Second Life Forums Archive - When you make a laying or sitting pose...

Tonya Olsen

Junior Member

Join date: 27 Jul 2004

Posts: 6

07-31-2004 10:12

When you make a laying or sitting pose how do you keep your Avie from 'hovering' about a foot off the floor?

I tried dropping the figure to the floor in poser, but that didn't seem to do the trick - should I drop the figure below the floor?

Thanks for any suggestions/help!

T

_____________________

Princess Medici

sad panda

Join date: 1 Mar 2004

Posts: 416

07-31-2004 11:32

This may not be the problem, but it's something I noticed after having the same problem........are you wearing boots (or similar) when you test the anim?

The shoes you wear throw off the hip positioning, so try it without any shoes and it should work. I haven't found a way to compensate for the shoes yet, other that just not wearing any.

Hope that helped!

Tonya Olsen

Junior Member

Join date: 27 Jul 2004

Posts: 6

07-31-2004 11:34

Thank you Princess Medici - I'll give that a try!

T

_____________________

Ulrika Zugzwang

Magnanimous in Victory

Join date: 10 Jun 2004

Posts: 6,382

07-31-2004 21:43

The answer to that question can be found in the following thread:

/52/21/17752/1.html

In summary it states:

From: someone

Ulrika Zugzwang wrote:
The problem I encountered is due to the fact that the default Poser figure and my SL avatar have different bone lengths.

...

Further, when kneeling, an avatar must translate downwards the height of its shin bone to give the illusion of being on the ground. An avatar with longer legs than a default Poser figure will appear to hover above the ground whereas an avatar with shorter legs than a default Poser figure will sink into the ground. This is because the downward translation of the body (hips) is set by the shin height of the default Poser figure and stored in the animation file and is thus most likely wrong for the SL avatar.

The only way to fix this is to use a Poser model whose bones exactly match your SL avatar or to compensate by exagerating or reducing translations and rotation rates.

This also means that, due to the customizability of SL avatars, it is impossible to make static animations that are perfect for everyone. One would have to have the ability to create a dynamic animation which changes rates as a function of bone sizes to get it perfect.

This applies not only to kneeling avatars but also lying avatars as well. I'm working on a formula that will correct this problem plus or minus a small error for arbitrary avatars. After I'm done, I'll post it here.

~Ulrika~

_____________________

Chik-chik-chika-ahh

Tonya Olsen

Junior Member

Join date: 27 Jul 2004

Posts: 6

08-01-2004 11:11

Thank you for that answer Ulrika

by the following -
"to compensate by exagerating or reducing translations and rotation rates."

do you mean simply to move the poser figure down below the floor and use trial & error to get it right on your particular avie?

I'm excited about the possibiity of a formula for this.

Thanks again!

T

Ulrika Zugzwang

Magnanimous in Victory

Join date: 10 Jun 2004

Posts: 6,382

08-01-2004 11:46

For poses where the figure is lying or kneeling, all you have to do is move the poser hips down or up a little. For now the process is trial and error. In poser it will look like your avatar's feet are either above the ground or below the ground. You only have to worry about changing rotation rates if the avatar is walking or stepping.

The trick that I do, is that I make the animation in Poser as normal, then I export three bvh animations, each with the hips in the first frame at different heights. Since everything is normalized to the first frame, this has the same effect as altering the hip height throughout the entire animation with much less work.

I then call my animations "X tall", "X normal", and "X short" so that avatars who are tall or short can pick the one that has the least amount of error for them. (This is only on my newest animations.)

~Ulrika~

_____________________

Chik-chik-chika-ahh

Ulrika Zugzwang

Magnanimous in Victory

Join date: 10 Jun 2004

Posts: 6,382

08-03-2004 20:31

I have finished an online tutorial which explains the phenomenon of floating, sinking, and skating avatar feet in Second Life animations. It provides illustrated expamples and recommends solutions.

