Forum Facelift
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Isablan Neva
Mystic
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 2,907
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04-02-2008 08:16
From: Colette Meiji This is a very pessimistic view on the entire idea of having forums really. No, not at all. What I was responding to was Solanghe's assertion that LL should basically be one with the drama and let it roll because it's "fun." I'm not against a GD on principal - what I am against is a loosely moderated flame fest dominated by a group of regulars locked in a perpetual "land war in Asia" with an anti-clique group. I've been an admin/moderator for 8 years - when I take off my participant hat and put on my moderator hat I do indeed see a clique of sometimes obnoxious people who band together in bad behavior. I've participated in it myself, so I'm no candidate for sainthood. The whole Jig Chippewa thing wasn't an isolated incident. I can't say whether or not she was troll before she got here and received that lovely reception or if we turned her into a troll, but the whole thing reflected badly on a group of people who like to think of themselves as "helpful." When you take a step back it looks an awful lot like a Jr. High School lunchroom and a new kid in class being tormented by the the cool kids. As a participant, I didn't see it. When I put on a different hat and step back, it is clear as day and something I'd have been nailing people to the wall for on my own forums. Forums do not *have* to be drama filled exchanges, that only happens when there is limited or bad moderation in place (or a moderator who enjoys the drama, as also happens.) An un-moderated forum will always turn into flame-fest because certain people will rise to dominant positions and lead the way, those who are followers will go right along and join in. My point is, and has always been, that unless LL is prepared for active 24-7 serious moderation, a re-opened General Discussion forum will turn into the exact same toxic waste collection that they closed in 2006 because it became too much of a liability.
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Stephen Wisent
Registered User
Join date: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 95
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04-02-2008 08:18
I agree with most of the suggestions made so far, and it's good to see that for the most part everyone is being constructive.
This is obviously where I spoil all of that.
I think that a resident rating system (I think on some boards it's called a "respect" system) would work wonders.
Cap the number of posts a person can make per day based on some form of peer rating level. So the more helpful and useful your peers perceive your contribution, the higher your available cap.
This would do away with the silly pursuit of arbitary posting "milestones" and actually place a premium on quality not quantity.
I'm sorry if this upsets anyone, but I see posting levels of 3, 4 and 5 thousand reached in months.. average daily postings in excess of 10 and I think, how valuable can these really be.. and how necessary.
I know this hampers the social aspect of the boards, but it seems to me there are many other venues open to people simply looking for somewhere to hang out with friends when SL isn't available.
As I say, sorry if I've offended anyone.
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Chaz Longstaff
Registered User
Join date: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 685
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04-02-2008 08:19
From: Ann Launay They both create problems, generally quite purposefully...perhaps not on the campers' part, but on that of the person who puts out 15 or 20 camping chairs to game traffic. That is your opinion. I happen to agree with you, nevertheless we must distinguish between what is allowed, however much we dislike it, and what is disallowed. As long is camping is still allowed, it does not fall under the category of disallowed. For instance, I am uncertain what to think about prositution, but in the meantime, I think Amsterdam in RL has the right solution: tax it, create an area for it. |
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Ann Launay
Neko-licious™
Join date: 8 Aug 2006
Posts: 7,893
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04-02-2008 08:30
This isn't the time or place for an extended debate about camping but, suffice it to say, I sincerely hope Katt and Robin will not take that particular suggestion.
_____________________
~Now Trout Re-Re-Re-Certified!~ From: someone I am bumping you to an 8.5 on the Official Trout Measuring Instrument of Sluttiness. You are an enigma - on the one hand a sweet, gentle, intelligent woman who we would like to wrap up in our arms and protect, and on the other, a temptress to whom we would like to do all sorts of unmentionable things.
Congratulations and shame on you! You are a bit of a slut.
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Nika Talaj
now you see her ...
Join date: 2 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,449
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04-02-2008 08:32
From: Stephen Wisent I think that a resident rating system (I think on some boards it's called a "respect" system) would work wonders.
