Voice and the Rights of the Deaf

I will let public opinion decide who knows what here, and I am feeling pretty good about it to.

hmmmmm notes she still did not address my main point, and ends up bailing out.

*shrugs*

Kinda funny thing I notice:

Everyone arguing over voice, using text, and people still claim they're "mis-understood" even with text?

So maybe we should do away with BOTH and go to a 'canned' system like Sony's "Home" where we're limited to what we can say??

Don`t understand and if i did I still would not.

Canned as in "Limited selection of phrases you can say ".

Watch the video for Sony's "Home". You'll see what I mean. Rather bland. Nothing sez fun like everyone using the same phrases over & over.

If you follow all the Voice threads, everyone eventually whines "You misunderstood my post". But its in text? Just like Chat!! So how could their point be misunderstood?

hahahha ok its been a hard day on sl.........

Osgeld, you wrote:

"3/4's of your post revolved around this friend, sorry im not a mind reader but i found them to be the main character in this crusade"

To check myself, and make sure that I, in fact, have made myself clear, I did go back and re-read the OP of this thread. I wouldn't make out my letter to be 3/4 about my friend (in fact, it mentions him, and I mention my own experience being shut out of the conversation), however, that is a point we could split hairs on, and I will refrain, for now.

The WHOLE reason for my post here was to spark a conversation about the social ramifications of the new Voice feature in SL. It is not a crusade, a mission, a warpath, or whatever else you would like to classify my point of view as, to kill voice. I have not had a positive experience with the Voice feature, however, there are many who have, and are thrilled to see it now part of the SL experience (Scottie Foxley is one of them). I merely want to hear from both sides of the equation on this experience, and I wanted to bring to the discussion my view with regards to the SL of those without the ability to hear (either because of a disability OR a technology issue). Don't assume you know how I operate merely because I've posted on the forums. Brining to this venue a wall full of jadedness and sarcasm will only go so far, and you run the risk of actually understanding what is being talked about, IMHO.

Furthermore, I agree with Rusty:

-----"The OPTION of voice allows people afflicted with poor vision to participate more easily in SL. It also allows those with limited use of their hands to communicate better. I find voice chat annoying, distracting and awkward... but for some it will be a welcome addition. It's not about closing doors... it's about opening them. The people coming through those doors may have difficulty communicating with some that enjoyed the text-only communication model that SL had... and there will be many that fall somewhere in between the extremes, but I still view this as a 'good thing'."----

I can see the benefits of voice, not only to assist those with limited ability to see, but to those who may not type as fast as some, and who get lost in the text-based conversations at times.

I would like to hope there will be a balancing out, and that voice/non-voice will be a non-issue. Again, these are just my thoughts/opinions/feelings.

-Hraefn

I've said it once, please allow me to humbly explain this again. I've been flamed for changing the subject with this content (which is ludicrous, because it couldn't be MORE on the subject), so please read on and try to be open minded and rational. I feel this to be an extremely valid issue, which seems to be avoided like the plague:


Game developers (yes, let us consider SL a game for the moment) are concerned with sales. Second Life is a product. The more people involved, translates to more profit.

A "good" product is created from head to toe with as many consumers in mind as possible. During development, many things are brought to the table, accepted, scrapped, agreed upon, disagreed upon...until finally a product roles out with what the team feels is most effective.

Demographic: this word drives all products. Let us for the sake of sales, consider two demographics: the hearing, and the hearing impaired. The hearing make up about 98% of consumers, while the hearing impaired make up about 2% (these are hypothetical numbers--I'm using age groups 0-60, those of which have almost complete hearing loss--please don't argue these numbers, that's not the point of the post). --because the number of "deaf" people are so low compared to those able to hear, a product will not be designed around this much lower percentage of consumers. It just won’t be done.

There are ways of incorporating hearing impaired accommodations to products—this has been done for years…we as a species are pretty sympathetic to the impaired, but there are certain companies that just can’t and won’t design their product around a small demographic. Regardless of how “shallow” this may seem. It simply could lead to disaster for the product.

To be real, Second Life already is hearing-impaired friendly…it’s mainly a visual, text-based game. How much more accommodation can you ask for? Secondly, what about the blind folks out there? Maybe we should be thinking of them too? Now that there is voice in SL, perhaps a handful of blind folks will be able to enjoy this community as well—this may be reaching...but it makes perfect sense to include ALL impairments right? The addition of voice to Second Life leads to MORE profit, not less. And whether you want to believe it or not, the addition of voice leads to a higher consumer base—accommodating even a wider spectrum of users.

