Second Life Forums Archive - SL Certification

Newgate Ludd

Out of Chesse Error

Join date: 8 Apr 2005

Posts: 2,103

04-28-2007 12:18

From: Malachi Petunia

They are looking to farm players of manifest competence to their corporate customers is my guess.

Wouldn't you want LL to be your employment agent? Or maybe they'll just try to bring you on as a contractor and pay you in L$. Or, given their historic business model, they'll ask you to create corporate content because you love working for others for free.

This "certification" is too asinine to lack ulterior motive.

Well I doubt that will come to pass as I'm a non US citizen although I do currently hold the correct visa's (just in case anyone is looking

)

I'm more than happy to work for them, in US$ or even L$ although 50,000/hr may seem a little steep.

As for making corporate content that sure as hell aint going to happen.

All jokes aside, I totally agree with your sumation as to the probable motivation behind this need for certification and standards.

Kenn Nilsson

AeonVox

Join date: 24 May 2005

Posts: 897

04-28-2007 23:56

From: Carlisse Midnight

(at least $30 US / hour, let's say, at the low end of real world consultants)

I wouldn't dream of charging less than US$60/hr in the real-world and generally set my minimum at US$100/hr. I know others who charge US$250/hr.

But yea...when I quote prices like that to people in SL, only those who truly understand hard work and quality--and who look to find themselves a big return on the product--are willing to pay. So...mostly...we just make little gadgets that you can sell hundreds of and therefore market at US$1.

_____________________

--AeonVox--

Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms chasing ghosts, eating magic pills, and listening to repetitive, addictive, electronic music.

Senuka Harbinger

A-Life, one bit at a time

Join date: 24 Oct 2005

Posts: 491

04-29-2007 01:40

The "Merit Badge" idea that was suggested has really struck a chord with me. My own personal focus in scripting has been with fuzzy logic systems and AI. I'd like to consider myself very advanced in creating LSL based intelligences that make decisions, but many of the much more common areas of scripting (PHP/HTML calls, persistant in world storage, vehicles, weapons, etc.) I'm sitting at a basic knowledege level, and I can make scripts that function as asked, but I'm in the dark as to wether I've gone about such scripts in the most efficient ways.

A merit badge system as proposed would allow me to learn techniques in areas that I feel like I'm lacking, perhaps even going forth as to show other people that I know "good" practices when executing those kinds of scripts.

A general certification program will only show that I can make a script do something intended, and most likely not be a good predictor of which particular aspect of scripting is my strong point, nor the quality of workmanship that I express over the wide range of projects that I may or may not be asked to work on.

_____________________

My SLExchange shop

Typos are forgiven; desecrating the english language with reckless abandon and necrophilic acts is not.

The function is working perfectly fine. It's just not working the way you wanted it to work.

Kenn Nilsson

AeonVox

Join date: 24 May 2005

Posts: 897

04-30-2007 09:42

I wanna hear what Heretic Linden might think about the merit-system.

It's got the idea of certification...in a correctly flexible manner that fits SL...

_____________________

--AeonVox--

Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms chasing ghosts, eating magic pills, and listening to repetitive, addictive, electronic music.

Peekay Semyorka

Registered User

Join date: 18 Nov 2006

Posts: 337

04-30-2007 13:21

I'm trying to understand the merit-badge system; we seem to be proposing:

1. Let anyone create schools (great idea.)

2. Let each school create their own courses and exams. In essence, let each school create their own private set of certifications.

3. Let some schools (and their certifications) be "blessed" by Linden through an accreditation system.

4. To be blessed by Linden, schools must teach Linden-approved topics, "and have their course scope and testing evaluated periodically to ensure that the accreditation was still justified." (to quote Winter). This idea seems to be in conflict with point #2 above.

5. Some private certifications are therefore "recognized" by Linden, but others are not.

6. There should be 32x32 icons to show which private certifications an avatar has obtained. Should this only be Linden "recognized" certifications (given by Linden approved schools) or not?

