Particles in an Elliptical Pattern

wow, one little post, and all this controvesy, realy folks, it's ok, difference in view point, nothing major, I would like to take a second to answer/disagree with talarus (who's work I've long admired)


we things differently, I expect people are looking to see my line of thinking in complex cases, you are expecting people to use a solution as is, regardless of understanding it. both are ok, and it helps to inform users of caveats, in this case the caveat was I wrote it w/o checking it... the errors weren't horrible, and frankly it was the idea I was presenting, not the solution.

I'm no genius, by any means, and I do sometimes assume peole can get more of an idea from the code than just command, variable, event... in this case the idea I was conveying was to move the emitter as it rotates, to elongate a circular path.


I try not to be in the busniess of providing solutions on the tips forum, unless it's a minor/small thing (my discretion), I'm not being payed, but I do like to help people along learning. examples that I offer in tips almost always say whether they are solutions, or directions to explore... as with my warning attached. (it also helps if SL is actually LETTING ME IN grrr) cut-n-paste is a good way to start, but tips isn't the best place to go for non-trival things of that nature, MHO


not as smart as me? but but I'm just a blithering idiot with a good vocabulary, and shortcuts to the wikis.... no seriously, point taken, which is kinda why I encourage people to learn with snippets or ideas... sometimes I aim too high and have to backtrack... maybe this was one of those times.... but I'll bet someone saw right off what I was attempting and could put it to use, despite my quick cut-n-paste code job

Now Wiki entries, Library Entries, or anything that's put out there as a finished product for use... I agree, damn well better work, that's the expectation for those venues/postings. I NEVER post to those anything I haven't personally stripped from an inworld functioning object, and I try to comment the hell out of it before that.

perhaps the base difference between our styles is how we view the forum, I see it as an exchange of ideas, occasionally sprinkled with code, you I believe, see it as an exchange of code, sprinkled with ideas. that and I think you are oversimplifing with quality vs quantity, since there are 2 products here, not one... Code & Concepts... I strive for high levels of both in the latter, and in the former too, although it sometimes slips, as above =)

I also tend to prioritize comments to posts with no responses, and ones where someone presents one view as the only option, if I can see another... adds contrast =)

oh yeah and I have a horrible memory so I have a post now ethic, else I'll forget the next day, as it falls off the page. if I tried to test every snippet I posted I'd never do anything but test solutions for others... not my idea of fun, but if I get the idea out there, even if I flub the exact code occassionally, at least its available to think about, and allows me to spread ideas faster than the alternative. if the OP doesn't catch the mistake, someone else usualy will

In all forums, I never, ever forget Rule #1: Everything said and done in the forums stays in the forums. Real life is not to be affected by ANYthing that happens within. Nothing is offered or taken personally. I'm just as liable to buy my best forum buddy a drink in RL as my worst forum adversary.

I've a quote that probably fits: "I don't just have bad days; I invented them."

My posts aren't much of a reflection of my day so much as I tend to be a reluctant master of blunt force trauma to issues. Sometimes that creates issues in and of itself, though.



No, not really. Code is nothing more than a rendering of a concept. In a help forum, I hope someone takes the time to look at the code snippets, examples, AND the conceptual discussion, and can get the most out of it. I just think that effort spent in giving the best answer one can reduces the conceptual recognition time. Most of the time, most code snippets given are far from a total solution to their needs. Anything bigger or more complex than a certain mark really is becoming a freebie for someone, and I try to avoid doing that.

Many people who come in for help are really just learning; they don't know what many things are yet, and have to look up a lot of stuff. Let's say I belch out a block of code with a little bit of description and say "try that; it probably has tons of errors, but you'll get the idea". Initially, I would expect to get looks of bewilderment from beginners. They try throwing it at the compiler and it barfs even worse gobbledigook on them. OK, well, maybe they did something wrong, but how do they know? So, the more adventurous who haven't lost courage enough to wait for a second opinion will start trying to look up stuff in the reference to figure out what is wrong. Some things they can't find for whatever reason. Maybe they typed it in wrong; maybe they will manually search the index for something which looks like what was given. Maybe there are multiple possibilities for what it could be. The ones who survive the reference encounter will correct the errors the best they can and keep throwing it at the compiler until it stops barfing on them and they get that magical "Compile successful" message. Great! Now they can actually see it run. Well, not really; what has become syntactically correct is now logically incorrect. More wrestling with the reference and debug code ensues, assuming they have learned the fine art of debugging code. By this time, though, you've probably exhausted the vast majority of folks' knowledge, capability, attention span, and/or frustration level and, even though you disclaimed yourself out of responsibility for it, they can't help but feel they were wasting their time.