Bottom line is, the design of a game is fashioned to please the mass market. The hearing-impaired are not the target demographic in this case. The “impaired” community can not be thought of in the R & D of every product…and let us be realistic, some products just can’t be made to accommodate the impaired.

I’m just a messenger. Don’t flame me…flame then entire concept of sales and marketing.

Facts are your uncaring..........No flaming......Just telling it the way it is.

I give up. Not only is this post cryptic and unintelligent...it's wrong. I'm very caring--clearly there is compassion in my post...this does not mean that a caring person can't be honest for the basis of the discussion and topic at hand.

In fact, I personally think it's more "caring" to be honest...as opposed to being so tactful, you can't even tell the truth.

Don't feel bad. You can now consider yourself fully baptized.

I admit I do have an anti-voice bias, which goes beyond my feeling that voice over internet technology is just awkward.

Being a person interested in the possibilities of using SL as an environment for AI chatbots... dealing with text is insanely more simple than dealing with speech. The inclusion of voice will, naturally, leave any "synthetic personalities" in the same boat as the hearing impaired.

Of course, I also access SL from airports often... I'm not going to even dare trying to use voice with other people around or that much background noise.

Usagi- You missed my point. This situation does not close a door... it adds a room to the house that only some of the residents can enter. Keep in mind that not everyone can script either, not everyone can create animations, not everyone can create music, or DJ events, or, ... or... or...

It would be nice if everyone could do everything.

But it is not right to limit the world to only those things that everyone can do.

I did understand your point really. Well then again everyone should have a chance to do such if they pleased.....Thats why people should be given a chance. Not even givening those people a after thought disabilities is very indeed sad.

Second Life is not shunning the hearing impaired by adding voice. Please, let's be rational about this. That's like saying Second Life shunned blind people for making a visual-based game with text.

Second life is a visual application that is mainly text based--adding voice technology doesn't change this fact. "Not even trying to keep those people that have those kids of disabilities..." ?? What in the name of Linden are you talking about?

BTW: What's the difference between those "people" and their "kids" when it comes to their disabilities? Sounds like you aren't concerned about the parents with disabilities...sounds like your concerned only for their "kids." I'm sure it's the language barrier. I'm just kidding around with you.

Usagi-

It is difficult to understand what you say even on the best of days.

It's even harder to figure out what you mean, which seems to shift around from post to post.

Some people would be very pleased indeed if they could script... but for them to grasp the concepts of scripting may be as impossible as it would be for a deaf person to sing beautifully... or a blind person to speed read.

It is NOT about "closing doors" it's about providing more people with opportunity. It results in a mixture in world that may be awkward for several. The vision impaired and the deaf may find it very difficult to communicate with each other.

Very much like how I find it very difficult to communicate with you at times.

I really don't think you got my point at all. I shouldn't be posting this at all, arguing with you is pointless and will only result in annoying us both.

I actually would have to disagree that Michael's post is an example of being uncaring. Unfortunate as it may be, he is right about what he's saying. All that matters is the money. You'll see it everywhere you go - not just SL. How your existence on this planet becomes more or less critical to businesses based solely on how much money you provide. It's pathetic.

I am beginning to doubt whether or not there will ever be a solution to this either. Your choices in business are to stay true and loyal to a small dedicated group of customers and possibly never expand, or to sellout, go for big bucks and alienate almost everyone in the process. Add to that the fact that if you do stay true, and your product is valuable, some corporate monster will either try to forcibly take you over or legislate you out of existence, and you have a situation where the route LL has taken seems to be the only one.

It doesn't make it any more palatable however. The reason none of this ever changes is because the same diseases at the top of the food chain, greed and selfishness, are also at the bottom. As long as that truth exists, there will never be combined action on a large enough scale to change things. People are too busy trying to get in front of each other to realize that where they're all going is the worst place to wind up.

Now you get everybody in here that's a paid resident dropping back to basic and dumping their mainland property and paying their tier to private estates at the same time in response to LL's stance, and maybe we have something to talk about. Maybe then the concerns of the people who keep them in business will become the primary concern.

Rusty.........
Now you know how the over all remarks from people are posting on the forums feels these days other......Its the over all quility of threads being posted and their replies...the forum is just useless regardedless. Sorry But making this type of remark makes no sence what so ever. Infact pointless I pointed out things things that makes in for those that understand the ADA. If one is not understand such information well of cource you get replies like this.

If michel`s post made sence in any ways, well all be in deep poo. What gave him the right to say in Professional view his neg remarks in his posting in that manner about deaf and unable bodied people. Infact it is unprofessional and uncaring know facts and just pushing them aside like junk on a street. He used a good fence sitting remarks alone with terms to help one really believe this about deaf people should be excluded. If he had repect for deaf people ( and he being in gaming designer, he suppose to have repect for all possible users not just he thinks are worthly) he would not even try to put his 2 yen worth in this subject matter. It just made him look unprofessional and uncaring.......
I highly doubt the gaming world agrees with his remarks here infact they doing the opposite of trying to include those that are non able bodied.