7. Certification is a big overloaded word, so let's call it "merit-badge" instead.

If I'm understanding these ideas correctly as a whole, then I'm not sure having a multitude of accredited vs. non-accredited private certifications (merit-badges), offered by different schools, is any better than having a unified Linden certification system.

My only real takeaway is point #7 above. There seems to be a negative image of the word "certification" in the SL community, even though certifications and merit-badges are really the exact same thing when you think about it.

So, what if Linden continues to develop a certification process to be administered by third-party exam providers (as originally proposed), but simply call it a "merit-badge" system instead of a certification system? I.e., make it sound "kinder & gentler"?

---

Personally, I think the idea of numerous accredited vs non-accredited schools would be too confusing for everyone.

I think everyone would agree that Linden should identify "core areas" that we as scripters and builders should know about, and document each of them thoroughly. Call this our scripting & building "Book of Knowledge" (BOK); our Bible if you will.

Then anyone (including the Lindens) can create study materials (eg., tutorials, classes) covering BOK contents.

Then Linden may optionally choose to create a set of exams to test different areas of the BOK at different competency levels (basic, advanced, etc.) Any school is free to teach classes to pass those exams, guided by the BOK and the exam objectives. The exams are to be administered by third-parties.

Whether the result of those exams are to be called "certifications" or "merit-badges" is to-be-determined.

-peekay

Kenn Nilsson

AeonVox

Join date: 24 May 2005

Posts: 897

04-30-2007 17:14

I'm not Winter...so I don't know the full intent of her suggested system, but you're generally on par with what I understand it to be in your #1 - #7 assumptions...though I don't see at all how #4 is contrary to #2...

I believe that the 'accreditation' of schools would be a result of a school becoming both popular and successful, and then reviewed by Linden Labs as fulfilling education that is both accurate and important. This concept would be radically different from a set, single, certification done by Linden Labs. It would rather open the door for many schools to cover many areas and for the community to line up behind the best...and THEN for Linden Labs to come in and confirm "yea, these people are pretty good" and grant them land for their school in order to help support quality educational institutions and encourage instructors who lose boatloads of potential linden by taking the time out to help others.

The concept is more along the lines of supporting education rather than creating a single approved process.

And sure...there will be some confusion as to which school is good and which school is bad--at least at the beginning. But that's the way things have ALWAYS been. Which college is better, The University of New Hampshire or the University of Connecticut? Is Boston University better than Boston College? UCLA vs. UC San Diego? And yet, if a lawyer graduates from Harvard...everyone says "that's our guy".

SecondLife schools would develop in much the same way...instead of going to the University of Miami 'cause you wanna play Pro Football, you'll be going to the University of Vehicle Scripting to learn how to make car scripts...and some of those universities will be of the caliber of community colleges...others will be of a higher caliber...and some will even be of a lower caliber. Point is...it'll all sort out..good ones rise to the top, bad ones fall to the bottom...and Linden Labs goes to the top ones and makes sure they hit the right fundamentals...maybe makes a suggestion or two...and LEAVES THE CURRICULUM GENERALLY ALONE...and adds their accreditation or not.

Badges...call 'em whatever you want..."Honors", "Merit-Badges", EVEN "Certificates". The point relies more on the system than the name.

And hey...qualifications replacing an "Interests" tab that is widely useless sounds great to me.

_____________________

--AeonVox--

Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms chasing ghosts, eating magic pills, and listening to repetitive, addictive, electronic music.

Iridium Linden

Wikkid Linden

Join date: 12 Mar 2007

Posts: 262

05-17-2007 01:50

Your feedback is greatly appreciated. As I noted earlier, this system is in the earliest stages of development. We are open to all of your ideas. Feel free to continue posting here, to the talk section of the SL Certification wiki at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SL_Certification or drop me a note card in-world. Thanks for all of your comments!

Da5id Zsigmond

Registered User

Join date: 26 Jan 2007

Posts: 34

Focus on the quality work and celebrate it.