Now, let's say I spend the extra 2-3 minutes cleaning it up and posting a workable solution. Any initial bewilderment is fleeting. They throw it at the compiler and.. it compiles! Woohoo! Halfway there. They run it through its paces. Cool! It does what it is billed to do. Ace! OK. But now they want it to not just clean the kitchen, but also make coffee and walk the dog, because that is the real scope of their application. Gotta figure out what this thing is doing, so they look up the elements in the refernce. They find them easily, read them through, and then start tinkering. They come back and ask questions if need be.

Now I won't deny that debugging someone else's utter crap can be educational in the extreme; Draco knows I have done more than my fair share of maintenance programming in the last 30 years. I just tend to find it more of an upbeat learning experience to start out with something simple and functional that works, learn from it, and then figure out how to expand on it.



Oh, absolutely. I avoid giving out full solutions to anything. Most things I offer are very simplistic, especially because I want to keep from stripping the gears in the learner's mind. I do understand about the issues of not being able to get online and check. All I would ask is to be mindful of the impact of what you provide will have on the learner. Even with a disclaimer, you can turn what should be a positive learning experience into a very unhappy one. If you /can/ test it beforehand, why not spend the extra minute to rez a prim and do so? I guess what I was concerned about here is that it was kinda like the first scenario I described above; even with a disclaimer, it looked like a "here ya go, try this!" situation.



No, I think we see it the same way. Like I said above, code is simply the rendering of concepts. Ultimately, the point is to help the learner see and understand the concepts. Code examples help; so does technical narrative. You can do one, or the other, or both, or do something completely different. As long as it helps the learner learn with the least amount of discouragement and frustration, it doesn't really matter. The quality vs quantity argument was mainly towards the incorrect notion that helping everyone as fast as possible is better than helping anyone as best as possible. As one of my math professors once said "Speedy answers are not generally the correct ones; if you come to a solution quickly, then you have extra time to proof it". Funnily enough, the students who turned in their tests the fastest were statistically the ones with the worst grades. Ultimately, all help IS help, but better help gives better results and makes people feel more confident in their ability to understand and solve problems for themselves.



Meh. I haven't done anything of any consequence, really. Definitely nothing worthy of admiration. I do appreciate the sentiment, but it is better directed towards people who have made real contributions.

In over 1.5 years, I still haven't even put up my store yet.

Well done, Void. Revised version works nicely and provides a good platform from which to springboard off of and create some new & interesting particle effects.

Many thanks

but at the very least they'll learn to read disclaimers!

YW Debbie =)

I would rather someone post an *idea* for a solution, that hadn't been compiled & tested, than to skip it because it's not practical at the time to test it. As long as they're clear about it.

Debbie, I agree with what you said about professional software engineering, and as a software developer and manager for 30 years I have plenty of experience with the kind of things you're talking about.

However, I differentiate between "submitting proposals" and "brainstorming". When we're in a meeting, discussing a problem, and someone proposes an idea for a solution on the whiteboard, I'm not going to criticize it for not compiling, or even if it completely doesn't work. It's an idea to consider. I would rather encourage smart people to offer ideas to consider than to stifle them.

AFTER an idea has been proposed, the work of thinking through the consequences begins.

I want to encourage people to post "whiteboard ideas" in this forum -- as long as they make it clear that they are. I also want to encourage people to test their ideas and present quality code. I do not want to discourage someone from posting an idea just because it's not tested.

It's all good. It is not "lazy" to post an idea. It's helpful, and it is not up to ME to decide how someone else should spend their time. Yes, it's better to test ideas -- but sometimes, a test might fail even if the idea was good, so that isn't even always "best".

hehehhe...yes, indeed Void. But I can't help wondering if I am the only one who has a lesson to learn

Hi Lear ~ I have no disagreement with any of that; all makes sense. And, yes, there is a very significant differentiation to be made between an idea/brainstorm/tip/pseudo-code/whiteboard/checklist etc and implementable code. And, because of that, different formats exist to present these different stages of the development lifecycle. Generally, however, I would suggest that if it looks like compilable code, is presented as compilable code, is referred to as if it is compilable code then the receiver of that code would have a reasonable expectation that the code will, in fact, compile.

