Just a rant on sim-crashing guns
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Ghordon Farina
Script Poet
Join date: 1 Nov 2005
Posts: 126
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01-06-2006 16:02
Aww... Thanks. ^.^
Besides, I'm making MUCH cooler stuff now... like cyberpunk gear, pirate ships, and apartment complexes. (Absent-minded ADHD in action! I never stick to one theme for very long, but I usually end up jacking back into cyberpunk mode the majority of the time.)
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Psyke Phaeton
Psyke's Defense Systems
Join date: 12 Oct 2003
Posts: 197
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02-01-2006 10:19
I think that LL controls both the scripting language and the servers. If they make it possible to do such major damage/griefing it will happen. Responsibility ultimately belongs to LL they make this possible. Expecting humanity to be responsible is simply wishful thinking at best. Hugs Winter  v6 soon 
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Michael McLuhan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 3
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Lets Get Lindens to Fix The Client Viewer... Huh??
03-23-2006 15:41
Seems to me that the software you run on your computer has a bug in it... That is if the scripting language that allows access to the operation of the software running on you computer is capable to crash under script control...
Hmm... Now that I think about it, it crashes with me just wandering around and exploring. No scripts involved.
So How About It? Complain to Lindens for Less Buggy Client Software in the first place and quit making the whineass statements about how something in their crashing program is illegal.
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Teddy Wishbringer
Snuggly Bear Cub
Join date: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 208
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04-20-2006 15:24
From: Michael McLuhan Complain to Lindens for Less Buggy Client Software in the first place and quit making the whineass statements about how something in their crashing program is illegal. That worked wells for Microsoft.. I bet Vista will be solid as a rock after all the people complaining of the bugs in Win3.1, Win95, WinNT, Win2000, WinXP that caused griefer (aka hacker) attacks to be successful.. Oh well.. we can still dream.. *snickers* Edit: omg.. I just had a vision of how SL would be if Microsoft wrote the viewer and server software *shudders*
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Kyushu Tiger
Registered User
Join date: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 92
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04-20-2006 16:16
From: Ghordon Farina I believe that it was irresponsible of me to release said weapon, however I don't believe I can be held accountable for its misuse. Consider... Smith and Wesson creates guns. People buy guns. Sometimes, people shoot other people with those guns. However, Smith and Wesson make sure that every customer knows that the gun is lethal, and they cannot be held responsible.
That's Smith and Wesson's point of view. Not all of us agree with them. I'm not sure if I could sleep at night if I worked for them. Kyushu
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Geepa Lazarno
Registered User
Join date: 7 Apr 2006
Posts: 61
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04-20-2006 19:53
There is a sad truth that if you want the flexibility to do whatever you might legitimately want to in any progamming language, you tend to have to open up yourself to the possibility of serious problems, including the use of such flexibility for less than legitimate purposes.
At least, that is what I believe. I still dont understand the griefing mindset beyond knowing that either they are yearning to feeling 1) important or 2) powerful or 3) both. And that they don't mind negative attention in pursuing their sick desires.
I do believe it is a bad idea to give griefers what they desire in order to trap them and get get banned, but I suspect the author of that item has long since came to this conclusion as well.
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
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04-20-2006 20:14
From: Ghordon Farina Me thinks you sound like a griefer. Even if you're fighting griefers, all this does is piss them off and cause more grief, as well as make you a griefer at the same time. This is stupid. *You* are the griefer. You made a "griefer gun," sold it to people to use in "griefing" and caused no end of "grief" for all concerned. You say you made it to punish griefers, but no griefer using a gun that inadvertently drops a sim would get kicked out of the game for it and you know it, (or you should if you are as smart as you think you are). There is no sense in kicking someone out of the game for one time use of a weapon that is so poorly designed it crashes the sim. There is a great deal of sense however in kicking out the maker of the gun since he *knowingly* produced a weapon that was going to cause harm to the grid and to other players and their work. Those people (and SL itself), *lost* money, you *made* money, get it? Your reasoning is facile and childish. It makes no sense, and is no defense for your actions. You won't understand this till your older (if at all), but *you* are the problem and it's people like you that ruin the game for the rest of us. If you want to see a griefer, look in the mirror.
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
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04-20-2006 20:24
From: Strife Onizuka crashing a sim is techincaly a TOS violation, so is writing a weapon that does so. See Section 5.1
I've put in bold the applicable stuff. I would suggest that anyone who got griefed by this gun make an AR and quote both this thread where the maker admits to creating it for the purpose of crashing the sim and the relevant article of the TOS above. More than a couple of these AR's and LL he would have to have him kicked out. 