The web page can be accessed here:

http://www.ulrikasheim.org/animation/translation.html

~Ulrika~

_____________________

Chik-chik-chika-ahh

Tonya Olsen

Junior Member

Join date: 27 Jul 2004

Posts: 6

08-04-2004 04:59

{{{{{Ulrika}}}}}

Thanks for the tutorial!! It really helps to explain the problem.

T

Tonya Olsen

Junior Member

Join date: 27 Jul 2004

Posts: 6

08-09-2004 06:28

Ulrika,

I think I got it correct for my SL avie height.

I will try to find you in world and im you my Avie proportions and the yTrans figures for your calculations.

Thanks for the help!

T

Zuleica Sartre

Registered User

Join date: 27 Sep 2005

Posts: 105

07-28-2006 11:41

I'm still a bit confused...

I'm trying to make an animation that starts standing and ends up kneeling. I've seen other animations in SL that have a smooth transition from standing to kneeling.

If I translate the hips down in frame 1 though won't my avie start with its'feet below ground?

How do you alter the translation during the course of an animation? Suppose you want to smoothly go from standing to kneeling and back again?

Miri Aleixandre

Registered User

Join date: 9 Sep 2005

Posts: 7

08-10-2006 12:57

*little bump and an addition*

I'm having the same issue that Zulieca is moving from stand to kneel and back again.

In the preview it drops perfectly, when uploaded, my hip heights don't move

I've tried adjusting the center of mass, body, hip, etc but it continues to stay at the same height as the standing anim which consequently makes the kneel float over the ground.

Any help would be appreciated.

Luth Brodie

Registered User

Join date: 31 May 2004

Posts: 530

08-10-2006 18:26

to make an animation that goes from standing to kneeling, you can do it one of two ways.. have a really really really long ease in and out, or animate it directly (usually the best).

To the last person, please do not move the body itself as SL doesn't read that paramater. Pose the first part, then go 20 frames in and pose the kneel with the avie on the "ground" in poser. Fix the inbetween to look smooth. That should work. You might float, but you'll just have to tweak it, move the hips down in poser, until you get it the way you'd like.

_____________________

"'Aarrr,' roared the Pirate Captain, because it seemed a good way to end the conversation."
The Pirates! In An Adventure With Scientists.

Reel Expression Poses and Animations:
reelgeek.co.uk/blog

Miri Aleixandre

Registered User

Join date: 9 Sep 2005

Posts: 7

08-11-2006 14:40

First off, thank you for the response

I'm begining to think the problem is in SL, I have moved the hips down in poser, go to upload, hips move down in the preview, exactly how they should, upload it to SL

no hip movement, legs move up to meet the standing hip height yes, but the hip doesn't move at all from the standing.

Any ideas?

Miri

Azumi Mosuke

Registered User

Join date: 19 Jul 2006

Posts: 28

09-08-2006 22:58

i did try every tips said here and it did not even made my avy down a single millimeter.

i use poser 6 SR2.

if anyone could tell me if they have the same issue or to give me another tric to try.

Tallia Shui

Registered User

Join date: 10 Sep 2006

Posts: 4

12-21-2006 16:44

Like Azumi, I have tried every single tip suggested here, and my model refuses to go below the hover height. Any other ideas, or step-by-step guide?

I'm using Poser 7.

_____________________

:

zone::
@ SLBoutique.com
@ Second Life SLurl

::Insert witty quote here::

Ed Crosby

Registered User

Join date: 20 Dec 2006

Posts: 3

12-21-2006 23:52

Are you doing your posing with IK on?.. If so, turn it off after you finish the sequence and go back and tweak the tweens if you need to. Also most figures, especially these work better with limits off

Johan Durant

Registered User

Join date: 7 Aug 2006

Posts: 1,657

12-22-2006 04:22

I'm not sure why you advise turning IK off; why does that make any difference?

A while ago I noticed a bug with one animation I was working on where the figure wasn't moving down correctly. When I changed the gender in Poser, it worked fine. I'm serious.