But this is SL, not a RL Software House, and as I hope I made clear earlier, I too have no wish to attempt to impose any of these standards on anyone (outside of a professional, commercial environment), even if I thought such a thing was practical, which ofc it obviously is not.

Nevertheless, personally I feel most comfortable if the code I post to a forum has been compiled and tested, and am likely to continue to do that. I would like to think that when something is offered an idea, then it would be quite clear at a glance that this is so. Again, if I use pseudo-code, or any other of the numerous and perfectly legitimate ways of conveying possible solutions, then these too are easily differentiated from compilable code.

In short, I would like to think that if I offer something in a format that looks like compilable code, is presented as compilable code and is referred to as if it is compilable code then the end-user will, in fact, find themselves with compilable code

There's a difference in posting something that is obviously nothing more than an idea for a solution (pseudocode, snippets, etc) and posting something that looks like a solution (an entire script, with variable declarations, UDFs, state(s), and event(s), with what looks to be proper syntax).



Absolutely. But if self-same person goes to his computer, bangs out something that looks like a solution and circulates it as an example proof-of-concept for that brainstorming session, and it doesn't compile, I would think he/she would be wasting his colleagues' time. Help forums aren't quite like what you describe, because there is no time limitation, as there are in meetings, and people CAN actually post working code as a response to a question.

I surely don't want to stifle anyone. That's not anywhere near what I have been talking about. Post all the pseudocode and snippets you want to brainstorm a response to a question. If you post something that looks like it is meant to be a usable solution, even with a disclaimer, it is *better* if it has at least been seen by the compiler.

I guess I have trouble understanding why the concept is so foreign to people. It's not like it is all that hard; no one is asking for a full software development process to answer a question. Just throw the code at a syntax checker (by the way, you can do so offline with lsllint or some of the other tools Jesse is collecting info for here in the forums). Look at it one more time before you post it. If you're logged in when you answer the question, drop it in a prim and watch what happens.

As an example...

In this thread, I threw out a couple of full code blocks, 5 and 6 lines, respectively. When I first banged them out, I erroneously swapped the llGiveInventory parameters. I've typed that statement hundreds of times, but I had a brain fart and put the notecard name first. Following my own rules, I rezzed a prim, cut/pasted the code, and touched it. Lo and behold, I get an error message "Unable to find object: <my key>". Initially, I knew I didn't put a notecard in there, so I expected an error, but I immediately recognized the fact that I didn't intend to give myself to myself, so something was amiss. I did my "doh!", swapped the parameters, saved/touched, and got the correct error message. I then cut/pasted the fixed code back into the forum post and submitted it.

Now, if I HAD NOT done that, I would have someone probably sitting there scratching his head why his notecard wasn't being given, and this weird key error message was coming up instead. Of course, the script is far from the most complex one in the world, even for a newbie, and it could be easily resolved, once the error was discovered. The difference is that someone who was given an example solution now has to do the debugging work I should have done (and could have done in under a minute), in addition to trying to understand and get their own application to work. As an "expert", what would have taken me less than a minute to resolve now just wasted 5, 10, 15 minutes or more of someone else's life.

Maybe it is "developer empathy", but I feel their pain. :-/

Nice solution for an eliptical path!

And as to the "tested" vs. "off the cuff" code snippets in the forums... most of my forum script is clearly marked with "never compiled & may contain errors" because I post from work during hours I can't access SL.

Besides, if things are too easy... often times people will just cut'n'paste instead of bothering to learn anything.

