Feedback on Ad Farm Post - Part 2

Yep, that's about it, making sims ugly is his best achievement in SL

Sorry, but loss what? You do use this parcel for 6 months. Why do you think it is fair to have your past fees paid by the buyer if was you that actually use the parcel during this time? If you didn't earned any money with it, it is your problem.

If I'm going to sell my house in RL, I don't espect to receive the taxes that I paid during the years that I lived in it.

Robo wasn't the only one setting ban lines on ad parcels... so were members of a well known anti-ad group.
Robo wasn't the only one selling micro parcels at high prices... so were members of a well known anti-ad group. (as well as many many others)
Robo isn't the only one "making sims ugly"

In fact Robo has three parcels on the sim i reside on. In over a year all that has happened is some signs went up, then down. He hasn't threatened me personally, insulted me, nor called on my 'kind' to "die" or be banned from SL or forums. Unlike many posters in this forum.

In fact Robo seems to be a whole lot more adept at this game than most - just consider how much land he has. His business plan (while not always the most ethical i have seen) is successful and relies on a distinctly human foible...greed. Ie; some person nearby saying "i want that land there!!".
If, as most of the posters here claim, he has the "right" to build whatever he wants on his land and be left to it....then he wouldn't have such a successful business. Instead he relies on human nature... people want to own the view, or tell others what to do, or take over more and more land.
I am not surprised he gets angry, consider the sheer amount of abuse he and others get in this forum alone, accusations of extortion (for having something people want and charging money for it?), accusations of criminality (for playing a game by its rules), accusations of erecting eyesores (??), accusations of 'destroying' the game (despite clear evidence to the contrary - the game still exists), accusations of bullying (by putting up a sign?)... and then, on top of all those illogical uneducated emotional accusations... the blatent arrogant abuse.

Robo is not destroying SL, i have barely given him a thought in 16 months. If anyone is letting SL down and making it a less desirable place.. its the people in here posting hate and abuse, and throwing accusations while doing the very same thing themselves.

I think the "kill" posts are immature and hurt our position greatly. It brings us all below the adfarmer and extortionists' level.

I like to think that Linden Lab's folks are aware that although most of us are passionate about our hopes that Mainland can enter a true renaissance, we're not all mindless rabble with torches and pitchforks.

Incorrect.

1) No one in the Ad Zoo was setting ban lines (of the "no access" type) on their "ad parcels". Two people (out of several hundred) used "buy pass" lines, only for a short time, on a SMALL number of plots, and with the intent to help put a stop to the damage Robo et al caused. Robo (and quite a few others) set up long-term to permanent "no access" lines on the MAJORITY of his adfarm parcels, especially in strategic areas to harass people into buying his parcels. So, it was not only different in kind, in scale, and in effect, but also vastly different in intent.

2) I am not aware of any member of the Ad Zoo selling plots for THOUSANDS or even HUNDREDS of L$ for 16/32sqm plots. A couple of people (again, out of hundreds) put their small parcels up for sale for their own reasons, but not anywhere remotely in the ballpark of Robo and all the others.

3) You're right that Robo isn't the only one "making sims ugly"; there are quite a few people in the "adfarmer" category. No matter what, though, you have to look at /intent/ and /motivation/. An ugly build by itself isn't a litmus for abuse.



Harassment doesn't have to always be verbal to be considered such. I've never been verbally harassed by Robo specifically, but I've most definitely felt harassed by his actions in the past.

Besides, why would he call on his potential customerbase to "die" or be banned from SL? Con artists definitely don't want their marks to "die". A dead mark can't line their pockets. likewise, a dead host feeds no parasite. On the other hand, I think it is fair that victims and hosts ask for the obliteration of those sponging off of their efforts. I certainly pick ticks and leeches off my body without worrying about their welfare. Same goes with their human analogues.



To say that he is adept at scamming is an understatement. He knows how to play the game, but just because a criminal is cunning doesn't make his actions any less damaging or reprehensible, nor any less punishable under the rule of law.

Con artistry and fraud are most definitely successful. So is burglary. As long as the person can get away with it, that is, it is quite profitable.



The error in that assertion lies in the equivocation of what Robo does as a "business". It is no more a "business" than larceny is a "business". Burglars rely on human nature, too: that people buy nice things and fail to secure them. You might as well boil it down to the argument "since they didn't lock their door, they were giving tacit permission for me to come inside and help myself to their stuff".

I don't know about you but, to me, being in business is about providing a bonus benefit to someone else for a fee which pays for my efforts plus maybe a little bit of profit for the future. I don't see how thinking up a scheme which intentionally provides a detriment to someone else, and then requiring a "fee" to restore the normal condition can, in any way, be considered a bona fide "business".