I still have no idea why it didn't work, since other similar animations created since then work fine. Nor do I have any idea why changing the gender helped; I'm not even sure why I tried that. I think it's some really obscure bug with Poser's bvh export.

_____________________

(Aelin 184,194,22)

The Motion Merchant - an animation store specializing in two-person interactions

Ed Crosby

Registered User

Join date: 20 Dec 2006

Posts: 3

12-22-2006 16:08

From: Johan Durant

I'm not sure why you advise turning IK off; why does that make any difference?

A while ago I noticed a bug with one animation I was working on where the figure wasn't moving down correctly. When I changed the gender in Poser, it worked fine. I'm serious.

I still have no idea why it didn't work, since other similar animations created since then work fine. Nor do I have any idea why changing the gender helped; I'm not even sure why I tried that. I think it's some really obscure bug with Poser's bvh export.

Ik can really mess things up. Poser since version 3 has had a problem that it can get confused if the shins, thighs, collars, shoulders and forearms don't have an initial bend... why I don't know... if you look all the figures have rotations set for those body parts in the default t pose. You have to turn IK off to zero the figure or the feet will not zero out. I've made enough clothing and done enough animating inside Poser to know what works and doesn't work. Basic animations like are used here in sl mean you can probably get away without having to turn it off.... JMHO

I use IK all the time.. much easier to get the roughed out movements than having to pose every body part............but I always turn it off and retweak the keyframes before exporting to any format.

Johan Durant

Registered User

Join date: 7 Aug 2006

Posts: 1,657

12-22-2006 16:54

Try changing the gender. I don't know why this made a difference, but one time I had a problem with the hips not translating down in SL and changing the gender in Poser before exporting fixed it. It was only that one animation, so it was very odd.

_____________________

(Aelin 184,194,22)

The Motion Merchant - an animation store specializing in two-person interactions

Syndel Daviau

Registered User

Join date: 17 Apr 2007

Posts: 38

Bumping this up

05-05-2007 06:59

I am animating in Daz. Ulrika's tutorial page is down for me. I have the sinking on the floor issue. I moved the hips. I moved the whole avatar up. No deal. Did anyone come with a more effective solution to this? Cause I do not see the commercial poses/animations sold as in "for people with long bones" and "for people with short bones". I see them work normal for all. So, there must be a way eh.

Strangel Bade

Omnomnomnivore

Join date: 27 Apr 2007

Posts: 231

Bumping in hopes of help.

07-10-2007 12:21

I'm trying to get this to work--also have the hovering problem here, and I'm using the Poser meshes of the SL default avvies, not any of the standard Poser figures, so bone length/joint issues shouldn't be a problem.

IK isn't on for arms or legs or anything else as far as I can see.

I've tried lowering the figure (-0.120 on the Y) and the resulting animation still sits about 1 meter off the floor. I've tried selecting Body and Hips to lower the figure's position--same results on both.

Has anyone found a fix for this in exporting from Poser? Can anyone please share what the secret is? *hopeful*

Vent Sinatra

Registered User

Join date: 4 Jan 2007

Posts: 71

07-12-2007 03:19

I'm not sure about this, but could you try to rotate the hip a bit in the first (zero) frame? And make sure you moved the hip, not the body.

3Ring Binder

always smile

Join date: 8 Mar 2007

Posts: 15,028

07-28-2007 20:22

i made a 'laying' animation. no matter wut i do, it floats about 1m above the object it's supposed to be on.

wut can i do about this?

_____________________

it was fun while it lasted.
http://2lf.informe.com/

Djezebel Drake

Registered User

Join date: 28 Apr 2006

Posts: 17

07-29-2007 03:28

Hello.

A little tips. When you create a kneeling animation, it's ok in poser but not in SL.
So if you don't wanna remake it, do the following things :

- Go to main menu "Figure" then "Use inverse cinematics"
- Unmatch left leg and right leg
- Chose the hips of your character on the frame where it should be "down"
- Change the "move up -down" value from 300 (for exemple) to : (- 2800) : raised on the knees or (- 4000) : sit on the feet.