Cap the number of posts a person can make per day based on some form of peer rating level. So the more helpful and useful your peers perceive your contribution, the higher your available cap. We've talked a lot in this thread, and many others, about the moderation needed. This post points to a different requirement for the Lindens -- that of ongoing *administration* of vBulletin, so that new features like that which Stephen suggests could be explored. It's pretty clear that one big upgrade needs to be made, getting us better security, BBcode, and restructuring the forums. After that, someone with vBulletin admin expertise will need to occasionally spend some time making use of new features, installing patches, etc.. This is not a full-time job, but LL should have someone with vBulletin experience who can spend a few hours now and then tweaking. [And, while we're on new-feature enhancements, we can haz laugh and agree buttons like SLU?]  |
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Chaz Longstaff
Registered User
Join date: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 685
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04-02-2008 08:35
From: Ann Launay This isn't the time or place for an extended debate about camping but, suffice it to say, I sincerely hope Katt and Robin will not take that particular suggestion. I sincerely hope they in fact will take the suggestion to make a camping forum. But you're right, enough about camping. |
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Oryx Tempel
Registered User
Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
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04-02-2008 08:36
I'd like to second Ann's rejection of the camping forum idea. Inworld groups already exist for campers; join those if you want to learn about camping.
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Oryx Tempel
Registered User
Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
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Nika's Structure
04-02-2008 08:41
Here, for those who haven't read the other Forum structure thread mentioned a few pages back, is the structure that a bunch of people came up with back in January. I'm quoting directly from Nika's post over in that thread: From: Nika Talaj
I think this version of Isablan's fabulous structure incorporates the recommended changes. However, I have some questions/observations at the bottom of this post. We NEED feedback on the questions, so please do read them and post.
Thank much, this has been a great effort so far!!
*Resident Support Forums*
Resident Answers
Troubleshooting
Animation Tips
Building Tips
Businesses In-world
Events Tips
Movies & Machinima
Scripting Library
Scripting Tips
Sculptie Tips
SL Games
Texturing Tips
*Technical*
Mac Discussion
Linux Discussion
First Look Viewer Feedback
Beta Grid Feedback
Current Version Feedback
Feature Suggestions
*Linden Website Links*
Blog Discussion (linked to directly from Blog)
Known Issues
JIRA (links first to Wiki and then to JIRA)
Support Information
*Resident Information*
Gallery
Real Life Meet-ups & Events
Resident Run Websites
Resident Sites & Blogs
SL Volunteers & Education
Classifieds
(as is)
International Forums
(as is)
Archives
(as is)
Questions:
1. Did not add a Roleplay forum; didn't hear much support for it, and I think folks will tend to ask about it in Resident Answers anyway
2. Renamed "Technical Answers" to "Troubleshooting". Better or worse?
3. Restored "Tips" after all the content fora names. The participants in those forums need to be able to steer animation 'product wanteds' or product advertising to the corrent subforums.
4. Cristalle, I heard you about putting the content fora ahead of RA and Troubleshooting/Technical Answers, but I did not see broad support for that idea. Frankly, I also think this structure is more useful to newbies, though you are right, we will still be redirecting people.
5. Renamed the "Information Forum* section to "Linden Website Links* and moved it far down the list. Everything in this section links directly to other parts of the website.
6. In "Linden Website Links", what is in "Support Information"? If no one can answer this, I'll remove it.
7. Also, is the "Known Issues" section useful to people?
8. I didn't follow up on the suggestion about restoring the "Groups" section because I don't really know what they were, and how they would work. If folks could explain that, it would be a blessing.
9. I didn't follow up on my own idea for an "Open Source Developers" forum, because it appears that they don't feel the need for one.
Also, be aware that Qie and I will not be recommending yet the return of a General Discussion forum. I could be wrong, but as I read Linden vibes, that would jeopardize the chances of getting anything else done. We'd like to get some moderators in place for when Aki leaves, some improvements to forum structure and policies, and a decent working relationship with LL. Then, once some trust is built, we can tackle harder issues.
Some other general recommendations were made in this thread about forum improvements -- e.g. upgrading software, moderation policy, etc.. I've made note of these - most of them were in the initial proposal to LL -- but I suggest we confine discussion in this thread to the forum structure, so we can quickly wrap that up.
Thanks much all!
