What *IS* a "land baron"?

"Land Baron" to me is negative term, therefore by definition (to me at least) it means someone who's engaged in buying and selling land who has no sense of ethics - someone who believes "the end (making money) justifies the means (whatever it takes to get rich)". I have no problem with people buying and selling land for a profit. This is capitalism. It only becomes nefarious when people seek a profit "whatever the ethical, moral or social cost," which they'd typically see as "not their problem." In SL terms, it's someone who does not care how their behaviour may hurt or harm others in SL.

Land Barons to me are people who take advantage of newbies, people who try to intimidate people into leaving their land by putting up massive signs next to them (exploiting the lack of legislation in SL for their own ends), or the people who exploited the First Land system for personal profit. I'm not talking people who bought a single premium account, got land and perhaps sold it. But people who registered multiple alt accounts or used bots to buy several First Land plots the instant it became available in order to sell on for a profit, and simultaneously denying legitimate users the chance to get their "first foot on the SL property ladder."

Clearly, the purpose of First Land in SL was somewhat similar to many government's First Time Buyers schemes. Where house prices have become unaffordable for the typical starting family, the government steps in to provide affordable, discounted or part-ownership schemes to ease them onto the property ladder. Fortunately, in real life, exploiting this scheme is much harder. In SL, LL was relying on trust and a sense of ethics to ensure the scheme worked as intended. Where LL failed is in choosing the "libertarian" way of solving the problem versus a more "socialist" approach: close the scheme, rather than regulating it to ensure it works properly.

What I don't like is those who earn their money in dishonest ways, or who exploit the lack of legislation in SL to do things that would be considered unacceptable in the "real world". These are the true "Land Barons."

I do not think honest traders in land, people who harm nobody in the process, deserve the label "Land Baron." It matters not if they own 512m or 1 million metres of land. If their goal is to make money, but they know when they're crossing the ethical line and do not cross it, then I wish them all well and much success in business, as they've played fair, and earned their money honestly. Indeed, I tip my hat to them!

I agree it is silly to get down on people for their choice of business (Jackson went more into this in his full post above) however I don't think anyone is doing that here... what people are doing is complaining about people who have absolutely no business ethics and abuse the market.

I know what supply and demand is and I think that 3/m or even 5/m was a pipe dream however what I'm seeing just for a 512 piece is a minimum price of 14/m for big pieces and as high as 20/m for some smaller pieces and that just isn't fair nor is it a stable market price. I'm not going to address this to anyone in particiular but those of you who are engaging in this business I hope you get stuck with a whole bunch of unsellable land and have to pull out permanently so there's more room for the ethical sellers. Those who are selling ethically at the fair market price (I figure the stable price will be somewhere between 10/m and 12/m for non specialty plots (specialty being directly on protected waterway or similar)) you know who you are and keep up the good work.




You just described about 99% of "land traders" in Second Life, I'll admit that I have run across a few that were great people and trade(d) land ethically however at least several of them have told me that they had to give it up since they couldn't compete against the unethical traders... and I know everyone is going to say that's how business works and that's tough and all that but these were people that did this job and did it well but lost out to unscrupulous land barons.






That's actually a very accurate definition in my opinion, can I quote that?




Another downfall in any web based venture whether it be web 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 is the lack of responsibility and variablity which ironically also one of it's major upsides though of course there's always going to be unethical people and overall good people who make mistakes by behaving unethically (that sign guy in an earlier post as an example) and LL seems to prove every day how they lack foresight into that.




Legislation would hurt their numbers and is probably unworkable



again, I agree unequivocally with the above statement.

Ugh... this is like the tobacco companies funding anti smoking ads so they can say yeah we care about the comman man and his problems while still killing them.

If they weren't afraid of the noise getting so loud that it would have forced LL to act I honestly doubt any of the land barons would have said a word but now that they have the bruhaha has died down and while they're still resented for years to come they can link to that post to their credit, well don't expect us to buy it.