When you play it, you will see on poser the character going "down" the ground, but on SL it will be ok.

If you have between frames, you can clear just the part "move up-down" to have a fluid movement.

Enjoy ^^

3Ring Binder

always smile

Join date: 8 Mar 2007

Posts: 15,028

07-29-2007 05:48

does this also work for laying animations?

_____________________

it was fun while it lasted.
http://2lf.informe.com/

When you make a laying or sitting pose...
Tonya Olsen Junior Member Join date: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 6	07-31-2004 10:12 When you make a laying or sitting pose how do you keep your Avie from 'hovering' about a foot off the floor? I tried dropping the figure to the floor in poser, but that didn't seem to do the trick - should I drop the figure below the floor? Thanks for any suggestions/help! T _____________________
Princess Medici sad panda Join date: 1 Mar 2004 Posts: 416	07-31-2004 11:32 This may not be the problem, but it's something I noticed after having the same problem........are you wearing boots (or similar) when you test the anim? The shoes you wear throw off the hip positioning, so try it without any shoes and it should work. I haven't found a way to compensate for the shoes yet, other that just not wearing any. Hope that helped!
Tonya Olsen Junior Member Join date: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 6	07-31-2004 11:34 Thank you Princess Medici - I'll give that a try! T _____________________
Ulrika Zugzwang Magnanimous in Victory Join date: 10 Jun 2004 Posts: 6,382	07-31-2004 21:43 The answer to that question can be found in the following thread: /52/21/17752/1.html In summary it states: From: someone Ulrika Zugzwang wrote: The problem I encountered is due to the fact that the default Poser figure and my SL avatar have different bone lengths. ... Further, when kneeling, an avatar must translate downwards the height of its shin bone to give the illusion of being on the ground. An avatar with longer legs than a default Poser figure will appear to hover above the ground whereas an avatar with shorter legs than a default Poser figure will sink into the ground. This is because the downward translation of the body (hips) is set by the shin height of the default Poser figure and stored in the animation file and is thus most likely wrong for the SL avatar. The only way to fix this is to use a Poser model whose bones exactly match your SL avatar or to compensate by exagerating or reducing translations and rotation rates. This also means that, due to the customizability of SL avatars, it is impossible to make static animations that are perfect for everyone. One would have to have the ability to create a dynamic animation which changes rates as a function of bone sizes to get it perfect. This applies not only to kneeling avatars but also lying avatars as well. I'm working on a formula that will correct this problem plus or minus a small error for arbitrary avatars. After I'm done, I'll post it here. ~Ulrika~ _____________________ Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Tonya Olsen Junior Member Join date: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 6	08-01-2004 11:11 Thank you for that answer Ulrika by the following - "to compensate by exagerating or reducing translations and rotation rates." do you mean simply to move the poser figure down below the floor and use trial & error to get it right on your particular avie? I'm excited about the possibiity of a formula for this. Thanks again! T
Ulrika Zugzwang Magnanimous in Victory Join date: 10 Jun 2004 Posts: 6,382	08-01-2004 11:46 For poses where the figure is lying or kneeling, all you have to do is move the poser hips down or up a little. For now the process is trial and error. In poser it will look like your avatar's feet are either above the ground or below the ground. You only have to worry about changing rotation rates if the avatar is walking or stepping. The trick that I do, is that I make the animation in Poser as normal, then I export three bvh animations, each with the hips in the first frame at different heights. Since everything is normalized to the first frame, this has the same effect as altering the hip height throughout the entire animation with much less work. I then call my animations "X tall", "X normal", and "X short" so that avatars who are tall or short can pick the one that has the least amount of error for them. (This is only on my newest animations.) ~Ulrika~ _____________________ Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Ulrika Zugzwang Magnanimous in Victory Join date: 10 Jun 2004 Posts: 6,382	08-03-2004 20:31 I have finished an online tutorial which explains the phenomenon of floating, sinking, and skating avatar feet in Second Life animations. It provides illustrated expamples and recommends solutions. The web page can be accessed here: http://www.ulrikasheim.org/animation/translation.html ~Ulrika~ _____________________ Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Tonya Olsen Junior Member Join date: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 6	08-04-2004 04:59 {{{{{Ulrika}}}}} Thanks for the tutorial!! It really helps to explain the problem. T