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Ann Launay
Neko-licious™
Join date: 8 Aug 2006
Posts: 7,893
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04-02-2008 08:43
From: Stephen Wisent
Cap the number of posts a person can make per day based on some form of peer rating level. So the more helpful and useful your peers perceive your contribution, the higher your available cap.
So if certain people didn't like me personally and rated me badly, I wouldn't be able to utilize my knowledge and experience to help other Residents out as much as I might otherwise? That seems...questionable, to say the least. From: someone This would do away with the silly pursuit of arbitary posting "milestones"
Who does that? It's fun to hit those milestones, but I've only seen a few cases of people striving for a certain number and, even then, they're generally already within a few posts of it anyway. You know, I hit 4K recently, and I didn't even notice until I was 30-odd posts past it. *shrug*
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~Now Trout Re-Re-Re-Certified!~ From: someone I am bumping you to an 8.5 on the Official Trout Measuring Instrument of Sluttiness. You are an enigma - on the one hand a sweet, gentle, intelligent woman who we would like to wrap up in our arms and protect, and on the other, a temptress to whom we would like to do all sorts of unmentionable things.
Congratulations and shame on you! You are a bit of a slut.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
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04-02-2008 08:44
From: Stephen Wisent I agree with most of the suggestions made so far, and it's good to see that for the most part everyone is being constructive.
This is obviously where I spoil all of that.
I think that a resident rating system (I think on some boards it's called a "respect" system) would work wonders.
Cap the number of posts a person can make per day based on some form of peer rating level. So the more helpful and useful your peers perceive your contribution, the higher your available cap.
This would do away with the silly pursuit of arbitary posting "milestones" and actually place a premium on quality not quantity.
I'm sorry if this upsets anyone, but I see posting levels of 3, 4 and 5 thousand reached in months.. average daily postings in excess of 10 and I think, how valuable can these really be.. and how necessary.
I know this hampers the social aspect of the boards, but it seems to me there are many other venues open to people simply looking for somewhere to hang out with friends when SL isn't available.
As I say, sorry if I've offended anyone. Any "rep" system I have ever seen is nothing more than a thinly disguised griefing tool. Most of us here pay to be in SL, we pay for the support of these Forums. There is no reason we should go elsewhere or have our postings limited.
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I'm going to pick a fight
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“Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind”
Douglas MacArthur
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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04-02-2008 08:50
From: Chris Norse Any "rep" system I have ever seen is nothing more than a thinly disguised griefing tool. Most of us here pay to be in SL, we pay for the support of these Forums. There is no reason we should go elsewhere or have our postings limited. What I want to know is -- who the heck actually brags about their post count on these forums? I read as many posts here as anyone .. and I simply don't see it. There are no milestones, no one really cares. Most often Post Count is a detriment since people use it in ad hominem accusations when they disagree with you. The ever popular "You post too much, you must not have a life" The only other time post counts matter is when they are very low .. In the case of welcoming newcomers. Or realizing that someone's only posts are trolling. |
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Stephen Wisent
Registered User
Join date: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 95
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04-02-2008 08:59
Well that's three in a row.. I'm thinking there's another two at least online who'll come charging in any moment |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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04-02-2008 09:02
From: Stephen Wisent Well that's three in a row.. I'm thinking there's another two at least online who'll come charging in any moment Perhaps if you could back up your assertion about Postcounts with some relevant examples in threads on these forums it would make more sense. |
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Ann Launay
Neko-licious™
Join date: 8 Aug 2006
Posts: 7,893
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04-02-2008 09:03
From: Stephen Wisent Well that's three in a row.. I'm thinking there's another two at least online who'll come charging in any moment 
_____________________
~Now Trout Re-Re-Re-Certified!~ From: someone I am bumping you to an 8.5 on the Official Trout Measuring Instrument of Sluttiness. You are an enigma - on the one hand a sweet, gentle, intelligent woman who we would like to wrap up in our arms and protect, and on the other, a temptress to whom we would like to do all sorts of unmentionable things.
Congratulations and shame on you! You are a bit of a slut.