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
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04-20-2006 23:41
From: Ghordon Farina ... The gun does not break any of these rules either.... Sure it does. You admit it yourself right here: From: Ghordon Farina ... The plan was to lag and piss people off and appeal to griefers and to tempt idiots to crash sims and to kill / push everyone within an ungodly range. ... From: Ghordon Farina Also, just about anything can be used to detrimentally interfere with systems. ... These comparisons are equally stupid and meaningless. What are you, 10? llTargetOmega can be used to do all sorts of things, but it's what you actually do use it for that's at issue, not some pie in the sky list of possibilities. You could probably kill someone with a Q-tip but thats an equally meaningless thing to say. You designed a product explicitly made to screw people around, take money from "fools" and lag, and hopefully crash, sims. You designed a product that you explicitly hoped would be the biggest griefer weapon of all time, the weapon to end all weapons etc. This was your intention, right from the start and you said so yourself. Now you're trying to weasle out of the consequences of admitting this even though a few short posts ago you were happy enough to brag all about it and take all the credit. You want the "cred" for the act, without the responsibility for the act. Be a real man and "own" your own actions why dontcha?  My bet is the method you used was likely well known to a lot of other scripters who were just too honorable and intelligent to use it. Your not the greatest scripter of all time, your just another little boy with no sense of right and wrong who likes to brag a lot. Impressive? *yawn*
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Strife Onizuka
Moonchild
Join date: 3 Mar 2004
Posts: 5,887
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04-21-2006 04:12
Dianne, your methods are bit harsh. Why couldn't this thread just die a quiet death? As to explain the TOS quotation: (which as a ResMod i do not have power to enforce) 5.1.iii) disrupting the service is in my understanding of the current federal laws is criminal; though in this sort of situation it would be hard to make stick, as it is only a single sim amongst thousands. 5.1.v) ...Upload ... Content that contains any ... computer programming routines that are intended to ... detrimentally interfere with ... any system. The system in this case is the sim itself. 5.1.viii) interfere or distrupt the service. The intention was to provide a method for others to disrupt the service. Which is paramount to the creator having an intention to disrupt the service (or gross negligence; aka depraved indifference). In the sceme of things, this is typical forum drama. Don't cause grief directly or indirectly; ultimately you will end up surrounded by it (you make the bed you lay in). I consider this topic complete
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Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river. - Cyril Connolly
Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence. - James Nachtwey
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Blakar Ogre
Registered User
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 209
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04-21-2006 04:14
This debate is very similar to the typical debates on IT security. Is it good or bad to release exploits? Are you malicious if you release something or just when you use it?
Personally I am on the camp that supports releasing most exploits. Releasing them has always lead to better solutions. Especially if the used technique is easily reproducable. I'm pretty sure the author was well aware that the original idea was not spectacular enough for it to be totally unique. Hence whether he released it publicly or not does not matter in the long run as it would be used anyway. I'm only against releasing code that is too advanced and unique.
Even more it wasn't an exploit per se, its potential power exceeded the limits of what a sim could bear. You're caught speeding, do you send the ticket to Ferrari, Porsche, ...? No you don't. Sure they sold you a car that was able to pass the speed limit but you bought it knowing that. A serial killer mows down his victims with a professional high power chainsaw. Are you going to sue the manufacterer for selling it? There are thousands of examples.
Punishing those that create instead of those that use exploits has never solved anything. It pushes the creators to go underground and that's exactly where the griefers love to be too. As an end result you see as much grief but it's tons harder to understand it and get rid of it.
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Strife Onizuka
Moonchild
Join date: 3 Mar 2004
Posts: 5,887
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04-21-2006 04:34
From: Blakar Ogre This debate is very similar to the typical debates on IT security. Is it good or bad to release exploits? Are you malicious if you release something or just when you use it? Personally I am on the camp that supports releasing most exploits. Releasing them has always lead to better solutions. Especially if the used technique is easily reproducable. I'm pretty sure the author was well aware that the original idea was not spectacular enough for it to be totally unique. Hence whether he released it publicly or not does not matter in the long run as it would be used anyway. I'm only against releasing code that is too advanced and unique. Security experts in the computer industry do not sell their research. From: Blakar Ogre Even more it wasn't an exploit per se, its potential power exceeded the limits of what a sim could bear. You're caught speeding, do you send the ticket to Ferrari, Porsche, ...? No you don't. Sure they sold you a car that was able to pass the speed limit but you bought it knowing that. A serial killer mows down his victims with a professional high power chainsaw. Are you going to sue the manufacterer for selling it? There are thousands of examples. Speeding while illegal doesn't do any financial harm. A car has other uses besides speeding. A chainsaw has other users besides mowing down victims. A sim crashing gun has one use. While in RL you have a Constitional right to own a gun, in SL you don't. In RL if you owned a nuclear weapon they would arrest you faster then you could open your front door (they would kick it in); and if you flinched they would shoot you. A sim crashing gun isn't on par with typical guns, it's in the nuclear class. From: Blakar Ogre Punishing those that create instead of those that use exploits has never solved anything. It pushes the creators to go underground and that's exactly where the griefers love to be too. As an end result you see as much grief but it's tons harder to understand it and get rid of it. The symptoms of griefing are obvious. Curing the symptoms involves taking action agaisnt those responsible, and LL keeps access logs. People who crash the grid, have thier access logs turned over to the FBI. If greifers go underground and don't cause grief, then are they really griefers then? If they cause grief, it's easy enough to ban them. This isn't some flowerly democracy with checks and balances and loop holes. This is a despotism, and if you stand too tall, your head will roll.