The world these days is more greed then ever. But still companie must make it through. By excluding non able bodied people in the case onces that have " Voice Impairments" how are they suppose to either work here or even soicalize without others making comments " use voice or wel will not deal with you" or "you are a guy not a girls sence you don`t use voice chat"
Now is this how a company (LLABS) repects that of deaf people and or future users on sl? Voice is a wonderful thing. But how LLABS went about throwing it as us without real warning. ( ok they talked about voice being added since 1.8 client ). But saying ITS HERE TO STAY. Saying this just in itself uncaring and disrepectful to those that either use voice or can`t.



This well happen regardless, because if the game is so unuseable people are not going to pay for the product/service.

1) Being a Resident of SecondLife is not the same as being an "Employee" of SL or LL.

2) SecondLife is not a "Public Service" or form of "Public Transportation".

3) SecondLife has a long way to go before it is recognized as a physical place of "Public Accommodation"

4) Lastly, SecondLife a federally regulated or recognized "Telecommunications Utility",

As far as I can tell ADA is utterly irrelevant to SL's voice issue,
unless you can give a SOLID EXAMPLE to prove me wrong.

If ADA is relevant in anyway... it would more likely REQUIRE that voice be included, not excluded from SecondLife.


--
Is an unwillingness to proofread protected by the ADA?

As stated earlier in this post, if the hearing impaired individual's friends understand that he is deaf, then they don't have to use voice around him. Linden Lab did not depreciate the chat function via text, therefor the Hearing Impared have an alternitive.
The chat feature is used just as an alternitive, nothing else. They are not using it as a primary feature, it is a simple chat function you can use if you don't feel like typing, or wan't to share personal information (such as your voice) with other people.
And if you wan't to get completely rediculious on the handicap's rights, you could discuss how people with dislexia, or slightly impared vision have trouble typing, or reading.

Untill voice becomes a primary feature, this is not a valid arugment. Take it easy all!

The good news is that most people won't use the voice anyway since it's clumsy and doesn't serve much of a purpose for general use outside of business meetings. The bad news... and I mean this in the most sensitive way possible is that in terms of second life you don't really have rights which is unfortunate but LL doesn't care about the disabled anymore than the able and they don't care about the abled at all. On the topic of the ADA it's been stretched to apply to company's websites so you might have a chance but I honestly doubt it.

Funny thing I've also noticed now:

When I encounter someone with the "little white dot", I type "Hello" as well as speak it. I let them decide how they prefer communication.

Either way its a tool thats there if needed. If not, you dont use it.

I have a large collection of wood working tools. Yet I dont need to use every single one on a project. I use what I need, when I need it. Then I bought a Dremel Tool. It has since replaced the need of several tools, being that it's easier to have 1 tool to do many things, than digging out several tools. With it, I can have a router, a drill, a saw, a sharpener, a grinder, a buffer, etc, etc.

Ok, one catch- the Dremel Tool works 99.99% of the time

You collect swords or guns. Does it mean you have to use them?

Does a homeowner buy a gun "for home protection" hoping to use it?

i understand this thread perfectly, usagi and some other ppl are having a pissing contest


go figure, never saw THAT one coming... since im being accused of sarcasm and all

Give up Rusty she never directly responds to just this issue. Just look my posts in this thread.

You didn't just diss my posts by saying they don't make sense did you? Now I've seen it all--hey pot, you're black!

Let us be clear about this please--there is nothing "uncaring" about my post. I am being truthful about our society, not uncaring to a set of individuals.

Just because a game company doesn't design a game for the hearing impaired, does not make ME uncaring...I'm just a messenger. And if everyone wants to discuss voice and flame each other without ever bringing to the table the facts that I have...well then, I'm sorry...but this does not stop me from speaking the truth.

Ok, so I'm also "unprofessional"...hmmm...OK, I'm not sure why. Why am I unprofessional Usagi? Because I brought up the fact that business doesn't care about a super small demographic when designing their products which are meant to profit?

I'm uncaring and unprofessional I guess. Sorry, from now on I'll just sit on the fence and smile, nodding my head at everything said on either side. Thank you Usagi for showing me the errors of my ways. Excuse me while I meditate on that for a while.

How does your profession enter into this anyway? You are responding as an SL Resident, I thought, not in some professional capacity. I can't even pile on you as "Uncaring" in this instance. Even "Insensitive" would be a stretch........