05-20-2007 08:23

I agree with the view that the certification idea is a little dubious in this situation.
What do you put down on a test - what SL does in theory or in practice???
What's the difference between theory and practice?
In theory they're the same.
Maybe you get a point for certification for each bug or non-functional scripting feature you identify.
But seriously folks,
I've seen some really nice building and scripting work that people have done in SL and would like to find more but there's a lot going on and I usually only have barely enough time to work on my own projects. So why not go for a regular awards or competition idea.
There could be an entrance fee and if you think you can compete - you enter.
There could be categories not just for scripting but building - clothes - etc..
You can address both the functional aspects of the process - loose points if you use code that's really inefficient and laggy or that uses 10 prims to do what 5 would do, and you can address the artistic side as well.
Also, while there tons of personal projects I'll bet that there are a lot of larger projects that are the result of teams with different specialists.

So - I think we need the Linden Awards.

In general I think Linden could look at the whole issue of ranking from the point of view of giving a little stroking to those that are really involved in SL and making it happen. To all of you who have posted the scripts I've used and leaned from THANX. To all of you that have taken the time to help me out with a scipting issue on the Forum - ThankYou, ThankYou. To all of you contributing to the WIKI - basically writing Lindens documentation for them - often experimenting for hours to find out how something actually works. Thank You. If Linden is smart as a company it will realize that the best bang for the buck is to really feed this community aspect with at least some acknowledgement - though some Lindens would be nice too since the tier on my island is coming up again.

RJ Source

Green Sky Labs

Join date: 10 Jan 2007

Posts: 272

06-14-2007 07:14

Looks like this continues to be fleshed out:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Scripting_Certification

Also:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Modeling_Certification
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ModelingSkills

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SL_Certification notes a target date of fall 2007.

Ace Albion

Registered User

Join date: 21 Oct 2005

Posts: 866

06-15-2007 04:39

Someone is going to explain to me now why a furniture builder needs to know anything about weapon building or vice versa for modeling certification.

_____________________

Ace's Spaces! at Deco (147, 148, 24)
ace.5pointstudio.com

WarKirby Magojiro

Registered User

Join date: 24 Oct 2006

Posts: 49

06-15-2007 06:40

The scripting aspect of that seems to be operating on a tiered system
--------------------------------------------------------------
Advanced Particle Systems

Topics:

* ?

[edit] Applied Quaternion Mathematics

Topics:

* Positional and Rotation Object Animation
Agent Interaction/UI

Topics:

* Chat Interfaces
* Touch based UI
* Dialog UI
* Notecard Config

Database Scripting

Requires: Data Management
Topics:
-------------------------------------
I can do all of these. Data mangement is my specialty. And I've just finished building interpolated animated transforming hair. That took a lot of math.

But...

------------------------------------
Vehicles

Requires: Physical and Non-Physical Movement
Topics:
-----------------------------------

I'm not so certain about vehicles. or
-----------------------
Land based Audio & Video
Physical and Non-Physical Movement

Topics:

* Physics
o Methods
o Events
-------------------------
I know very little about the physics system. I'm still trying to understand energy. Does this specialisation prevent me from being "advanced"? I don't even meet half the requirements for "intermediate", but most people refer to me as an expert. I have specialties, as do many other people.

A program of certification, I feel, will just encourage a mentality of "gotta catch em all", emphasising adequate competence in many areas, over excellence in a particular specialised field.

And then there are the quite right arguments about the lack of documentation for LSL, and the constant use of hacks like the one to tqake all controls, or the ubiquitous WarpPos. Are we to be commended for using the system in ways that were never intended ?.

In general, I think this certification is a bad idea. organised curriculums teach a certain way of doing things, and while there are some general rules, like no listening on channel 0 unless really necessary, the majority of LSL is an open ended toolset which we use to achieve whatever goals we seek. Some more organised and less breakable revivial of the ratings system would be better, I think.