Tonya Olsen Junior Member Join date: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 6	08-09-2004 06:28 Ulrika, I think I got it correct for my SL avie height. I will try to find you in world and im you my Avie proportions and the yTrans figures for your calculations. Thanks for the help! T
Zuleica Sartre Registered User Join date: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 105	07-28-2006 11:41 I'm still a bit confused... I'm trying to make an animation that starts standing and ends up kneeling. I've seen other animations in SL that have a smooth transition from standing to kneeling. If I translate the hips down in frame 1 though won't my avie start with its'feet below ground? How do you alter the translation during the course of an animation? Suppose you want to smoothly go from standing to kneeling and back again?
Miri Aleixandre Registered User Join date: 9 Sep 2005 Posts: 7	08-10-2006 12:57 little bump and an addition I'm having the same issue that Zulieca is moving from stand to kneel and back again. In the preview it drops perfectly, when uploaded, my hip heights don't move I've tried adjusting the center of mass, body, hip, etc but it continues to stay at the same height as the standing anim which consequently makes the kneel float over the ground. Any help would be appreciated.
Luth Brodie Registered User Join date: 31 May 2004 Posts: 530	08-10-2006 18:26 to make an animation that goes from standing to kneeling, you can do it one of two ways.. have a really really really long ease in and out, or animate it directly (usually the best). To the last person, please do not move the body itself as SL doesn't read that paramater. Pose the first part, then go 20 frames in and pose the kneel with the avie on the "ground" in poser. Fix the inbetween to look smooth. That should work. You might float, but you'll just have to tweak it, move the hips down in poser, until you get it the way you'd like. _____________________ "'Aarrr,' roared the Pirate Captain, because it seemed a good way to end the conversation." The Pirates! In An Adventure With Scientists. Reel Expression Poses and Animations: reelgeek.co.uk/blog
Miri Aleixandre Registered User Join date: 9 Sep 2005 Posts: 7	08-11-2006 14:40 First off, thank you for the response I'm begining to think the problem is in SL, I have moved the hips down in poser, go to upload, hips move down in the preview, exactly how they should, upload it to SL no hip movement, legs move up to meet the standing hip height yes, but the hip doesn't move at all from the standing. Any ideas? Miri
Azumi Mosuke Registered User Join date: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 28	09-08-2006 22:58 i did try every tips said here and it did not even made my avy down a single millimeter. i use poser 6 SR2. if anyone could tell me if they have the same issue or to give me another tric to try.
Tallia Shui Registered User Join date: 10 Sep 2006 Posts: 4	12-21-2006 16:44 Like Azumi, I have tried every single tip suggested here, and my model refuses to go below the hover height. Any other ideas, or step-by-step guide? I'm using Poser 7. _____________________ :zone:: @ SLBoutique.com @ Second Life SLurl ::Insert witty quote here::
Ed Crosby Registered User Join date: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 3	12-21-2006 23:52 Are you doing your posing with IK on?.. If so, turn it off after you finish the sequence and go back and tweak the tweens if you need to. Also most figures, especially these work better with limits off
Johan Durant Registered User Join date: 7 Aug 2006 Posts: 1,657	12-22-2006 04:22 I'm not sure why you advise turning IK off; why does that make any difference? A while ago I noticed a bug with one animation I was working on where the figure wasn't moving down correctly. When I changed the gender in Poser, it worked fine. I'm serious. I still have no idea why it didn't work, since other similar animations created since then work fine. Nor do I have any idea why changing the gender helped; I'm not even sure why I tried that. I think it's some really obscure bug with Poser's bvh export. _____________________ (Aelin 184,194,22) The Motion Merchant - an animation store specializing in two-person interactions
