Illegal Internet Gambling & SL

Well, as some of you have probably heard, President Bush signed the new bill into law yesterday making gambling on the internet in the USA illegal. Already several CEOs of gambling sites have been arrested and several banks have already cut off access to transfer funds to gambling sites.

As SL is FULL of now illegal gamblers and casinos, it seems it is only a matter of time before PayPal and Mastercard cut off the possibility of transferring funds to and from SL. This also could place the Lindens at risk of arrest and prosecution if they allow gambling to take place in SL.

What do I predict? I think that LL will be forced to add a line to their TOS making gambling machines, casinos and gambling in general a violation. That will force casino owners to shut down and cash out, less people demanding L$ because of it and a 20-40% drop in the L$ value after LL announces this. If LL does not comply? I see PayPal cutting off payment access (as they already have started to do for many online casinos) and same with MasterCard (as they already have started to do). I also see legal action against LL, if nothing is done.

My question is this: What do you all, as SL citizens, think this newly enacted law will mean for SL in the future? And will we FINALLY get rid of all these casinos locking up sims by pedaling now illegal games (probably with fixed odds as there is no one to regulate them like in Las Vegas the have the gaming commission) and hundreds of camping chairs? How will this affect the SL economy and do you have any other comments on the issue? I guess this would be a bad time to setup a casino in world?

Thanks!

cant you search for this, its been posted millions of times, but anyhoo...heres the anwser.


you see, theres two reasons that it isnt affected by this law.

1) lindens arnt real. no no, the currency, not the people...LL states L$ r worthless, so, even though you can buy em, once you go tem, LL wont buy em off you. and nor is it anyone elses duty to do so. as they are NOT legal tender.

2) LL owns all. Thats right, LL state they own everything at the end of the day. So its thier problem to take care of the taxes and rates, BUT. this isnt REAL gambling anwyay, the same as playing poker with penuts, if you win, u feel good. and someone else who is hungry might buy a penut off you...

hope this helps

axel

Hey, thanks for the reply. People have posted about the issue, yet NOONE has posted since the law was signed into LAW. Maybe I missed them.

The argument of "L$ has no value" has already been debunked. It DOES have value, and if this argument of yours were valid, any idiot could set up a gambling site, tell you to send them your USD$ and then give you "chips" and say, "Now these are not worth anything remember" and let you gamble away. Then later you come back with your "worthless chips" and trade them on a FREAKING MARKET (the LindeX) right in front of the bank's and the Fed's face for USD? LOL.

That's fine if LL owns all, but it is still illegal. This only places more pressure on LL to ban gambling in their world, as all the illegal gambling would be "THEIR" illegal gambling.

I still STRONGLY feel that PayPal and other banks will cut off transfers to and from SL if LL does no comply with the new law. Is a billion dollar lawsuit and prison time worth it for Mastercard or PayPal to keep transferring to SL? Is breaking the law and risking having all access to transfer funds to and from SL worth it to LL? I don't think so. Guess we'll see.

They never said they were worthless. That would be stupid to say, obviously they are worth something, as they are traded actively.

LL has only said they will never buy Lindens, they have no redemption value.

Here's a major thread from yesterday discussing the issue:

/327/1d/143298/1.html

Signing it into law doesn't change the arguments. Search gambling and casino and you'll find several threads, some quite large about the issue.

Those old threads are just history now/ Sorry

They have said that, but it's not true.

Every LindeX transaction occurs with LL as one of the counterparties. When I buy L$, who am I paying in exchange for currency? I'm paying LL. When I sell L$, who takes L$ out of my account in exchange for cash? LL does. So, in spite of the language that says "Linden does not buy L$", they really do. That's the nature of having a central clearinghouse.

What they have said is that L$ have no *guaranteed* redemption value. That is, there is no fixed amount they will send you in exchange for your L$.

Players buy Linden Dollars from other players or Linden lab.