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Stephen Wisent
Registered User
Join date: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 95
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04-02-2008 09:08
Sorry Colette, but it was funny .. the predictability of it all To be honest it was just an idea, particularly if LL want to keep RA as RA. I actually think that such a facility would only be valuable in Forums with a specific purpose. If there was a GD forum then obviously there would be no point applying the Rep Cap thing there. PS Sorry I missed what you said about providing relevant examples. I'm not sure what you mean, but when I look at the recent posting histories of people who post a lot, I have to go a long way back before I actually find an answer to a question. As I said, I'm not saying anything against that, just that perhaps an automated method by which peers help control off topic posting within the RA forum might help reduce dependency on manual moderation. |
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Isabeau Imako
P'tite Poulette
Join date: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 2,335
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04-02-2008 09:11
Maybe a 'rep' system with only a positive 'vote' ? So if an answer was particularly helpful, you would be able to give it a thumbs-up. Not sure what that would do for reducing the negative posters, but if a newbie (or anyone for that matter) received a nasty or unhelpful answer, one look at the lack of thumbs-up might make it sting less. i.e. easier to ignore.
It would certainly mean more than the 'number' of posts one has. A bit along the lines of what you see on Yahoo! Answers. It would also give a 'voice' to those who prefer to lurk...
Maybe too complicated?
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Stephen Wisent
Registered User
Join date: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 95
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04-02-2008 09:15
From: Isabeau Imako Maybe a 'rep' system with only a positive 'vote' ? So if an answer was particularly helpful, you would be able to give it a thumbs-up. Not sure what that would do for reducing the negative posters, but if a newbie (or anyone for that matter) received a nasty or unhelpful answer, one look at the lack of thumbs-up might make it sting less. i.e. easier to ignore.
It would certainly mean more than the 'number' of posts one has. A bit along the lines of what you see on Yahoo! Answers. It would also give a 'voice' to those who prefer to lurk...
Maybe too complicated? That's the line I was thinking along Isabeau, maybe I did go to far with the "posting cap" idea Either way, it was just an idea and unlikely to be implemented because I think it would need some functional changes to the software itself. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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04-02-2008 09:20
From: Isabeau Imako Maybe a 'rep' system with only a positive 'vote' ? So if an answer was particularly helpful, you would be able to give it a thumbs-up. Not sure what that would do for reducing the negative posters, but if a newbie (or anyone for that matter) received a nasty or unhelpful answer, one look at the lack of thumbs-up might make it sting less. i.e. easier to ignore.
It would certainly mean more than the 'number' of posts one has. A bit along the lines of what you see on Yahoo! Answers. It would also give a 'voice' to those who prefer to lurk...
Maybe too complicated? It would be pretty ironic to have a Forums rep system when the In-world Rep System was scrapped. I don't see how a system like that could work without being gamed in some way considering the environment. -------------- Limiting Posts per day would "work", since thats totally impartial. But It would also do a lot to suck the life out of the forums by hampering the community. So if the goal is a hampered community it would be effective. -------------- If the real goal is to keep Resident Answers "General discussion Free" then rename it Resident Help and only allow people who have a semi-moderator status be allowed to respond to thread starters. |
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Isabeau Imako
P'tite Poulette
Join date: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 2,335
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04-02-2008 09:24
It would also make me kind of sad if no one ever gave me a thumbs-up. I'd feel like a total loser, lol.  |
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Stephen Wisent
Registered User
Join date: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 95
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I'm not sure if it'll help.. but here you go anyway ................
04-02-2008 09:26
From: Isabeau Imako It would also make me kind of sad if no one ever gave me a thumbs-up. I'd feel like a total loser, lol. . |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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04-02-2008 09:27
From: Isabeau Imako It would also make me kind of sad if no one ever gave me a thumbs-up. I'd feel like a total loser, lol. hehe |
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Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 7,145
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04-02-2008 09:29
From: Nika Talaj *Technical* Mac Discussion Linux Discussion First Look Viewer Feedback Beta Grid Feedback Current Version Feedback Feature SuggestionsQUOTE] Release Client Discussion Second Life Grid Discussion From: someone 1. Did not add a Roleplay forum; didn't hear much support for it, and I think folks will tend to ask about it in Resident Answers anyway I'd love to see one here. From: Colette Meiji What I want to know is -- who the heck actually brags about their post count on these forums?