I'd argue time constraints, because my time constraints aren't set by the board, but by RL, now I'll admit that if I've got the spare time, and sl is loaded (or I've the time to wait around for it to load, or I'm not stuck w/ a friend in a no-script area) I do tend to run it through once...

as for pseudo -code, it's great, assuming it's readable to the learner... but I find it worse sometimes for the same reasons mentioned above, that you can't look up nonexsistant functions, constants, etc... so I strive for live code (ok some of my variable names end up looking like number-you-want-to-change )

I figure a disclaimer(generally IN the post, the sig is humor/help, & not everyone sees them) is obvious enough to say it's just an idea, that if you A) can't debug code, or B) can't understand the idea behind it, that should tell you not to make too much fuss if it doesn't work... most people just post back "hey that doesn't work, I get error "suchnsuch"... maybe they'll try to debug it, and learn something about debugging(like it mostly sucks, & syntax is the easy part). maybe they'll get the idea behind it and try it their own way... heck it may end up better, maybe they'll ignore all my posts (sad making, but out of my control). and maybe they'll beat their brains out trying to make it work, when they don't have the all the tools... but I don't believe it's my job to police others masochistic tendencies (mine are bad enough, after all I read this this forum don't I? =)

Well all I know is no changes for me. No disclaimers and no warnings. I'll keep answering questions and posting code as I always have. The greatest code-smith the forums ever had was Newgate Ludd. He was fluent in several scripting languages, never tested his code and signed into SL rarely. He rarely made mistakes but he did make them. But he also always made it right at the end. More importantly, he helped introduced the LSL scripting language to a large amount of people, including me.

In over a year hear I don't ever recall anyone complaining about this problem. I have seen many new people here learning and some have started to answer questions also. Mistakes, no mistakes, people still walk aways from the thread knowing more then before they asked thier questions.

Unless someone has a statement in thier signature stating that they are perfect and never make mistakes then no one expects it.

Ah well, never mind then.

To each his(her) own...

I guess it is just because of the difference in backgrounds. Me personally, I had zero, zilch, nada, no background in coding before coming here. Jopsy made a valid point about people copying and pasting. There are a plethora of free example scripts out there. They helped just a tiny bit and notations in some scripts helped some. But nothing really gets it to sink in like a mistake and then seeing why it is a mistake.

The other thing that helped a great deal is reading all of the different points of view in a thread. When I was new here I absolutely loved the long discourse and sometimes arguments on the best way to do things. As I remember it, the threads concerning optimizing scripts were actually much more harsh then this, with people calling each other idiots basically. As I learned more I found I would go back to some of those threads and reread them. It was wonderful to see how my understanding had grown and I could begin to understand parts I couldn't before. The day I could understand one of Strife's scripts was a very proud one indeed Still can't understand all of em though

A thread like this one would be a good example:

/54/f6/222472/1.html

Funny, but you could kind of see a mental picture of the lightbulb turning on over his head a couple of times. It wouldn't have mattered if there would have been a typo in my script and it wouldn't compile. It was the discourse, not a flawless script, that finally got the idea to sink in.

The same can be said for the thread we are presently in. I do apologise for coming off so harsh but people are going to read this thread. People are going to see the different POV's and hopefully take something good from it, from either side.

I guess I am also kind of touchy about it because I don't have any letters following my name and can't say I have some job in the IT field. Some people do use that as if that gives them more authority on a subject. (ugh I came back to edit this to say this is not meant as a personal jab to anyone) But I do know I can code as well as most now and better then quite a few. It was always a fear of mine that someday someone would make a suggestion like having only certain people answer threads here.(nothing to do with the subject we are talking about). There are actually some forums like that. The forum for SpyBot SD would be one example of that extreme. Don't really think that would happen but just imagine if someone said they were worried that new coders could possibly not learn the most efficient way of creating a script from another new person?

But where is the line drawn thou? To me, the line is letting people try to help anyway they can.

People are going to copy/paste scripts no matter what. Those who are only going to do that and not bother to learn are going to wait until someone gives them what they want and they will go away until they need something else. Incorporating mistakes (especially intentional ones) does tend to "poison the well". If you are worried about someone just taking advantage of your help here, then you're gonna end up as a nervous wreck because guess what? That's the whole point. Someone needs help and you're here to help them as much as you want. I am a big proponent of the notion that you learn FAR more by failing than you do by succeeding; I probably am the poster dragon for it. However, people who are learning will have more than ample opportunity to learn through failure on their own. Answering one question with buggy code isn't going to have a significant impact on them from that angle.



It wasn't intended to be harsh. It was intended to be a simple observation. I surely didn't want it to turn into a slam-fest. However, I have been around the block a few times; I can handle myself well enough if it did.