Linden Lab does not, and never has nor ever will buy Linden dollars. they have said so repeatedly.

therefore Linden dollars have no redemption value, and are legally speaking not legal tender.

as such, gambling in SL is legal because you are not gambling for legal tender.

the "sellign chips then buying them" doesn't work because the gambling establishment is redeaming the "chips" for legal tender, therby giving the "chips" a legal value. Since Linden labs does not buy "chips" the chips do not have legal value.

I strongly suggest that you read the thread I posted above.


To be subject to the provisions of the new Internet Gamblng Prohibiton Act it is not required that bets ar wagers be made with legal tender. All that is required is that the bets and wagers are made with "SOMETHING OF VALUE" which Lindens undeniably are.


The New Act defines bets and wagers as follows:

" (6) The term `bets or wagers'--

`(A) means the staking or risking by any person OF SOMETHING OF VALUE upon the outcome of a contest of others, a sporting event, or a game predominantly subject to chance, upon an agreement or understanding that the person or another person will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome;"

Actually, players only buy L$ from Linden Lab. When I buy L$ on the LindeX, LL is the one charging my credit card and crediting my SL account with L$. Therefore, I'm buying L$ from them.


They have said that, but as I detailed above, it really isn't true. When you click the "Sell L$ Now" button, then L$ are taken from your SL account and replaced with US$. When you withdraw those US$, who is paying you? LL is. Therefore, LL gives you US$ in exchange for your L$. Is that not the definition of them buying L$?


You're half correct. "Legal tender" means a currency must be accepted for the discharge of all debts. In the U.S., only US$ are legal tender. Gambling, however, is definied as being in exchange for currency or anything representative of value. Which L$ are. Ergo, gambling in SL is illegal. Full Stop. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. And anyone who tries to claim otherwise is simply wrong.


My car isn't legal tender. Are you suggesting I could open a casino in which patrons placed bets using their cars and everything would be A-OK? Absurd!

CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING:

Big Time Internet Gambling Casino temporarily closes its website cuz of the new Internet Gambling Prohibition Act.

Mr. Big, Big Time's President's son shows him his AV in SL and shows him some of the "Most Popular Places", i.e., casinos and brothels.

Mr Big's greedy-greedy brain starts churning.

The next day Mr Big contacts Anshechung.com and outside the boundries of SL directly negotiates the purchase of all of Anshechung's land holdings. Also included in the deal is the purchase by Mr Big of 10 million Lindens to be supplied by Anshechung with a commitment to supply additional large quantities of Lindens monthly.

Mr Big's son is directed to head-up an SL in-game construction effort that will configure casinos on the lands in such a way that Mr Big's SL casinos as a group will have a capacity of 1,000 residents.

The next week after all of the gamng machines are installed, Big Time Casino reopens its website and announces the resumption of on-line gambling 24/7. The new system of gaming will require that Big Time Casino, as part of its mebership application process, obtain SL accounts for the new Big Time Members. SL usernames and passswords will now serve as entree into the Big Time website which will automatically sign the user into Second Life and teleport him/her to a Big Time SL casino with available capacity.

Big Time Casino as a service to its customers sells Lindens to its on-line customers at slightly below the current market rate. The minimum wager in the SL Big Time Casinos is adjusted to the equivalent of $5.00 US.

The Big Time online Casinos are a huge financial sucess attracting many new customers who are thrilled by not only being able to gamble in a huge variety of games, including horseracing, but also are delighted by the addition of on-line sex to the mix.

NOW TELL ME THAT BIG TIME WOULD BE ABLE TO CIRCUMVENT THE LAW BY ENGAGING IN THIS SCHEME.

AND IF ITS ILLEGAL FOR BIG TIME ITS ILLEGAL FOR EVERYONE ELSE.

NWA said it best, "FUCK THA POLICE"
It's illegal, but what's the government going to do? LL has safe harbor as a service provider, all they have to do is shut down a few casinos once in awhile, and they'll be fine.