Sit down and ask yourself what thinking you would put into an adfarming or an extortion-based business model. Are you really providing a beneficial service? Or are you simply creating an artificial detrimental situation which requires payment to remedy? Would you like your doctor to give you some poison so you can come back later for him to charge you for treatment of illness related to taking that poison?

You see, that's the difference between a REAL business and parasitism. However, Robo shouldn't feel too bad about it; a WHOLE LOT of people make a living by screwing over their neighbors, so he's in good company. Still, no one is going to piss down my back and tell me it is raining by trying to justify it as "legitimate".



When you do something that hurts other people, they want to hurt you back. There's no mystery in that causal relationship. Some folks will turn the other cheek, but that response is nowhere near universal, nor is it remedial (i.e. it doesn't solve the underlying problem). As such, any "abuse" he gets, here or elsewhere, is directly related to the levels of abuse he has caused others.

I also don't buy your gross understatement of the extortion issue. That's the extortionist's view of things. "I just have something that you want, and I know I can charge out the wazoo for it as a result! HA HA!". It's not simply a matter of supply and demand. It's not I made a pitcher of lemonade and you're hot and thirsty from working outside. Instead, I have gone out of my way to make sure you're CRAZY thirsty by deliberately feeding you a rather salty lunch before you went outside to work, so you will pay me for my $5 a cup lemonade. Well, except that we're talking more like $50 a cup or more, compared to the prices being charged for microplots versus what they are worth at "real" market rates.

Robo and other land extortionists/adfarmers have created an artificial detrimental situation and are gouging people any way they can to get them to pay up to "fix" it.



Well, everyone is entitled to their OPINION of Robo and the situation. I just don't share it. Now that the worst abuse is about to come to an end, I think SL has the potential to become MORE desirable. So, while you can sit there and cast aspersion after aspersion to those who have given their time and MONEY freely to fix someone else's greed problems, I would prefer to thank them for their charity. VERY few of those who have been fighting to get this problem resolved have had ANYTHING to do with the problem themselves, so your claim of hypocrisy is disingenuous at best, and libelous at worst.

----

Just as a final note concerning Robo, I had an encounter with him yesterday. I made him an offer for his plots in my region (I sent out a bunch of offer letters to all microplot owners in my region; it wasn't just him). He showed up, and we ended up negotiating for one of the two 32sqms he had there. While he refused to sell me both, even though I had more need of the one he kept, he did agree to sell me the one for less than my offer price. In addition, he (unwittingly, I admit) helped me find a landmine that I had somehow missed from being removed. Overall, the discourse was civil, so it IS possible for him to become a legitimate businessman. However, until he changes his overall attitude and practices, he won't ever shake the image that he has generated for himself in the public eye.

I also should clarify that I don't want Robo to leave SL; I simply want his practices and attitude to leave SL. If that necessitates him leaving because he can't change and adapt, then *shrug* oh well. All it means is that he really isn't more than a sum of his parts, and there's no net loss in it for the rest of us if he poofs. That is the only real tragedy in all of this as far as he is concerned.

This thread has more circles going than a nascar race!

Tuck and Purl, Robo. Tuck and Purl...

This issue is driving me nuts. To all the people that complain that they have bought a plot only to find a hole in the middle or at the edge, welcome to second life. You people are stupid. If you don't use ctrl+alt+shift+p and look at the perimeter of a piece of land you intend to purchase then all i can say is you deserve whats coming to you.

And before any of you try to say i'm one of the people that do this i'm sorry to disappoint you but i'm not.

Its very simple, look before you buy. You wouldn't buy a house without having it surveyed or at least seeing a surveyors report.

Some times there are builds over the hole, or something to hide it. This usually happens to residents that are fairly new and don't know how to hide all the objects to see the mysterious hole.

... and they shouldn't have to when a hole is placed there and hidden intentionally.


Edit: I apologize for posting this message... I didn't know I was feeding a troll.

Sorry but even when there is a build on it, you can still cam down to the perimeter lines. If they are new and they don't know this then they got burned good and there's no point complaining about it

It's good in hindsight being a master of all the land scams possible, but the average first time buyer really can't expected to know everything especially when it's deliberately hidden by a building or foilage.
There seems to be a lot of support for the continuation of these practices, perhaps some should go one better and campaign for it to be allowed in RL too.
Waiter! can I have another Alt please..............................

Most people here are missing the point by a mile.

The problem of ad farms ( or for that matter people sending notecards to business owners ) would not exist in the first place if Lindens themselves provided a decent and effective means of advertising.