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Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river. - Cyril Connolly
Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence. - James Nachtwey
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Sky Honey
Coder
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 105
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04-21-2006 08:53
From: Blakar Ogre This debate is very similar to the typical debates on IT security. Is it good or bad to release exploits? Are you malicious if you release something or just when you use it?
Personally I am on the camp that supports releasing most exploits. Releasing them has always lead to better solutions. Especially if the used technique is easily reproducable. I'm pretty sure the author was well aware that the original idea was not spectacular enough for it to be totally unique. Hence whether he released it publicly or not does not matter in the long run as it would be used anyway. I'm only against releasing code that is too advanced and unique. I too favour releasing information about security breaches, after notifying the company and giving them a chance to fix it. Microsoft, for example, is generally responsible about fixing the flaw and putting out a security update as soon as possible. A good thing. But this is completely different. This is not a security expert working for the good of the community. This is a griefer working to make SL less enjoyable for the rest of us. This is not publishing a security flaw, it's childish bragging. And LL is not going to patch SL to make this impossible for other script kiddies. From: Blakar Ogre Punishing those that create instead of those that use exploits has never solved anything. I don't think it's ever been tried. From: Strife Onizuka Speeding while illegal doesn't do any financial harm. A car has other uses besides speeding. A chainsaw has other users besides mowing down victims. A sim crashing gun has one use. While in RL you have a Constitional right to own a gun, in SL you don't. In RL if you owned a nuclear weapon they would arrest you faster then you could open your front door (they would kick it in); and if you flinched they would shoot you. A sim crashing gun isn't on par with typical guns, it's in the nuclear class. Nicely put 
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
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04-21-2006 09:05
From: Strife Onizuka Dianne, your methods are bit harsh. Why couldn't this thread just die a quiet death?... I consider this topic complete Apologies for being harsh. I wish I had your zen-like calm.  Idiots make me mad, and I perhaps get a trifle over-zealous in my replies as a result.
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Phoenix Psaltery
Ninja Wizard
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,599
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04-21-2006 09:15
This thread reminds me of the anti-smoking PSAs that are produced by Benson & Hedges. They don't really want people to stop smoking -- it'd put them out of business. Griefers don't really want LSL cleaned up to disable their grief weapons -- it'd put them out of business. P2
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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(offtopic)
04-21-2006 11:31
From: Strife Onizuka In RL if you owned a nuclear weapon they would arrest you faster then you could open your front door (they would kick it in); and if you flinched they would shoot you. A sim crashing gun isn't on par with typical guns, it's in the nuclear class. Actually, a good case can be made that if you take the 2nd amendment literally in the context of the time, you have to grant individuals the right to own weapons that are comparable to those of the military. In the 18th century, after all, that's what they had and that's why the rebellion worked. 
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Calix Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2005
Posts: 212
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Push Sticks?
05-21-2006 16:44
From: Jora Welesa Call me wierd, but I prefer Melee weapons over guns. I've just never liked guns. Takes all the fun out of getting in close to someone. The current incarnatin of the LCK saber I've designed has the ability to deflect incoming projectiles, so it gives some amount of defense, though it requires good timing on the wielder's part to be effective. I've been lag gunned before and it really is annoying to me. The goal of my LCK defensive method is to send the offending projectile right back at the person who sent it. It does so, right now, about 30% of the time. I love weapons crafted with elegance and usability in mind, and If I find a weapon to not be "Sim safe" I won't use it. If one of my weapns is as such, I continue to work on it until it is. Currently I'm working on the Soul Reaver. A little fan project. But I'm woolgathering, I apologize. I'm sorry, Ghordon. I like you. You're a good guy, but sadly, I have to say that if a person knowingly creates a weapon that has the ability to bring a sim to a crashing halt, and then release it, they should be held equally accountable as the griefers that use it. Regardless of your original intent, you should not have released this weapon, as I'm sure LL has had quite a few headaches from its use. I know my own weapons can be used to grief. They have quite a bit of push to them, but never something quite to the point of dropping a sim. No one has ever even been ghosted by my work as far as I know. It's just...As weapon developers, there's just a line that should not be crossed. I'm glad you've decided to take it down. That's a good thing, but unfortunatly, like you stated, the damage has been done and the weapon is out in the wild. I hope that it doesn't come back to bite anyone in the rear. So basically these are push sticks? Ok what is the difference here? If it was in a teddy bear and your av held it and it could slap someone 500m what's the difference? Meh. Pot, Kettle, Black.
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