Is there a defense against griefer scripts that ignore no-push settings?

A new trick to an old thread, but some clever people are finding ways around the old sit-to-prevent orbit concept. The best one I've seen involves exploiting the reaction sims have when a physical object penetrates a non physical one with certain parameters. Essentially the idea was to have a sim delete your chair to prevent the sim from crashing due to the stressfull physics situation (which it does to things like overlapping physical and non physical objects and the infamous negative mass objects) , leaving you orbitable : /

In all honesty, as long as there is a malicious intent, there is never going to be saftey within SL, no matter how much you try to limit the ability to greif. Seems to me this is a people problem, and not a technical issue.

-Kokiri

See that is something I was envisioning,
but could see how it would interfere too often more so. Sit just ...goes a long way.

There will always be crackers out there but you don't just give up. People being a nuisance to other people is indeed a people, not technical problem. However, being able to move an avatar against the will of the owner isn't a people problem though, nor is it a technical problem. The simulators are doing exactly what they are programmed to do. This is a SECURITY problem. And it needs to be fixed. And yes even if you cannot orbit or push someone. There will be other ways to annoy someone. Like following objects, but everything besides that can be simply ignored. You could simply give people to not interact physically.(This would be part of the server code, not a script, which would be then toggled by the end user) so that when an object with extreme (or any) physics hits you, nothing would happen. The object would bounce off of you or pass through you. In short. Modify havok. Maybe this sort of security should be part of second life's implementation of havok 2. Until then the best solution is to go into a simulator with non-avatar physics disabled. Greifer attacks FAIL to against this. Perhaps there should be physics disabled parcels as an option.

Disabling physics causes every avatar to stop moving (avatars move using the physics engine, go figure).

Not the best option available.

Sim owners have the option to disable (non avatar) physics. Fur nation did that once. Sorry for not being specific

Setting No Build and No Object Entry will AFAIK defeat most of them.

Of course, you can get an absolute lockout by setting No Script, but that's rather extreme.

Personally, I wish they'd give us a Phantom All setting for parcels, which says that any object not owned by the parcel owner/authorised group is forced to phantom. Bye bye cagers, bye bye no-push..

Ahh, that's right, the griefers always follow the queensbury rules and say "I'm about to orbit you, dear chap"

Either way the real problem is simply the griefers not the weapons, if we all had Verified accounts they would be a little more concerned with their Avatars reputation.
Even if Verified meant you were verified by a longer term resident who would lose his Verify ability for say a month if you were banned for griefing.

The best way nowadays is to

a) use an age check ejector script at the sims one and only telehub point. And make sure that damn telehub is ON. While this will hit one or the other innocent new player, this will for sure take care of any newb griefer alts by sending them back home as soon as they teleport in.

b) Pester them Lindens to put a LIMIT on the physics values to prevent exploitation of extreme physics behavior.

Vote for that! That's good!

seems to me that I saw a proposal one time where someone suggested expanding the ignore function so that when someone was ignored, not only could you no longer hear them, you could no longer see them, no longer see their prims, their scripts no longer worked on you, and no generated sound would be heard from them - basically, once you ignore them, they no longer exist in your "world", which I always thought was a good idea to deal with griefers, sure, they can come back with a new alt, but you can ignore them too - clean it out every couple of weeks or so (those alts don't last very long other than in LL's massivly increasing number of "legitimate" residents).

I don't know the limitations of the engine, but if this WERE possible, it would make a short end to the griefers.

IP ban greifers

IP bans are useless and cause more problems than they would solve.

Simply put: They Do Not Work.

well then instead of the simple answer why don't u just explain why they don't work.

Well, because it is fairly common knowledge in technical circles why they don't work.

The primary reason is because the vast majority of IP addresses are assigned dynamically. For dialup, you have a very high probability to get a different IP address every time you establish a connection. For many broadband (DSL/cable modem) users, this is also true (and can be provably demonstrated by simply power cycling your modem/router).

Thus, if you IP ban me, all I have to do is simply get my ISP to assign me a new IP address, which is often as simple as flicking a switch, or issuing a single command (ipconfig /renew, for example).

Where the problem part comes in is for the next person who gets assigned the banned IP address and finds that he can't access Second Life for some reason. He's done nothing wrong, so you're essentially punishing the innocent and doing nothing significant to stop the guilty.

Sometimes, some companies ban entire IP address ranges, which *might* be more effective against the guilty, at the expense of punishing a lot more innocent folks.

The day when everyone's IP address is permanently assigned for every device connected to the Internet will be the day when IP bans will be effective. However, don't hold your breath for that one to happen anytime soon. Even IPv6 won't be doing that.