But they don't. The 'Classifieds' system is a pile of doggy do. And that is why ad farms exist.

You actually believe they are real ads? Many RL companies have no idea their logo's are being displayed here.

Second Life is a game.
For peoples enjoyment that allows people to create things and buy/sell them.
It allows people to buy for real money the in world currency, it is not a business platform, even if this would be LL's future desire.
You can make a little spending money, by having a shop etc.
But don't expect to cover tier costs, not everyone does, I would say the majority don't.
Some people make large amounts of real life money by having a very popular and novel product, or by making a substantial investment in islands.

But don't expect to make a fortune in Second Life, the greed and expectation to make money of many, is the problem with the Second Life.
It's what I believe drives people to steal designs, extort etc.

Enjoy being creative and enjoy exploring the many other creations already in world, have fun and stop being caught up in the ugly real world issues of greed.

Linden Labs hopes to make this virtual world more beautiful and peaceful, while still allowing commerce to take place.

I hope they can do it

You forget that unless just purchasing thousands of these plots and not holding any other substantial amount of land, the cost in tier can be considered to be zero.

I had until recently around 50 adplots, just one or two in any one sim with a notice warning new members of the devious extortion plots, and how to spot them, before wasting money on land purchase.
These plots were held in my excess tier so effectively cost me nothing, I could have had hundreds if I wished still just in my excess tier and held on to them for years as a result.

True I know adfarmers are not making millions and I do wonder why they do it for just a couple of hundred dollars a month, surely the time involved in this miserable and ugly business, would be far more productive spent on other activities.

All plots surrounded by one owner put on sale for high amounts, are of no interest whatsoever to anyone but that owner, it is extortion and when this is coupled with placing any objects on the small plots, whatever size harassment is the aim.

Is it fair to force sale of these plots?
Yes it is more than fair, fair would be to confiscate everything these people have amassed through their campaign of misery making and redistribute it to all the people who have suffered at their hands.
I accept this would be an impossible task though as most have probably already been driven form Second Life.

No, that's not actually why ad farms exist--it's one of those propositions that *could* be true but, if one knows the history, happens to be false--but there's a valid complaint about the limitations of other advertising media.

There's plenty wrong with Search, plenty wrong with how it can be used for advertising, and certainly plenty wrong with trying to use its features as the only means of advertising anything.

If LL were to fully control in-world display advertising, they could use it to offer a service that would have some marginal value to advertisers. But by misunderstanding their own service model, LL decided that residents should compete for serving network ads. The result has been that those residents end up either running or feeding virtual blackmail rings, while at the same time rendering each other almost totally ineffective, despite building ever-higher and more garish piles of prims. By allowing complete free-reign to adrunners, the value of that entire advertising medium was ruined. That is what the policy--and this thread--is about.

So, if the point is that the previous "licensing" approach was closer to making in-world display advertising effective to the advertisers the networks purport to serve: I agree. If the point is that LL would do better to completely control in-world display advertising: I agree with that, too.

Not quite so fast caped crusader. Classifieds are a pile of doggy doo especially since the introduction of the new search and I pointed out that this would be the case the very minute the new search was discussed.

However ad farmers do not advertise, their model is to gain money from spoiling the view, it's not an advertising issue.It's an extortion issue.

Actually, your facts are not entirely correct here. As a legitimate SL businessman with over 19 shops selling original products that I make myself (no reseller garbage), who advertises BOTH in the SL Classifieds (8000$L a week) and on 8 small, tastefull, roadside billboards (that conform to new Linden rules) which give freebies and landmarks (only when touched).

I've found that from personal experience that both the SL Classifieds and unobtrusive roadside ads have increased both traffic to and sales in my shops. I'm not an ad farmer, in fact I am responsible for helping to eliminate ad farms in two sims so far. I'm also actively fighting against ad lot extortion in my own shops. I simply won't pay ridiculous prices for tiny parcels, all the microparcels I own were purchased at the lowest price possible in areas that are predominantly shops. Everything that I reclaim from ad farms is being turned into public parks, open for everyone to enjoy without being assaulted by ad banners.

And contrary to what an earlier poster said, my SL Businesses DO cover my full sim Mainland tier every month, plus a little profit as well that I usually reinvest in more mainland for shops, parks and personal homes.

Do you mean "I sent one person who I had good reason to believe was interested in doing business with me an IM or notecard, and got ARed" or do you mean "I sent a whole bunch of people IMs or notecards, and some of them ARed me"?

Bulk messaging should be against the TOS. If you're an innocent victim of the fact that bulk messaging has so pissed people off that they mistook a personal contact from you for spam, well, that's a shame. But the people responsible for the problem aren't Linden Labs or the people who ARed you, it's the spammers.

