Do scripters get ripped off?

So I'm guessing that the answer is this:

Yes, scripters get ripped off. But not so much by society or by SL as a whole, or even by Linden Labs.

The people that screw over scripters the MOST... are other scripters and builders.

This is inevitable, in a world in which people can be corrupt without repercussions.

However, I have yet to really feel the repercussions of this.


Here is a story that deals with this topic... One you might enjoy.


My good friend Winter Hatfield (you may have heard of her) built and scripted the ShieldBreaker gun about a year ago. She made a good $300 USD in 3 days. But then, she noticed that other people were selling items with her bullet inside them! The bullet that was the cornerstone of the gun. Apparently, she'd screwed up and forgot to set permissions properly. Someone had stolen the bullet from the gun and put it with their own gun, and sold it.

Of course this made her bad... But Winter had already made $300 from the gun, and she knew that it would take those competitors a long while to make that money. So, she decided to kill their business.

She open-sourced the ShieldBreaker bullet - previously priced at L$1000 - in order to make her bullet free to the world (and make the other people's L$1500 stolen guns worthless). Immediately after open-sourcing the gun, people started using it everywhere, and the bullet became famous. (It was already somewhat famous.) Winter eventually left Second Life for about 6 or 7 months... And when she returned guess what she found?

Every single gun she came in contact with had some variant of her shieldbreaker bullet. And practically nobody knew who she was. The gun was famous.... but the maker wasn't. However, when she approached someone who was using the gun and stated "I wrote the script that makes your gun kick ass"... The response was immediate. Insta-fan.

During her hiatus from SL, she'd been making at least $40 a month from her store. When she returned and started telling people about the gun, sales went up to aroun $50 a month.

I guess the point is, scripters can get screwed over, but only if they want to, only if they handle things improperly. There are good ways to get back at idiots that try to steal your work. There are good ways of keeping crooks from getting much money from customers.

Also - and this is the most important one - CHILL OUT. Getting "ripped off" won't be such an unpleasant experience if you just relax and deal with it calmly and cooly. Remember that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and then approach the thief. Speak with them. If they don't care or get angry about it....... Take action.

1. Boycott their store, tell everyone what they did, post it on the forums and everywhere you can.

2. Hand out a few free versions of your script (unless it's free to begin with, then give it to everyone) so that people know you're the best and brightest.

3. IMPROVE THE SCRIPT! If the theives stole your script and don't care, chances are it'll take them a while to notice that it's improved. Keep ahead of the game by making yours the best script on the block.

There are plenty of other things you can do... like open-sourcing to eliminate competition (if it won't kill you financially)... Just remember not to get too irate.

~G

Oh, and I forgot the first thing one should do in the case that someone's stealing their work...

Ask them to stop.

Probably won't work, but when it does it'll save you lots of time.

hehe, I think most scripters would probably agree, that scripting is excessivly easy to do ^.^ all it is, is learning a new language, then writing a book. The only complication in all of it, is understanding what each function etc does. But, thats something that time can cure.

The real difficulty in scripting, is finding something unique and innovative that no one else has thought of, and then applying what you have in a way that others would not think to do, and come up with something special. The problem is though, anyone who knows their scripting language well enough, can duplicate any other persons script without even looking at the source code. It just takes time, but the only valued asset in scripting, is the unique concept that the scripter thinks up.

As for scripts going for so low in price... well, personally, I find it dissapointing. But, it's all a psycological basis.. It's why i'm taking a course in graphics design as well as programming for my IT degree. Because, You could make the master of all scripts, that takes you 30 years nonstop to make... and people will look at it, and well.. to most, it really wont mean much to them... where as, if you make something visually artistic, the human mind notices that, and associates such a greater value to it, even if it only took a day to do.

Actually, I have an answer that you may or may not agree with:

You can see someone building, but you can't see them scripting...


No, really! It's about perception in SL. WHen someone is scripting, you have no perception of them doing anything except sitting there and doing... Nothing... No movement. No effects.

Just standing there...

So scripting, in SL, is doing nothing...


You can't tell me that does not color perceptions.

My "problem" is I keep screwing myself over. I overhear a comment like "I wish I could change the colour of my staff at will" and I'm suddenly saying "Hey, I can do that *type type type* here's a copy/mod/trans script, just put in the colours you want".

I think I should start asking for positive build ratings if people use my scripts. I'd get more enjoyment out of that than making Lindens; I could just do some real-world programming and buy way more lindens an hour than I could make selling scripts in-game.

Heh, I dunno. BSD licensing is a good thing, but you still have to trust people to honor it. I wish there were a way to stop people from misusing opensource code without closing the source, but if it's readable, it's pirateable. So ya, if you open source something I can't really understand any surprise when someone violates the licensing terms. Oh it's wrong, I'd be pissed if it happened to me, but I just wouldn't really be shocked.

Lets see, how to relate that to the topic at hand... scripters do get ripped off and if you look at it one way, they do it to themselves. Scripters in general are very logic minded people, and it's logical that if a method exists, it does what it's designed to do. So since licensing exists, it should mean it does what it's meant to do. There are two problems with that thinking though.