Perhaps if it came to it we would all have to reply to an Email once a week to keep our characters active?
We need verification, some say it's useless because it doesn't stop all griefers, but I say car keys don't stop all car theives, but that's no reason to remove all door locks from cars.

Being caged a couple of times myself, I finally decided to get a combat system. Actually I have 3 now, and was attacked by 4 griefers.....needless to say I was unharmed and they were gone. So far..no griefer could defeat it.

Mandy C

I know that your able to get information from people like whether they have payment information on file or not so I think one of the best things that could be done is that gun makers become required to make their guns only function for people with payment information on file. Maybe this wont have to be true with all guns but atleast if your going to make an anti-griefer gun then make it usable to only those with payment information so if it is ever abused maybe more action can be taken.

While a nice idea it's distinctively flowing against "The Vision" of SL from LL.

Think of SL as the untamed wilds of coding; you have (for all intents and purposes) no limits on what you can create. If you want to create a gigantic 200m tall statue of the infamous Goatse you can do so. If you want to create a virtual eco system that thrives by it's own checks and balances of predators/prey, it's possible to build one.


Requiring restrictions for a person who builds a certain kind of object (guns only work for verified accounts) goes directly against this free-willed creation philosphy that reigns in SL. Would a gun that's only used in a safe-zone combat system, and doesn't do any kind of llPush() or similar calls need to have this restriction? What about a Gun that just shoots particles and no physical bullet? would this need the same restriction?

Not to mention that defining just what a "Gun" is is very complex. At it's basis a gun is an attached prim that rezzes another physical prim that's sent along a certain vector at a certain speed. My A-life do this when they reproduce, should they be classified as guns? I was commissioned around halloween last year to create a cave entrance that would swarm people with phantom bats for a few seconds when they entered. This was accomplished using a "gun" firing mechanic coupled with a very basic swarm mechanic. Is this defined as a gun?

I created my own anti griefer weapon. it's a wooden sphere that I rez near me when I'm working and utilizes bugs in the physics engine to get around the no_push flags to orbit people attempting to grief me. This is not a gun (yes it rezes "something" but it doesn't behave like you think an orbiter munition would), but I'm sure as hell not going to release the code to the public or make a no-mod for sale since it's an offensive acting object that *I* use in a defensive way.

Key word there being "I". It's not the weapons that need to be restricted (although I honestly cannot see a legitimate reason for having an orbiter aside from combating griefers *using* orbiters), but rather the users who abuse them. There have been many suggestions, and my own prefferences lie with going to verified accounts only.

That is very true. It would probally trample over a lot of other people's freedoms to try and make such a law or restriction but something that can be done voluntarily is that all people who make anti-grief weapons or atleast their so called "anit-grief" weapons, put in this code that prevents unverified accounts from using them. That would be the responsible action to do if the person really intended the gun to be sold only for defensive purposes. Then again you have to take into consideration on how markets work. If its about money then what would the gun maker care as to who buys it?

I do feel that future anti grief weapons should implement this security if they fear griefers taking advantage of the weapons.

Ill add my 2 lindens. What I have seen is that the people who get griefed the most often are the people who don't understand how things work. In games like UO, WOW, etc, they are specificly designed with limits so a n00b can come in with a minimal possibleilty of being griefed. But in SL, I belief the best defense is knowedge. Not just understanding how griefing methods work, but how to spot griefers ahead of time, how to place yourself in a position that lowers your chances of being griefed. And where not to go.

Most griefers will show up usualy wearing something tacky. They will show up and stand around a bit. Usualy they are doing one or more things, sizing up the area, picking a target, setting there equipment up for themethod of griefing that will be the most effective, and letting everything rez to reduce lag for themselves. People who do harrsment type will usualy make there characters look as offensive as possible and push you around with there bodies.

Griefers are opertunists, they go for who looks the most defenseless, and who they have the easiest access too. Things that indicate you are a good target is wearing obvious free clothes, and/or free weapons, just gives you that look of a n00b player. If you look at most experianced players, they have spent time, and usualy money are crafting a unique look for there avatar. They also usualy carry very good looking weapons, but do so in almost a more casual way. When I see someone I think might be up to no good, I will simply move casualy to a point where there is an object/player or two inbetween me and the person. Or if that's not an option I will fly stright up till im out of sight, then land somewhere else. Worse case, I hit my home command.

Don't hang around info centers, or welcome centers, or anything like that. Don't use LL sandboxs, there are other privately owned sandboxs that are policed like the Azure Islands (sp?). Definatly don't work on the ground. Either use a sky platform or sky box. I find the platforms actualy are less attractive to griefers to attack then sky boxs. Heck, even non-griefers will rez a box prim and it on it so they can penetrate a skybox just out of curiosity.