On a personal note, though. I know I can learn pretty much all other topics in a very short time if I need to, and pass every single certification there is. So it won't really affect me too much. But I'd rather not be so selfish.

And I just noticed. A category in the modelling skills, named "objects". Can you be a little more vague, please?

SL Certification
Newgate Ludd Out of Chesse Error Join date: 8 Apr 2005 Posts: 2,103	04-28-2007 12:18 From: Malachi Petunia They are looking to farm players of manifest competence to their corporate customers is my guess. Wouldn't you want LL to be your employment agent? Or maybe they'll just try to bring you on as a contractor and pay you in L$. Or, given their historic business model, they'll ask you to create corporate content because you love working for others for free. This "certification" is too asinine to lack ulterior motive. Well I doubt that will come to pass as I'm a non US citizen although I do currently hold the correct visa's (just in case anyone is looking ) I'm more than happy to work for them, in US$ or even L$ although 50,000/hr may seem a little steep. As for making corporate content that sure as hell aint going to happen. All jokes aside, I totally agree with your sumation as to the probable motivation behind this need for certification and standards.
Kenn Nilsson AeonVox Join date: 24 May 2005 Posts: 897	04-28-2007 23:56 From: Carlisse Midnight (at least $30 US / hour, let's say, at the low end of real world consultants) I wouldn't dream of charging less than US$60/hr in the real-world and generally set my minimum at US$100/hr. I know others who charge US$250/hr. But yea...when I quote prices like that to people in SL, only those who truly understand hard work and quality--and who look to find themselves a big return on the product--are willing to pay. So...mostly...we just make little gadgets that you can sell hundreds of and therefore market at US$1. _____________________ --AeonVox-- Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms chasing ghosts, eating magic pills, and listening to repetitive, addictive, electronic music.
Senuka Harbinger A-Life, one bit at a time Join date: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 491	04-29-2007 01:40 The "Merit Badge" idea that was suggested has really struck a chord with me. My own personal focus in scripting has been with fuzzy logic systems and AI. I'd like to consider myself very advanced in creating LSL based intelligences that make decisions, but many of the much more common areas of scripting (PHP/HTML calls, persistant in world storage, vehicles, weapons, etc.) I'm sitting at a basic knowledege level, and I can make scripts that function as asked, but I'm in the dark as to wether I've gone about such scripts in the most efficient ways. A merit badge system as proposed would allow me to learn techniques in areas that I feel like I'm lacking, perhaps even going forth as to show other people that I know "good" practices when executing those kinds of scripts. A general certification program will only show that I can make a script do something intended, and most likely not be a good predictor of which particular aspect of scripting is my strong point, nor the quality of workmanship that I express over the wide range of projects that I may or may not be asked to work on. _____________________ My SLExchange shop Typos are forgiven; desecrating the english language with reckless abandon and necrophilic acts is not. The function is working perfectly fine. It's just not working the way you wanted it to work.
Kenn Nilsson AeonVox Join date: 24 May 2005 Posts: 897	04-30-2007 09:42 I wanna hear what Heretic Linden might think about the merit-system. It's got the idea of certification...in a correctly flexible manner that fits SL... _____________________ --AeonVox-- Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms chasing ghosts, eating magic pills, and listening to repetitive, addictive, electronic music.
Peekay Semyorka Registered User Join date: 18 Nov 2006 Posts: 337	04-30-2007 13:21 I'm trying to understand the merit-badge system; we seem to be proposing: 1. Let anyone create schools (great idea.) 2. Let each school create their own courses and exams. In essence, let each school create their own private set of certifications. 3. Let some schools (and their certifications) be "blessed" by Linden through an accreditation system. 4. To be blessed by Linden, schools must teach Linden-approved topics, "and have their course scope and testing evaluated periodically to ensure that the accreditation was still justified." (to quote Winter). This idea seems to be in conflict with point #2 above. 