Well even if LL is safe, which it is not a cut and dry case, what about the operators of the individual casinos in SL - The ones who are illegaly accepting the bets over interstate communications facilties and reaping the profits from that?

BTW Who TF is NWA?

FWIW: I hear there is a new Gesture just been put on the market. Its an attachment that looks like a poker chip,

When activated, your AV pulls out a megaphone and yells :"THIS IS THE FBI! YOU ARE ALL UNDER ARREST. LADIES! TAKE OFF ALL OF YOUR CLOTHES AND SHOW US WHAT YOUR HIDING!"

Err... if it doesn't already exist offshore (meaning, outside of US jurisdiction) it would most likely move.



And his brain churns out, "Wow, this software is really hard to use. Sure am glad we have our customers download our own client software."



The individual parcels still have to be transferred in-world from seller to buyer. And in the event of a private island there's the additional paperwork of US$150 per for the transfer. L$10-million has a current exchange value of US$36,674.71 (about two-thirds to about one-half of the currency that passes through the LindeX on an average day).



So... 15-sims minimum (as private sims can max up to 70-persons). Not sure why BTC had to buy all of Anshe's private sims when BTC could've placed on order in the Land Store but I'm sure they'll figure out what to do with the remaining 185+ private sims. Also, it's unlikely that BTC would hit their 1000-resident capacity as that's between 10 to 20-percent of the in-world population on any given day.



Even if BTC wasn't offshore it's going to have a problem with keeping its SL-based casino open 24/7 thanks to chronic downtime on the part of LL. BTC can't acquire the memberships and then transfer them as according to the Terms of Service for SL accounts are non-transferrable. It's unlikely that LL would make an arrangement for new residents referred by BTC to skip Orientation Island or Help Island and go directly to the casino.



The minimum wager is L$1,360, which seems like a lot, psychologically, to the gambler. As BTC isn't the only game in town and other casinos, with small minimums, exist in world the gambler teleports elsewhere.



The customers are also delighted by griefing, lag, and a software client that takes about 30-days to learn how to use effectively.



Other than the fact that Big Time would most likely be an offshore company and thus outside of US jurisdiction _plus_ have its own interface for its customers it's highly unlikely they could earn more than chump change (when compared to other online casinos and gambling sites that exist outside of SL). There's no need for them to "circumvent" anything as they would most likely not engage in it.



It's only illegal for Big Time if they exist within the US. Last time I checked only 5-percent of the world's population lives in the US.

Not trying to beat you up... your hypothetical is overly complex and breaks down in a number of areas. Fundamentally, Second Life isn't really a destination for anything except people interested in being entertained within a MMO environment.

Haven't the time to talk to you about all of this right now but at least one point needs to be addressed.

The new Internet Gambling Prohibiton Act has a very long reach, though somewhat indirect.. Its most significant provisions forbid credit card companies and other financial institutions from being used to make payments to or from on-line gambling business. Because of this, offshore based internet gambling businesses everywhere have been rapidly shutting down their US operations ..

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9070-2403234,00.html


http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-fi-gaming14oct14,1,4819811.story?coll=la-headlines-technology

SIGH...................


The thing with casino chips, as thsat the casino is oblisged to buy them back off you as long as you have obtained them legally, when u "purchase" casino chips, they arnt yours, thier worth is yours. You dont won the chip, just the value of them, which the casino states.

Now with L$, they have no value, no predefined rate or market that LL buys them form you, because lindenlabs research doesnt buy L$ off you. its like buying penuts, only hungry ppl who likes penuts will buy it.

im about to give up explaining to people as im just repeating myself, i shall redirect them to other threads, but

plain and simple

USING A SCRIPTED CHANCE OBJECT IN SL IS NOT AGAISNT ANY LAW

NO LAWS AGAISNT IT

NOTHING

ZIP

SCAAADOOOEY!


love axel

xoxox

The New Law defines bets and wagers subject to the prohibitions of the act to include:


`(A).... taking or risking by any person of something of value UPON THE OUTCOME OF ... A GAME PREDOMINANTLY SUBJECT TO CHANCE, upon an agreement or understanding that the person or another person will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome;"

Under the act there is no difference between a slot machine apllette on an online casino's web site or a slot machine in SL.