I read as many posts here as anyone .. and I simply don't see it. I believe one member has recently been keeping an every-50 milestone list in his sig line, with dates and stuff. Perhaps this is what is being referred to? Mari
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  "There's nothing objectionable nor illegal in having a child-like avatar in itself and we must assume innocence until proof of the contrary." - Lewis PR Linden "If you find children offensive, you're gonna have trouble in this world " - Prospero Linden
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Ann Launay
Neko-licious™
Join date: 8 Aug 2006
Posts: 7,893
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04-02-2008 09:35
From: Marianne McCann
I believe one member has recently been keeping an every-50 milestone list in his sig line, with dates and stuff. Perhaps this is what is being referred to?
Maybe, but that's just one person and I don't get the impression he's padding his post count...just recording the numbers when he gets there.
_____________________
~Now Trout Re-Re-Re-Certified!~ From: someone I am bumping you to an 8.5 on the Official Trout Measuring Instrument of Sluttiness. You are an enigma - on the one hand a sweet, gentle, intelligent woman who we would like to wrap up in our arms and protect, and on the other, a temptress to whom we would like to do all sorts of unmentionable things.
Congratulations and shame on you! You are a bit of a slut.
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Kalderi Tomsen
Nomad Extraordinaire!
Join date: 10 May 2007
Posts: 888
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04-02-2008 09:38
My suggestions, some of which echo other son here (if not all!)
1. Definitely have an area where residents can help residents with their issues, but police it, so that threads stay on-topic. Once a question has been answered fully, lock it. nearly every thread in there meanders off-topic with forum in-jokes and I end up reading pages and pages of drivel just to see if there is some nugget in there that is useful.
2. Have a "rant" area where people can let off steam. We have seen in the blog comments how people get frustrated when they don't have the opportunity to do this.
3. Have one area that some Lindens look at. Make the scope VERY narrow and police it (so that it doesn't just become an almighty bitch-fest). Give people SOME way to contact Lindens when not in-world that doesn't involved a support ticket.
4. Make the forums readable (but no posting) to a wider audience.
5. Enable some code, especially the one that makes links "live" - if generic web links can't be enabled for some reason, at least allow SLURLs to be added and "live".
6. Get rid of the comments on the official blog and direct people to a thread here for each article. The blogs are dominated by "why don't you fix MY problem" off-topic whining - let them do it here, if they have to.
7. Get the Lindens (staff, not money) back into the forums in some form. No, don't waste time responding to the whiners, but there are some excellent points brought up here that it would be great to know that LL at least acknowledged. Sometimes a "we know of the problem and are working on it" will just keep people quiet.
An example: the outrage at the broken Friends list web page which has been broken for weeks and I have seen no LL response on what is being done with it, even to acknowledge that there is a problem.
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Kalderi, General Manager, Hosoi Ichiba and Hosoi Design
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Hosoi Ichiba - High Quality Classically-styled Asian buildings, furniture and home decorations in an old-fashioned Japanese market garden on Japan Kanto. http://hosoi-ichiba.blogspot.com/
Hosoi Design - High Quality prefabs and furnishings, plus commercial buildings.
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Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 7,145
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04-02-2008 09:53
From: Kalderi Tomsen 2. Have a "rant" area where people can let off steam. We have seen in the blog comments how people get frustrated when they don't have the opportunity to do this.
3. Have one area that some Lindens look at. Make the scope VERY narrow and police it (so that it doesn't just become an almighty bitch-fest). Give people SOME way to contact Lindens when not in-world that doesn't involved a support ticket. The more I think about it, the more I realize how important these could be, ya know? 2. The problem I see is people using this as "Don't buy from BubbaBoBob Brain, he'll steal your lindens!" type posts. I also wonder if it will simply lead to more frustration from those ranting, as they might feel that their rants were not being heard (which would be true, I suspect!) 3. Along the lines of the office hours perhaps. Somewhat informal? Obviously, I suspect many will still have to be told "go to support and put in a ticket," but some questions I suspect, can be very quickly answered without too much trouble. Mari
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"There's nothing objectionable nor illegal in having a child-like avatar in itself and we must assume innocence until proof of the contrary." - Lewis PR Linden "If you find children offensive, you're gonna have trouble in this world " - Prospero Linden
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