5. Some private certifications are therefore "recognized" by Linden, but others are not. 6. There should be 32x32 icons to show which private certifications an avatar has obtained. Should this only be Linden "recognized" certifications (given by Linden approved schools) or not? 7. Certification is a big overloaded word, so let's call it "merit-badge" instead. If I'm understanding these ideas correctly as a whole, then I'm not sure having a multitude of accredited vs. non-accredited private certifications (merit-badges), offered by different schools, is any better than having a unified Linden certification system. My only real takeaway is point #7 above. There seems to be a negative image of the word "certification" in the SL community, even though certifications and merit-badges are really the exact same thing when you think about it. So, what if Linden continues to develop a certification process to be administered by third-party exam providers (as originally proposed), but simply call it a "merit-badge" system instead of a certification system? I.e., make it sound "kinder & gentler"? --- Personally, I think the idea of numerous accredited vs non-accredited schools would be too confusing for everyone. I think everyone would agree that Linden should identify "core areas" that we as scripters and builders should know about, and document each of them thoroughly. Call this our scripting & building "Book of Knowledge" (BOK); our Bible if you will. Then anyone (including the Lindens) can create study materials (eg., tutorials, classes) covering BOK contents. Then Linden may optionally choose to create a set of exams to test different areas of the BOK at different competency levels (basic, advanced, etc.) Any school is free to teach classes to pass those exams, guided by the BOK and the exam objectives. The exams are to be administered by third-parties. Whether the result of those exams are to be called "certifications" or "merit-badges" is to-be-determined. -peekay
Kenn Nilsson AeonVox Join date: 24 May 2005 Posts: 897	04-30-2007 17:14 I'm not Winter...so I don't know the full intent of her suggested system, but you're generally on par with what I understand it to be in your #1 - #7 assumptions...though I don't see at all how #4 is contrary to #2... I believe that the 'accreditation' of schools would be a result of a school becoming both popular and successful, and then reviewed by Linden Labs as fulfilling education that is both accurate and important. This concept would be radically different from a set, single, certification done by Linden Labs. It would rather open the door for many schools to cover many areas and for the community to line up behind the best...and THEN for Linden Labs to come in and confirm "yea, these people are pretty good" and grant them land for their school in order to help support quality educational institutions and encourage instructors who lose boatloads of potential linden by taking the time out to help others. The concept is more along the lines of supporting education rather than creating a single approved process. And sure...there will be some confusion as to which school is good and which school is bad--at least at the beginning. But that's the way things have ALWAYS been. Which college is better, The University of New Hampshire or the University of Connecticut? Is Boston University better than Boston College? UCLA vs. UC San Diego? And yet, if a lawyer graduates from Harvard...everyone says "that's our guy". SecondLife schools would develop in much the same way...instead of going to the University of Miami 'cause you wanna play Pro Football, you'll be going to the University of Vehicle Scripting to learn how to make car scripts...and some of those universities will be of the caliber of community colleges...others will be of a higher caliber...and some will even be of a lower caliber. Point is...it'll all sort out..good ones rise to the top, bad ones fall to the bottom...and Linden Labs goes to the top ones and makes sure they hit the right fundamentals...maybe makes a suggestion or two...and LEAVES THE CURRICULUM GENERALLY ALONE...and adds their accreditation or not. Badges...call 'em whatever you want..."Honors", "Merit-Badges", EVEN "Certificates". The point relies more on the system than the name. And hey...qualifications replacing an "Interests" tab that is widely useless sounds great to me. _____________________ --AeonVox-- Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms chasing ghosts, eating magic pills, and listening to repetitive, addictive, electronic music.
Iridium Linden Wikkid Linden Join date: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 262	05-17-2007 01:50 Your feedback is greatly appreciated. As I noted earlier, this system is in the earliest stages of development. We are open to all of your ideas. Feel free to continue posting here, to the talk section of the SL Certification wiki at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SL_Certification or drop me a note card in-world. Thanks for all of your comments!