Wilhelm's simplistic definitions of land barons

some guy who has a lot of land that he bought and is selling it or renting it and who may or may not be ethical but never-the-less he has a lot of land

I did read through that entire thread and found one comment critizing - real - people who buy/flip land that was obviously mispriced, so in that sense, it did have one. I didn't see a mass of land traders speak out against the bot though, mostly in defense of it (or its right to exist anyway).
(Then again, I didn't look up anyone's profile, I just looked for names that were/are familiar to me so that could be the cause of it as well)

The difference is that you sought one out. You sold at below market rate and (s)he sold at market rate and that's where their profit came from. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Actively seeking out all the bottom-priced parcels and repricing them up is a whole different thing though. If people systematically reprice the low end up, you're not going by market price, you're forcefully pushing it upward with each flip.

Using the auction system that really is possible assuming that the price you get at auction is less than total market price you can essentially get it all at wholesale and sell it at market price for what is essentially an unreasonable profit. Now making a profit is not a bad thing, actually quite the opposite however say that you buy at auction at the equivalent of 5/m (just an easy number to do calculations with, don't take that as a literal number) and the current price is 15/m, now people who are just selling their plots have no real choice but to sell for roughly what the market price is otherwise they'll massively lose out or just won't sell, however because you have a leg up you could sell it for 10/m and still make a 5/m profit which automatically makes essentially anyone without a sim size piece or a piece they bought at a much much cheaper price and held onto until the price went up (considering tier that's implausable) and then has to sell it at market price.


Now the above is not really the sellers fault, nor is it really LL's fault (though partially it is on how they setup the land system and essentially laid out the land economy subset of the overall economy) It also happens in real life to a certain extent and I honestly don't see a solution to that but I think (assuming I got my basic economics correct) one of the reasons that complain or not big sellers dominate the market over smaller sellers and are able to get away with what they do.

postnote: because I did my posts somewhat fragmented if you want to see the rest of what I replied it's on Page 2 of the replies since my stuff got spread between pages 2 and 3

Gordon Wendt hands everyone an Aspirin to deal with the impending headaches

post post note: feel free to let me know if I got the economics wrong, I neither am nor do I pretend to be an expert in economics, doubly so for the economics of land markets, triply so for the economics of virtual land markets.

Simple. Someone who buys as MUCH land as they can possibly afford, whole sims as they come online if possible, hopefully to corner, as much as possible, the land market, at prices that work out as very roughly $10 per m2, then carve it up and sell it at up to $20 per m2 or more.

Land Barons are the FIRST to complain when LL releases large numbers of sims to the market as that dilutes the market and lowers prices. Land Barons are the ones who would prefer that LL stop releaseing mainland sims altogether.

would you say im a bad person for that?

Yes.

You are contributing to the uglification of Second Life. You're standing out there in the public park, urinating. Sure, you're just urinating on a wee corner of it, but you are doing it nonetheless.

Just because others are bigger offenders doesn't mean that you aren't contributing to the urban blight problem.

-Rob

Point is, dont hate the player, hate the game

So if somebody shoots me... do I hate the guy who shot me, or do I hate the laws of Physics for making it possible?

please show me land traders who stand up and protest the behaviour of their peers instead of cheering each other on

Take a look at Sarah Nerd's profile sometime.

She does a lot of land buying and selling... and I saw her bitching about people who chop up land to 16sqm plots in her profile.

You're blaming and condemning a wide group of people for the antisocial behavior of a subset of that group.

Why? The traders can't do it indefinately. When the price gets too high they'll lose money, potentially a lot of money. If someone has set land for sale below market rate, it's because they either haven't researched the market first, or they want a quick sale. If they want a quick sale, the trader gives it to them. If they didn't research the market, they're going to lose out whatever happens.

There are also those that buy corner lots in 4 sims so they can buid a "concert" tower on the junction all 4 so they can have 160 people at an event and none of the 4 sims can be completely owned, but then never use the tower and ignore requests to use it and all offers for their land.

Posi-what now? Help me out, here.

hmm, furries, goreans, members of specific SL groups, sl-lib members... forgive me if I forgot a few but welcome to second life where everyone gangs up on specific groups for the action of a small subset of that group.