I was not saying that all business is non profit making or that all advertisers are extortionists.
I have no problem with commercial activity and believe it necessary for the continued creation of new content, it is also nice to see you putting any profits back into your business, helping it to grow and using adverts responsibly, I sincerely hope things continue to do well for you

How many people have asked you though, "How do I make money here" The number of times I have heard that is astounding.
It makes me question whether Linden Labs is marketing Second Life in such a way, that unintentionally leads all new comers to believe the virtual roads are paved with gold.
Possibly this makes some users resort to unreasonable tactics to reap the rewards they came for.

Does anyone come to just enjoy Second Life and all that it offers without profit making expectations?

All those expecting that pot of gold, think for a second.

Linden Labs have to make a profit so Second Life remains viable, they and any business making a profit, have to earn their money from the rest of the residents, who are obviously not making a profit.

Are the average users, the non profit making residents just fools enjoying themselves, who deserve to be taken for every penny, via land extortion schemes and harassed until Second Life becomes yet another stress filled burden instead of fun?

The contempt adfarmers treat the average user with is despicable, average users holding a small amount of land are the Lindens greatest source of income, business rely on them to make any profit, they are the most important part of Second Life, putting in the money that keeps all the wheels turning.

Do you mean "I sent one person who I had good reason to believe was interested in doing business with me an IM or notecard, and got ARed" or do you mean "I sent a whole bunch of people IMs or notecards, and some of them ARed me"?

Bulk messaging should be against the TOS. If you're an innocent victim of the fact that bulk messaging has so pissed people off that they mistook a personal contact from you for spam, well, that's a shame. But the people responsible for the problem aren't Linden Labs or the people who ARed you, it's the spammers.

But wait, what's the very next post? Could it be that you're actually spamming?
I don't know about "advertising mechanism", but they don't have a bad search engine. And they have mechanisms to advertise in the search engine, and you can advertise in-world in clubs and other places where the landowner uses your advertising fees to help pay for their land. There's all kinds of ways to advertise without spamming.
IMs and notecard drops are not "common real world mechanisms" for legitimate advertising. Using them for advertising is, however, precisely analogous to email and usenet spam.

My heart fair bleeds for you. Is it fair for the fellow who bought the parcel next to you for L$10 per sqm, but now your ad tower's there he can't sell at L$4 per sqm. You cost him, oh, maybe L$6000-7000 on his 1024 square meter parcel, and you're whining about losing L$140..L$280.

What, you have 300 parcels? 1000 parcels? Each one of them screwed over up to half a dozen landowners around you.

My heart fair bleeds, really it does.

You are mistaken. SL isn't a game, it never was a game, and it never will be a game. There is no gameplay, you see. Right now, SL is what each individual makes of it, including a business platform.

Well thank you, I appreciate the good will.

I myself didn't come into SL with profit as a motive. I had already been involved as a player/beta tester/game assistant years earlier with Air Warrior for Mac, in open beta and live on AOL. So I had previous "virtual world, multi-player" experience that was not for profit. I found SL back in 2003 when it first started, tried it briefly but was unimpressed. Last year I came back to check out a sim that was doing "artificial life and evolution" experiments. So after looking around for a bit I got hooked.

I was already selling 3D software for artists online so it wasn't a stretch to move into this venue as well. But it was well after I had a grasp of the world and all it's tools. I'm still learning what works best in here. That in itself is fun for me, not a burden as you say. I see SL as many things to many people. Some may come here for fun alone and that's great and 100% okay with me. If everyone was a merchant there would be no customers. So I never look down on those people because they buy my products. Why would I have contempt for my customers? They keep me in business.

I know what you mean though about the ones who are motivated only by a quick buck. When I came in last year it was kind of on the tail end of the "SL Goldrush" as I call it. Every noob and his brother was opening a club, even I had one. There were monster casinos everywhere, huge sex and strip clubs, rotating banners at every level from the ground to the sky. Fortunately I think those days are behind us, or will be soon. I see those people as ones who are only interested in what they can "take out of SL", as opposed to someone like myself who is just as interested in what I can "Add to or contribute to SL to make everyone's experience more fun".

As these pointless "profit only" activities, which contribute nothing to the community as a whole, find that they are being scrutinized I think many will go away because it's just too much trouble.

Being a frequent land scanner ( certainly manually, no robot ) i may have already seen improvements

My hopes are also that megaprims will the next topic to be actually policed by LL.
Untill present time i haven't had the opportunity to see lovely monster prims.
All i have seen sofar are very dreadful dark mega prims blocking views...

My hopes are that LL will actually consider initiatives regarding the monster prims.