One, licensing isn't meant to stop someone from pirating, it's meant to provide recourse when it does happen. It's a fine point, but it's the difference between locking a cubboard and not locking the cupboard but telling them there will be consequences if they open it. So that's sort of a misinterpretation of licensing purpose. Not saying every scripter falls into that trap, but a number do.

Two, if you understand licensing provides consequences rather than actively prevents piracy, then there is still one thing you're relying on and that's that the consquences can and will be applied should the terms of the license be broken. In sl, they aren't. In the real world, they still frequently are not applied. It's not the way it should be, it's just the way it is. I can't blame it on LL since it's not specific to second life. I really don't know where the failure is. I do know that there is a flaw somewhere and in reality licensing doesn't seem to do any more than a one line "please don't reuse this for profit" at the top of your script. The people who would listen to the license would follow that line just as well. The people who would ignore that line would probably ignore the license because the license isn't really much more effective.

So, if you open source something the only realistic attitude I can see is to not impose any restrictions. It's sort of an all or nothing deal.

Truth.

Here's an idea that kind of balances the free/proprietary scales, an idea that has been done in software for years and years.

Offer a basic version of your script for free, and then offer the better, complete version for a price.

Or, offer the current version for a price, then when you upgrade, offer the old version for free and the newer version for the price that the old version used to be. And then give free updates for (6 months/a year/life) to those who actually purchase the thing. Give them incentive...

And make things aesthetically pleasing.

If you give someone a wooden cube with the coolest script in the world, it won't be nearly as impressive as a (insert amazingly beautiful/high-tech/cool looking thing here) with the coolest script in the world. And I'd be willing to bet that if you offered the cool-looking one for L$1000 and the cube for free, there are people who would pay the L$1000.

Just thoughts, and reiterations.




^.^

I think a lot of people have touched on things here.

The "so many scripters enjoy doing things for the pleasure of it" is indeed true but it doesn't seem to be a good argument to me. The problem with that is that most other types of people who make stuff in SL enjoy it too - most clothes makers enjoy making clothes, etc. - and that isn't given as a reason why they can't make money doing it.

Gordon's right about "making things look cool" but that's exactly a reason why scripters get ripped off. If you can make something look really cool then you're a scripter and an artist as well - and the topic was whether scripters, who may or not be artists too, get ripped off.

IP violation is a pain, but there's also the issue that it's far easier to duplicate a script without breaking any IP laws. If you see a script that does something it's often not that difficult to make one that does the same thing yourself, and if you sell it cheaper or give it away it'll usually be just as good as the original one was.

There's also the issue of self-expression - not so important from a business point of view but it can be devastating for the players' SL experience. You can't really express yourself in scripts while you can in just about every other SL skill, so you do as much work as others do but don't get so much of an improvement to the game experience for it.

I tend to agree with everything you said Yumi..except the paragraph above...

I believe any form of creation or even problem resolution is a form of self-expression. How many scripters do you know that would write the exact same code to solve the same expression or use identical function calls to handle parsing of a given command...and how many hours has anybody working with vehicle scripts tweaked physics variable to get it to move the same on the screen as in their head?... I will say that there are a eons more measurements for this form of expression.. but it is self-expression none-the-less.

Later
O

Oh, yes, that's true. But what I mean is that you can't participate in the self-expression of SL. People see your AV, they see the stuff you've buit, but certainly it isn't a standard greeting ritual (yet) to swap versions of a standard script you've both written to see what methods you've used.

Art skills can let you play a whole load of roles in SL, but scripting (alone) only lets you play a scripter, which is kinda bwee when that's probably close to what you do in RL too.

Another couple of my "truths":

1) Make an ugly object, nobody responds. Make a pretty object, everyone responds positively.
BUT
2) Make an ugly script everyone responds negatively. Make a pretty script... nobody responds (*edit: or if they do it's just a great object lol*).

/esc

if I hand people an ugly script that does what they want, and a pretty script that does what they want, they can't tell the difference.

Yeh, that's true. Until they screw up and get blasted across the sim as their elevator sits there spinning on its axis. Then they're glad you weren't sitting there watching them.

But I get your point.

What happens if they don't? The people they're most screwing over by not honoring the BSD license is themselves... because they're putting a time bomb in their own product. Just ask AT&T about that... if they hadn't screwed up that way they may not have lost control of UNIX.

Look, if Microsoft is happy to honor the BSD license, why would anyone else not agree to do it?

I would. Because the BSD licensing terms are the most liberal I know of short of casting your code into the public domain.

In practice, that means you have to be willing to follow through. In the real world or second life, it doesn't matter. The only person who can enforce your license is you.

No. No. No.

If you open-source something the only realistic attitude is to accept personal responsibility for enforcing your restrictions, or to hand the copyright over to someone who is willing to do so. That's why a lot of GPL software has been handed over to the Free Software Foundation, because they can and do enforce those licenses.

And if you USE open Source software, the only realistic attitude is to obey the license, because you never know when you're going to run into someone like the FSF or the University of California, and discover that you no longer control the right to copy your own code!