If someone is buzing around you, ignore them. If they talk to you, answer there questions with short answers untill you can determin if they are really just being curious, or if they are sizing you up for an attack.

Don't trust people with wings who you do not already know. ( don't know why, but just seem to find alot of problems with people wearing wings). If someone seems to be just standing near you not doing anything, tp out, wait a bit, then come back. If you get attacked, keep trying to tp out till you succeed, then look at your hit/bump log to see who attacked you. If the sim provides a way to contact the owner, report the attacker to them, if not, file a report to LL. After a few mins you can go back with less change of another attack.

Get a non-phys flying chair and use it as soon as you become suspicious of someone.

Don't go to Damage or Push Enabled sims.

Shields are usualy useless, its better to stick with more unseen defenses. Psitec's system offers a "movelock" feature that can invisiably help keep you in place. It also has an emergency button that elevates you a certain distance, and rez's a sphere around you which can help. It also has inteceptors and neutralizers that can help. DFSS system, i think those are the right letters, now has phisics disrupting shields.

Personaly I usualy am not armed, and don't use a any shields. I stick to policed sandboxs, and stay away from n00b areas and rarely have any problems.

For land protection, definatly no-object entry or rez for non-group members. If a griefer is really causing problems, shut off scripts for awhile. THey get board not being able to do anything and leave in short order usually. If your land is a business, and you want your customers to be able to open there products there, provide a small area where people can rez objects.

Provide easy access ban objects to officers of the group, like Tiki Torchs that you can use to ban someone with a voice command. Privde easy access objects that let people visiting your land get easy IM access to you to report people.

If you really want tight control access to your land, create a part where anyone can enter, and put the landing point there. Then the rest of the land limit to group access only and put a sign or something and the landing point so new people can contact you and request to be added to the group.

If someone starts agitating you, seeming to try and get you to say something to "provoke" them, or make them feel vindicated in attacking you, just don't say anything.

Well just my 2L worth

And you can always spam the griefer with notceards & IM's I did that once when caged till he decided to stop caging me. I just started giving him one of every notecard in my inventory and kept opening IM window to him. Hey give them freebie objects too skirts, flowers, lounges, they then end up with a crapload of blueboxes on their screen.

Hehe, want something worse? Guy I knew used to randomly go around doing this AS a griefer. Some which way, shape or form, he uploaded like a 10meg image or higher. Then when he gives it to someone, it locks up there client and kicks them offline.

I had that happen to me; I caught an ATM scammer in the act, and since he seemed to be idle, I just casually nudged him aside so that his invis prim wasn't in front of the ATM. Turns out he wasn't idle; He turned to stare at me long enough to get his target, and spammed me with a "GRIEFER" motivational poster until SL hit the upper limit of receivable objects in a given amount of time.
Keep in mind that this also has a simple solution; Log out and back in, then delete the items from your inventory. As such, it's an annoyance more than anything, and is very easily remedied. Though one must ask why LL decided auto-opening any texture sent to you was a good idea; I've had the displeasure of being sent a good number of things I have no interest in seeing, and anything that's worth my time to look at is worth the time to find it in my inventory.

On a side note, is it possible to have an attachment that triggers when the agent collides? Not just the prim, but any part of the agent/avatar. Just a vague idea I've been thinking about that might work into a anti-grief accessory.

The SL client is woefully insecure... On windows orbiting the avatar can/could(maybe they fixed it, i dont know) crash the OS. Linux comes with memory protection. But that does not protect you from auto accepting EVERY notecard/picture/landmark given to you. ALL items should go through the process where you are asked if you want to recieve it and the buttons should be changed from accept/deny/mute to accept/deny/autoaccept/autoreject&ClearItemsFromThisPerson. All of these types of attacks would die out instantly. So why does a 10 MB image crash the viewer too? I remember there was that windows WMF. But I load 10MB images from a camera sometimes. I hope the open source community will fix these

Put this script in a box, put an arrow on it, wear it as a HUD, preferably near the bottom right corner of your viewer:-

default
{

touch_start(integer total_number)
    {
        vector curPos = llGetPos();
        float X = curPos.x;
        float Y = curPos.y;
        float Z = curPos.z + 50;
        vector newPos = (vector)<X,Y,Z>;
        llMapDestination(llGetRegionName(),
                                newPos,
                                <0,0,0>);
                        
    } 
}

If you can hit it quick enough - it will show the World Map of where you were, but 50 metres above - so hit the Teleport button and you'll tp back. Oh, and start flying.

(You have an arrow texture in your Library\Textures\Waterfalls\Particle System)