Ed Crosby Registered User Join date: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 3	12-22-2006 16:08 From: Johan Durant I'm not sure why you advise turning IK off; why does that make any difference? A while ago I noticed a bug with one animation I was working on where the figure wasn't moving down correctly. When I changed the gender in Poser, it worked fine. I'm serious. I still have no idea why it didn't work, since other similar animations created since then work fine. Nor do I have any idea why changing the gender helped; I'm not even sure why I tried that. I think it's some really obscure bug with Poser's bvh export. Ik can really mess things up. Poser since version 3 has had a problem that it can get confused if the shins, thighs, collars, shoulders and forearms don't have an initial bend... why I don't know... if you look all the figures have rotations set for those body parts in the default t pose. You have to turn IK off to zero the figure or the feet will not zero out. I've made enough clothing and done enough animating inside Poser to know what works and doesn't work. Basic animations like are used here in sl mean you can probably get away without having to turn it off.... JMHO I use IK all the time.. much easier to get the roughed out movements than having to pose every body part............but I always turn it off and retweak the keyframes before exporting to any format.
Johan Durant Registered User Join date: 7 Aug 2006 Posts: 1,657	12-22-2006 16:54 Try changing the gender. I don't know why this made a difference, but one time I had a problem with the hips not translating down in SL and changing the gender in Poser before exporting fixed it. It was only that one animation, so it was very odd. _____________________ (Aelin 184,194,22) The Motion Merchant - an animation store specializing in two-person interactions
Syndel Daviau Registered User Join date: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 38	Bumping this up 05-05-2007 06:59 I am animating in Daz. Ulrika's tutorial page is down for me. I have the sinking on the floor issue. I moved the hips. I moved the whole avatar up. No deal. Did anyone come with a more effective solution to this? Cause I do not see the commercial poses/animations sold as in "for people with long bones" and "for people with short bones". I see them work normal for all. So, there must be a way eh.
Strangel Bade Omnomnomnivore Join date: 27 Apr 2007 Posts: 231	Bumping in hopes of help. 07-10-2007 12:21 I'm trying to get this to work--also have the hovering problem here, and I'm using the Poser meshes of the SL default avvies, not any of the standard Poser figures, so bone length/joint issues shouldn't be a problem. IK isn't on for arms or legs or anything else as far as I can see. I've tried lowering the figure (-0.120 on the Y) and the resulting animation still sits about 1 meter off the floor. I've tried selecting Body and Hips to lower the figure's position--same results on both. Has anyone found a fix for this in exporting from Poser? Can anyone please share what the secret is? hopeful
Vent Sinatra Registered User Join date: 4 Jan 2007 Posts: 71	07-12-2007 03:19 I'm not sure about this, but could you try to rotate the hip a bit in the first (zero) frame? And make sure you moved the hip, not the body.
3Ring Binder always smile Join date: 8 Mar 2007 Posts: 15,028	07-28-2007 20:22 i made a 'laying' animation. no matter wut i do, it floats about 1m above the object it's supposed to be on. wut can i do about this? _____________________ it was fun while it lasted. http://2lf.informe.com/
Djezebel Drake Registered User Join date: 28 Apr 2006 Posts: 17	07-29-2007 03:28 Hello. A little tips. When you create a kneeling animation, it's ok in poser but not in SL. So if you don't wanna remake it, do the following things : - Go to main menu "Figure" then "Use inverse cinematics" - Unmatch left leg and right leg - Chose the hips of your character on the frame where it should be "down" - Change the "move up -down" value from 300 (for exemple) to : (- 2800) : raised on the knees or (- 4000) : sit on the feet. When you play it, you will see on poser the character going "down" the ground, but on SL it will be ok. If you have between frames, you can clear just the part "move up-down" to have a fluid movement. Enjoy ^^
3Ring Binder always smile Join date: 8 Mar 2007 Posts: 15,028	07-29-2007 05:48 does this also work for laying animations? _____________________ it was fun while it lasted. http://2lf.informe.com/

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When you make a laying or sitting pose...