I think that's the crux of the problem there. If you're serious about following through, your not for profit code can suddenly cost you some money. the Free Software Foundation is a good argument. Maybe we can bring them into the lsl venue .

I still hold to the idea that scripters can only get ripped off if they BELIEVE they can get ripped off.

Even Winter Hatfield, who had her work stolen, doesn't feel she got ripped off. She made plenty of $$ off the gun, it didn't matter if she open-sourced it.

(And for those of you saying that ugly prims with pretty scripts still won't sell, you should have seen her original gun. It was NOT pretty at all. The script was pretty sweet, which is why it sold. But the object, the prims... God-awful.)

If you come to SL with thoughts of big business in your head, you will be greatly dissappointed.

If you come to SL with thoughts of making beautiful things, you'll be amazed at how often people will be interested in purchasing the builds/scripts/clothes/etc. that you make.

Expect to make $100 a month, and when you make $60 a month you'll be disappointed.

Expect to make $0 a month, and when you make $60 a month, you'll be overjoyed!

Simple.

I dunno about only, but ya I'll go along with the idea that they can be ripped off because they leave themselves open to it, either by not using a license, being too trusting, and or not following up when it does happen.

how much someone makes seems to be a bit of a tangent, as does ugly vs pretty prims since the population of sl contains people who value different things and have different asthetic tastes.

Either that, or use a license that matches what you actually want people to do and what you're willing to enforce.

I don't mind people using my software in proprietary products, and I don't want to have to stop them from doing so, so I use the BSD license. Don't need no FSF here.

Gordon, I don't just mean "ripped off" in terms of money; I mean "ripped off" in terms of enjoyment:work ratio.



Well, that's the problem: how can you show someone that a script is "beautiful"? And if it is, who but a scripter cares?

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this..." *pokes head*
"Then stop doing that..."

If you feel that scripting has become more work than pleasure, maybe you should take up a new past time? Unless scripting IS your work, in which case you shouldn't complain.



Scripters can appreciate beautiful scripts. Other people may not see it as well... but often times you'd be surprised how people get amazed by such things. The script itself, in terms of "code poetry," may not be pretty... But it's effects sure can be. Some scripters see the script itself as an art form, others see its effects as an art form. I think that the latter gets noticed more in the rest of the world. (Even though I consider myself one of the former.)

Also, if you can befriend a talented builder, then you might find that the pairing can make life fun, and get your beautiful scripting noticed.

I still hold that you can only get cheated if you believe you can, and if you let yourself.

Well, it's the work:enjoyment ratio it provides within SL. Yes, I've got the option of quitting SL and doing something else, but I'd rather not do that for the moment because I like folks there - and it wouldn't be relevant to an argument of whether scripters get ripped off within SL or not.

And if I could do any of the other stuff in SL well enough to be worth bothering with then, I'd be an artists/animator/whatever as well as a scripter, and again that wouldn't be the question.



I've done that a few times, but usually you wind up doing all the scripting for all the funky stuff they want to make, and they never bother asking if you have any ideas you want them to build.

I think scripters get ripped off by LL. The lack of assistance with non-trivial problems that volunteers on these forums or live help can't solve is really disappointing for a product that's marketed as a development platform.

Witness for example the misery in this thread /142/67/76781/1.html and the wall of silence coming back from LL (the mentioned scripter's list is the same).

I never said leave SL... I said maybe you should stop scripting. You don't have to leave just because you don't script anymore. If you do something for fun and it stops being fun, stop doing it. But it doesn't mean you gotta leave the world... For example. I wanted to have fun skateboarding as a child, but I kept falling and it was more work than fun. So I stopped skateboarding... But I didn't leave the planet Earth! I stayed here, and found plenty of other things to do.



You need to find a better friend. I've found a number of great builders that are happy to build the things I need. We have a mutual agreement. They build what I need, and in return I script some of the things they need. Also, maybe you shouldn't just wait for them to ask if you need something built... maybe you should ASK THEM! Be proactive rather than lazy!




In the end... If you need someone to build something for you and you can't build it yourself, you can send me a message in-world and I'll see if I can't build something for you. I'm a decent builder as well as scripter.

Sure. But what I'm saying is that if I had another option for making stuff, other than scripting, then I wouldn't be a pure scripter which was the topic of this thread. Now, it happens that this does apply to my personal situation, but that wasn't so much what I wanted to discuss.

As I say, I find it very frustrating to be stuck piecing an AV together from what's available because I don't have the option of making one that 100% matches what I wanted, and flying around regularly seeing items and saying "I could do that better, but there's no point, because the existing one has already got control the market" - which is a problem artists don't have, because if they make something better, folks can see that it is better. I'd call this the "**** effect" where **** is a four-letter acronym that I won't mention in case someone takes it as an attack (hint: the first letter is one of the most uncommon in English)



It's not being lazy, it's being understanding and not bothering them. If they can't be bothered to ask me a question what's the chance they'd be bothered to build me an object?

Heh, what about that. I just saw somebody selling a "Scripter's Begging Sign".

(starts again to consider whether to stay on or not)