Respecting the statement that Lindens have no value, I suppose then that the thousands of peeps paying hundreds of thoudands of US Dollars daily through the SL website, SL Exchange, or eBay are stark-raving lunatics. (Hmmmm: Now there's a straight line inviting a punch if I ever saw one. LOL)

There is an active market for lindens which constantly establishes its value as do the commodity markets establish the value of cattle, oil, natural gas, etc

It is not necessary that LL establish a value for the Linden. There is an open market for lindens and the value is established in the eye of the beholder.

Honestly dude, you have no clue what you're talking about.

Just curious but if LL will SELL $L's aren't they admiting that they have value and taking $US for said $L's?



I think you just killed your own argument. if the gambling establishment redeams chips for legal tender isn't that the same as LL selling $L's on the Lindex? They are accepting $US for $L's...sounds like admitting that they have value to me...

just curious and a little off topic, but when LL sells $L's on the lindex to "stabilize the economy" what do they do with that $US that they make from it?

clearly you made up your mind long before postng this thread, so why did you bother?

I can legally gamble using poker chips purchased at the store as long as at the end of the game the poker chips go back in the box and no money changes hands. I can also legally hold a garage sale and sell those chips later for a buck. does that make them "of value"? nope it doesn't they are still valueless.

Linden dollars are identical to those poker chips, and the lindex is nothing more then a garage sale with a third party "Linden Labs" running credit cards and handling the money. Linden labs isn't buying the Linden dollars, nor are they normally selling them, they are Brokering the exchange, nothing more.

try and rememebr the store that originally sold me the chips also charged me for them, this also does not make them "of value"

That makes no sense what so ever. So, you are saying that anyone can go set up a site and let people gamble by simply saying that they must agree that after you give them your USD$ it becomes "fake money" but you can then trade the money on a market for "real money" anytime? LOL. WRONG! The banks and courts would have a FIELDDAY with that one. The fact is, the risk toPayPal and other banks to keep letting people transfer USD to LL with all these questions, is just not worth it! PayPal was fined 10 million USD for doing this three years ago. There is no way they will let that happen again. Any question regarding gambling = no more transfers. Why risk it?

Their TOS is simply saying, that they can not be held liable if you lose your L$ because of a crash or if they shut down, etc. That does not mean that anything you illegally do with L$ is now legal. Talk about a money launderer's wett dream!

I was just kicking the tires on your hypothetical. I _liked_ your hypothetical. It simply breaks down for a number of reasons, that's all.

The law only works if it is enforced and it's highly unlikely that any gambling operation within SL would ever get the attention of US or state-level authorities due to the small size of such operations much in the same way that US authorities don't go around busting up kitchen poker games. The basis for the _new_ US law (prohibitions against online gambling have existed for a while) is that a variety of states would be much happier if the US$6-billion in question was sloshing around within various forms of legal gambling in the US (short form: US-based gambling industry lobbyists spent more on getting the legislation passed). With the impending loss of revenues from US-based gamblers the foreign-based online gambling operators will simply explore other markets.

L$ are worthless. That's the kicker. You can argue all day long that "they have value", but they do not. They have no more "value" than an unopened Luke Skywalker action figure from the first production run. Is that owrht something? Yes, if you can find someone to pay you for it. It is a collectable.

The L$ has no more value than monoply money. It is a "game piece" for all intense purposes. That others outside of Linden Lab applied a real world value to it, has not impact on it's intended use as an in-world only game-commodity. LL's statement of the L$ having no value stems back to the fact that L$ are only pixels and therefore have no substance, therefore, no value.

Now, if you doubt me, go ask your lawyer and get charged a good amount for his advice. Mayb eyou can try to pay him in L$.

~Jessy