Serious land traders do not appreciate those who carve plots into 16m squares to sell.

It devalues the real plots they are trying to sell when there is one (or a bunch) of those next to them.

Actually, that behavior isn't unique to second life

The gays/republicans/communists/news media/foreigners/immigrants/christians/liberal elite/SUV owners/hunters/vegetarians/teenagers/white people/women who vote/dog people/cat people/police/rock musicians/astronomers are responsible for ALL of the worlds ills, after all.

Ok here's my thoughts on a few of the things I've read in this post....

All decent land dealers have nothing to do with those nasty ad lots and spam plots. It makes absolutly no sense to destroy the product we deal in. Me and many of the dealers I know donate those plots when we come across them very cheap to arbor project who holds them until they can be rejoined to larger usable parcels.

Yes land used to be cheaper. When I started dealing land I was buying at 2.9 3L a meter. Also when I started land, we were lucky if 2 or 3 thousand people were online at any given time, not like weekends now where we see 30,000 residents on. And when land was that low there were still land dealers and barrons only I don't remember people having such a negative feeling twords them. Prices are up and people are just looking for someone to blame. Your barking up the wrong tree, it's all a matter of supply & demand.

Why is buying from an auction better than buying from residents? I do both and pay about the same either way. When people need to sell a half sim before they tier again they know I am pretty fair and appreciate the service I offer that works out for the both of us. And when it comes down to it, thats who's business it is. Mine and the sellers. Who are you to think you have a say in how people decide to handle there land that they paid for?

And last, I'm proud to consider myself a land baroness. I feel I worked very hard to build upto a level where I would consider myself one. I put in way more hours than a regular full time job (60+ hours a week) and worked a very long time to build my reputation and holdings. I feel I am fair in my prices and offer a service. Why you guys are on here bitching about people like me, I'm in sl working hard bettering my business.

So go ahead and try to belittle me now to feel better about yourself, because I will remain proud of what I do and my accomplishments.

I know whenever I've had the pleasure of buying off you Sarah, it's been a real treat. You're always polite and professional. I couldn't imagine anyone having a problem with the way you do business... And to think you're that nice while putting in 60+ hours Way to go!

Thank You Reece! It's always been a pleasure working with you as well!

If I learned anything from my stint working (RL) retail it's that someone will always be outraged that someone, somewhere is making a profit. Especially if that profit is visible as is most often the case with SL land sales.

Sarah> How does one find the parcels you have for sale? I may be interested in a commercial plot within the next few weeks.

Sounds like you two ought to get together. How long we before we hear the patter of tiny baronets?

My mainland is at www.sarahnerd.com My rentals are all filled currently filled, but thats always changing. Thank You for your truthful comments and interest in my propertys!

What makes SL soo cool is the same thing that makes it suck soo bad. Ive had a quarter sim that I have a little dance club and and a few cottages for rent for several months. Its a private sim I paid $200 US to aquire it and I pay the owner 75 US bucks a month rent, fair deal for me no problems. I paid a builder do some work about $150 dollars... I knew I was doing no big deal. I have know idea how many linden dollars Ive spent decorating and buying stuff but is been alot, do big deal. But in short I have alot of real life money, money that could be put to better use wrapped up in this, but no big deal its a hobby. Its all been worth it because of the experience to act like a business manager and the friends ive made. But now this person that has made a million dollars on here has bought this SIM, if out of the kindness of HER heart she lets me keep my land I will now be paying $133 bucks a month. So all that cash ive laid out and the work ive put in to my "hobby" as well as maybe my SL membership is out the window. Because a Millionire wants to make a few more bucks. Scrapbooking as a hooby is sounding better all the time. Well thats my rave with landbarrons

Sorry to hear that... Remember, the person to blame here is not the one who bought the sim -- it's the one who sold it. Secondly, if you're speaking of the person I believe you are, I'm not too sure how your tier amounted to $133/month as that's not a rate she charges.