Yeah, I get tired of reading "Well I am a PhD with over 150 man-years of experience behind me" as if that really makes a lot of difference. Even the second best programmer in the universe next to the Almighty Himself makes a mistake at least once. If someone tosses that out as some kind of defense for their viewpoint, fine, I guess I can play along and throw out mine, too. Ultimately, though, if a point can't stand on its own merits without the backup of Mr. Diploma and Mr. Experience, then it isn't a very good point, is it?



What, you mean like the SL Developer Certification crap? There's one for you that is ripe for that kind of abuse. No, if the forum turns into "only Certified people can post", then it's time to go to another forum, or make one without that silliness.



I wasn't aware anyone intended to draw lines. There was no "right" or "wrong" posted in this discussion, not by me, anyway. It was simply a relative observation. It would be better (yes, I used "most helpful" originally; I tend to write in absolute terms in opinions at times) if code were tested before posting. I never said that solutions should never be posted unless tested first. I simply said it would be BETTER. I also did say that untested solutions don't help. OK, I'll concede that was mis-worded, as they can help, but tested solutions are BETTER at helping.

I'd say that the vast majority of the responses in this thread were posturing over posting style more than anything, as I can't believe anyone would argue that tested code is not BETTER than untested code. If you CAN do it, and it doesn't have any significant impact to posting, why not do it?

I think we all do, or at least try, just to differeng degrees in the definition of "significant impact" =)

we all give what we can, it's not always perfect, but I'd like to think it helps. I have found that quick but slightly errored posts (not just my own) at least give the feeling someone is paying attention... nothing worse than watching a post slip off the page with 0 replies... it's disheartening

Yep, true. And certainly this is a very attentive and helpful forum. Friendly too.





There is nothing to be gained from any exclusivity here, imo. It is the openess of this forum that makes it so attractive.



Yes, I think so too.

Ultimately SL, for me and I assuming many others, is a leisure activity. Reading and posting to forum is an extension of that, with a sharing of learning and ideas. Posting to a "technical" forum such as this implies both a willingness to share one's own knowledge and an openness to learn from others'. Nowhere in this does it imply "right" or "wrong", and most of all, nowhere does it imply dictating to others how they should or should not do something.




The OP!

Void has provided an admirable solution to this. I have worked with this code extensively over the weekend, using it as a springboard or template, rather than a simple copy/paste exercise. From it has sprung a number of most interesting and effective particle effects. Nevertheless, even though I have made quite a number of changes to it (to suit my needs, not because the code itself required it, she hastenly edits!), the Hand of Void is clearly within it !

Although the above disussion has been interesting, I fear that the thing of most value within the thread may have become buried & this would be a shame, imo. Is it a candidate for 'Scripting Library'? Your call Void, obviously, but its a really good solution to something that had perplexed me for sometime now, and perhaps others too

Do you have any idea how insulting this sounds? I have tried to be diplomatic and not make any enemies and yet you said at one point I was being "sophomoric". In that case my reply was pointing to Void's prolific and excellent record not pointing a finger at anyone else. I said I wasn't attacking you and yet you came back again that I was. You have stated that I could post "crap" if I wanted to. You made a comment that I if I tried I should be able to find more time in my personal life to log in to SL to test code. And yet when I think it is finally dying down you come back with what a female feels is a sexist remark like "your gonna end up as a nervous wreck" and that evidently I am just posturing.

So just so we are clear and there is no posturing. Go fuck yourself and stop telling people how they should help others in the forum. 1-1/2 years here with a spotless record and I have never, ever been in a situation like this. So yes someone go ahead and AR me now and go ahead and lock this thread.

sure why not, I'll send it there in a minute =)

for future refrence, if I post it, it's open, feel free to c&p to library if you think it's worth it... credit is nice, but I really don't worry about it =)


@Style debate:
most people won't change their mind immedietely on any debate, we present our views, others theirs, and hopefully people take something useful from it. I think we've all pretty much made our stand clear, and given each other things to consider. lets just let it mull for a bit and see what comes hmm?

I apologize to the community for my earlier outburst which I deleted. But want to make clear that I have found myself highly insulted by this thread. Anyone posting comments contrary to one persons opinion was met with comments like these:



Up until this point, this has been the most generous, helpful group of unselfish people I have ever been apart of. I am hoping that everyone will read carefully and a repeat of this thread never occurs again.

I don't see any point in responding further to what has clearly become a personal vendetta, given that the out-of-context quotes given referred to no one involved in the discussion, save one which was a response to what I perceived as an attack.