Da5id Zsigmond Registered User Join date: 26 Jan 2007 Posts: 34	Focus on the quality work and celebrate it. 05-20-2007 08:23 I agree with the view that the certification idea is a little dubious in this situation. What do you put down on a test - what SL does in theory or in practice??? What's the difference between theory and practice? In theory they're the same. Maybe you get a point for certification for each bug or non-functional scripting feature you identify. But seriously folks, I've seen some really nice building and scripting work that people have done in SL and would like to find more but there's a lot going on and I usually only have barely enough time to work on my own projects. So why not go for a regular awards or competition idea. There could be an entrance fee and if you think you can compete - you enter. There could be categories not just for scripting but building - clothes - etc.. You can address both the functional aspects of the process - loose points if you use code that's really inefficient and laggy or that uses 10 prims to do what 5 would do, and you can address the artistic side as well. Also, while there tons of personal projects I'll bet that there are a lot of larger projects that are the result of teams with different specialists. So - I think we need the Linden Awards. In general I think Linden could look at the whole issue of ranking from the point of view of giving a little stroking to those that are really involved in SL and making it happen. To all of you who have posted the scripts I've used and leaned from THANX. To all of you that have taken the time to help me out with a scipting issue on the Forum - ThankYou, ThankYou. To all of you contributing to the WIKI - basically writing Lindens documentation for them - often experimenting for hours to find out how something actually works. Thank You. If Linden is smart as a company it will realize that the best bang for the buck is to really feed this community aspect with at least some acknowledgement - though some Lindens would be nice too since the tier on my island is coming up again.
RJ Source Green Sky Labs Join date: 10 Jan 2007 Posts: 272	06-14-2007 07:14 Looks like this continues to be fleshed out: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Scripting_Certification Also: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Modeling_Certification http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ModelingSkills http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SL_Certification notes a target date of fall 2007.
Ace Albion Registered User Join date: 21 Oct 2005 Posts: 866	06-15-2007 04:39 Someone is going to explain to me now why a furniture builder needs to know anything about weapon building or vice versa for modeling certification. _____________________ Ace's Spaces! at Deco (147, 148, 24) ace.5pointstudio.com
WarKirby Magojiro Registered User Join date: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 49	06-15-2007 06:40 The scripting aspect of that seems to be operating on a tiered system -------------------------------------------------------------- Advanced Particle Systems Topics: * ? [edit] Applied Quaternion Mathematics Topics: * Positional and Rotation Object Animation Agent Interaction/UI Topics: * Chat Interfaces * Touch based UI * Dialog UI * Notecard Config Database Scripting Requires: Data Management Topics: ------------------------------------- I can do all of these. Data mangement is my specialty. And I've just finished building interpolated animated transforming hair. That took a lot of math. But... ------------------------------------ Vehicles Requires: Physical and Non-Physical Movement Topics: ----------------------------------- I'm not so certain about vehicles. or ----------------------- Land based Audio & Video Physical and Non-Physical Movement Topics: * Physics o Methods o Events ------------------------- I know very little about the physics system. I'm still trying to understand energy. Does this specialisation prevent me from being "advanced"? I don't even meet half the requirements for "intermediate", but most people refer to me as an expert. I have specialties, as do many other people. A program of certification, I feel, will just encourage a mentality of "gotta catch em all", emphasising adequate competence in many areas, over excellence in a particular specialised field. And then there are the quite right arguments about the lack of documentation for LSL, and the constant use of hacks like the one to tqake all controls, or the ubiquitous WarpPos. Are we to be commended for using the system in ways that were never intended ?. In general, I think this certification is a bad idea. organised curriculums teach a certain way of doing things, and while there are some general rules, like no listening on channel 0 unless really necessary, the majority of LSL is an open ended toolset which we use to achieve whatever goals we seek. Some more organised and less breakable revivial of the ratings system would be better, I think. On a personal note, though. I know I can learn pretty much all other topics in a very short time if I need to, and pass every single certification there is. So it won't really affect me too much. But I'd rather not be so selfish. And I just noticed. A category in the modelling skills, named "objects". Can you be a little more vague, please?

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