who do the exact opposite and send me free scripts they did, even the smallest thing, that we then also place at the store.

I think reading your view on life that we could try and swing around the ratio so that the abusive types are less in the future and the true scripters receive proper praise and even financial gains from their hard work, by placing all your work there too in working examples.

I hope this is acceptable to yourself as I invite everyone here who wishes to check our store for authenticity regarding their rights as creators of the scripts and that we reflected their credits correctly, and you most certainly can do the same.

I think RMS has discovered SL.

hahahahahha, Sorry but he already knows about SL. There were some interesting discussions with him, various Lindens and some of the contributors about a month ago in the sldev mailing list.

For those not in the "know" RMS stands for Richard M. Stallman. Do a google search for his name.

May the Open Source be with you... always...

I think one thing you might overlook is that someone might create something simple, and sell it for a significant price, which includes support.

I mean, Linux is free, but the RedHat Enterprise Server distro costs a goodly chunk of money. Why? Because they are selling you a support plan. (Yes, I am aware that you can download it for free, too, but you're missing the point)

*shrug* Your basic cause is noble; to create simple solutions for simple problems and supply them to everyone for free. That's cool. I think where you are failing is making a federal case over something which doesn't really warrant it. All you are doing is offending folks with subjective pejoratives, probably the self-same people who have been here doing the exact same thing you are proposing, and have been while you weren't even around.

Anyway. Good luck, and hope to see your library efforts come to fruition, alongside all the other great free libraries of code out there.

Although I'm currently in an 'off-world' phase, earning money to feed my SL addiction (!), I wanted to add support to this thread. I share the OP's outrage at rubbishy and ripped-off products sold for stupid amounts of money. I dislike their vendors' grab-and-run attitude, which I can only assume comes from lack of experience in a real business environment. It makes me cross that newer users lose out this way; it tarnishes their first weeks in SL.

As some of you know, I've recycled many excellent scripts from here as 'free' products on SLX.... a bit out of date now, but still flying off the shelves. The more we share with the wider community, the more scripters-for-a-quick-buck will be forced to actually invent something of their own

Go for it, Robin!

Cherry

I beg to differ. I believe I'm in the RIGHT place. Because it's people like you, who strive to help others in whatever way they can, who will best understand and support this open-source ideal.

And I agree with you 100% -- We need more people willing to donate their time to teaching, mentoring, and sharing. Open-source can help, but it isn't the complete answer. We need active participation and open communication. We need people who are willing to share their time with others to help people out.

I do this every day. I spend a good lot of my time scripting and building, but I take time to visit sandboxes and universities to see if I can help anyone there.

I've got a good relationship with the owners of the Fermi Sandbox and Fermi University, and I'm planning a number of classes with them as well (time allowing). I do plan to teach and share! And I applaud anyone else who would do the same.



Hence why I said "originally." That intent died pretty quickly, haha. (It's hard to stay incognito when the whole Scripting forum is at your throat.)



This is true. I've even seen scripts that I wrote being stolen and sold. I've seen it happen. But that's no bloody reason not to Open-Source them! If you GPL License your script, and you can prove that the person is using YOUR script in their object, then you can file charges against them, fight them in SL and RL, and get justice.

Or, as I do, you can simply ignore it, knowing that morons will continue to sell open-source scripts, but knowing that you're still sharing the open-source one freely, where everyone can use it. Sooner or later that moron's going to have to improve upon the script, or his business will die from propagation of the Open-Source script. (I've seen it happen, when an idiot tried to sell slightly modified FreeView screens.)



THANK YOU!!! You're officially my favorite person in this thread. You got the bloody point. Thank you for your kindness and for welcoming me to the community.



That's the beauty of the Open-Source Sharing Group (OSSG)! We're not just about scripts. I specifically promote the sharing of open CONTENT, meaning textures and clothing and builds and EVERYTHING! Any kind of content you can create. So now we have the group ready for ALL content that anyone chooses to open-source. Already we've had people sharing builds (houses and such) to scripts (all kinds), it's only a matter of time before clothes, textures, and everything else gets added.



Join the OSSG! Anything you find there should be perfectly fine to set up for sharing at your Dolphin Product store, so long as you keep it all FREE and Open-Source!



It's about time!



I understand that, with such a wide-range attack on shoddy scripting and defrauding newbies, there might be a few decent people caught up in the mix. But keep in mind that, if I see something I believe is unjustifiably expensive, I'll take the time to investigate it before I make an open-source version. I'm not as terrible as I might have sounded in my original rant.

And... The things I will write and open-source are basic, easy-to-understand versions of popular tools. They include many good features and are fully capable of fulfilling their intended purpose. But I will not stoop so low as to open-source someone's selling-point feature... If you've written a basic, every day vendor script, then the Open-Source vendor I created will probably match, if not beat, yours (quality-wise). But it's only a basic vendor script. If you've created a networked or commission vendor, then you've added special functionality to your system that makes it worth selling on the market. I'm not going to stoop so low as to design the TOP-OF-THE-LINE system and then open-source it... While it would be nice for newbies, it would be terribly rude to those of you who have actually put hard work into your creations.



Thank you.

I'd like to make one final note in this overly-long post (sorry, I do this too often).

I will admit, my OP was very heated, very aggressive, and very emotionally charged. It was born entirely out of anger and outrage for how so-called businesspeople were taking advantage of newbies who didn't know any better.

And while I still have that outrage, my focus has shifted slightly. I'm not so concerned with open-sourcing to BRING DOWN THE SELFISH PIGS, but rather to help those who need it, and to teach, and to share. I know that nothing will ever fully eliminate cheap second-hand crap (after all, China's economy depends on it), so I'm not going to fight that battle. But if I can share some open-source content and improve the lives (and futures) of various newbies, then the returns will be much greater for it.

Call it karma, if you'd like.