I make real money in this virtual world, as do thousands of others. Calling it make believe and a fantasy doesn't change the fact that there is a growing number of people making real money in here.
When a scam artist steals a large sum of money in game, it should be everyone's concern, even if only to the degree where we can prevent this kind of thing from happening again.
Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive
These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE
Why is everyone mad at Ginko? |
|
|
Uvas Umarov
Phone Weasel Advocate
Join date: 8 Feb 2007
Posts: 622
|
08-04-2007 20:11
_____________________
"On the other hand, if you are convinced that I spent all the money on a new sports car, then getting even 2.5% instead of 0% back would be quite a deal, wouldn't it?" ---ginko bank owner on his financial dealings
|
|
Aleister Montgomery
Minding the gap
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 846
|
08-04-2007 20:16
WOW you are some peice of work man.... Tell the truth, your in the whole. You have no money. The casinos cashed out and now you don't know what to do. You think you can through around words like bank and such and not have any accountability. Funny for a word that you think does not matter you sure knew how to use it to take peoples money though right..................... Clown. Ok fine that all being said how do you plan to pay all these people back? Its a straight answer. Or for that matter do you plan to pay all these people back? Even that is a straight answer. He does not have crap and the little stuff he does have you really think he is going to give to you or anyone else he owes? He is going to cash out what he has and run for the hills. His rep is trashed in SL now so he's got nothing to loose at this point. Let me guess... "The checks in the mail" right? Why is everyone mad at Ginko? [...] You took a 50/50 chance when you dumped your money into this guys ATM machine. You have knowbody to blame but yourself. Sorry but its true. Reminds me of a song... "Go on take the money and run.." Hm... can't help it, but somehow one of the above quotes doesn't really match the others. What should it be? Manager bashing or customer bashing? Not that there's anything wrong with either stance, but doing both at the same time seems a bit indecisive. Almost like bashing for the cause of it. _____________________
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.
|
|
Mickey James
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2006
Posts: 334
|
08-04-2007 20:29
The whole Second Life thing is nothing but a game.........call it anything else and you are deluding yourself. Sure a few people make a living in the game........a very few. A few more make enough to play for "free".......again, just a few. Everyone else plays this game at their own expense...........in other words, it costs us real money to play. Even the basic accounts if they purchase anything at all. Everything we do, make, create, or experience is make believe. That includes "banking". Ginko was/is a make believe bank or "investment" company or whatever you want to call it. You put your money in and play at "investing" or 'saving" with interest. It's when you forget the fact you are playing a game and believe you are realling "making" money that you get burned. Not really. Yes, if you're like me and you might bring in L$400 or so a month in sales, then sure, it lessens my costs slightly and that's all. But for the small number of SL merchants who are bringing in thousands and thousands of L$, they ARE making significant money ... IF they do the smart thing and cash it out periodically. I do agree that anybody who deposited a significant amount of L$ into a questionable in-world "bank" rather than a proper bank, with regulations and FDIC insurance, should have known that that itself was a risk. And I agree that thinking SL is a likely place to make real money is foolish ... a few people do, but only a few. Still, you're talking as if L$ are like Monopoly money and that's just not the case. They are not real money, but the fact that they can be cashed out in exchange for real money means that losing a large number of them *is* losing real value. |
|
Daisy Rimbaud
Registered User
Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 764
|
08-05-2007 01:12
I am not rubbing their nose in anything ... Oh yes you are ... You should be pissed at yourself! ... I can not understand why all these people dumped their money into a fake bank ... I know a crack head down the street who would not even fall for that ... You have knowbody to blame but yourself. Sorry but its true. |
|
Saur Holt
http://forsakenhearts.blo
Join date: 18 May 2006
Posts: 803
|
LOL people make mistake
08-05-2007 02:47
I am not rubbing their nose in anything it just there is this big ass which hunt now when really its their own fault. And your right anything in SL can change at anytime. Its the chance you take but you should also know it going into it. I trusted i got burned i moved on. When i opened my business in SL i was told to keep my L in a bank. i learn my lesion. and yes people are going to rant, I know of 3 store that folded because they can not get to their L . so come on have a heart. every one make mistakes  _____________________
http://forsakenhearts.blogspot.com/
|
|
Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
|
08-05-2007 03:04
"1) Lindens intervene and shut Ginko down (never say never)"
This one will never happen "2) Nick call it a day and files for bankrupcy( last resort)" This one might if he is in deep problems As someone said before really must wait until the dust and fog clears to se what happans. If he really was a bad person he would have left sl by now taking all thats left from the bank........But really who know waht is what. |
|
Saur Holt
http://forsakenhearts.blo
Join date: 18 May 2006
Posts: 803
|
08-05-2007 03:05
Not really. Yes, if you're like me and you might bring in L$400 or so a month in sales, then sure, it lessens my costs slightly and that's all. But for the small number of SL merchants who are bringing in thousands and thousands of L$, they ARE making significant money ... IF they do the smart thing and cash it out periodically. I do agree that anybody who deposited a significant amount of L$ into a questionable in-world "bank" rather than a proper bank, with regulations and FDIC insurance, should have known that that itself was a risk. And I agree that thinking SL is a likely place to make real money is foolish ... a few people do, but only a few. Still, you're talking as if L$ are like Monopoly money and that's just not the case. They are not real money, but the fact that they can be cashed out in exchange for real money means that losing a large number of them *is* losing real value. I agree with some of what your saying. i know a lot of people who make a living in sl and some who have taken it to RL . I trusted my L to gink . lucky i cash out once a mouth so this is a pricey lesion life goes on _____________________
http://forsakenhearts.blogspot.com/
|
|
Saur Holt
http://forsakenhearts.blo
Join date: 18 May 2006
Posts: 803
|
08-05-2007 03:15
"1) Lindens intervene and shut Ginko down (never say never)" This one will never happen "2) Nick call it a day and files for bankrupcy( last resort)" This one might if he is in deep problems As someone said before really must wait until the dust and fog clears to se what happans. If he really was a bad person he would have left sl by now taking all thats left from the bank........But really who know waht is what. agree 100% besides can not take L out anyway _____________________
http://forsakenhearts.blogspot.com/
|
|
Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
|
08-05-2007 03:46
Hmm so all thes eggs go into a basket and one would assume the guy owning the basket has to pay for the basket and his time spent sorting the basket which could be reasonable, the only way to make more eggs to cover that and offer investors more eggs than they put in is to be using the funds elsewhere which perhaps hasn't proved as profitable as thought or is tied up in unaccessable places like orders placed for islands or something.
Or the other way is to make a big profit out of it assuming that at the most a small percentage of those investing are ever going to want their money back and take the money and run. But from others saying the guy running it is still inworld, seems not the case If anything I suspect he would have put a lot of USD in since the trouble started to keep as many customers happy as he can. SL is one big egg basket people put eggs in and people take eggs out, no chickens in SL are making new eggs, if anything SL is eating some of the eggs, when the population loose say $27000 in inventory losses or given money to characters who never log back in again, it the same as 10 people burning a $10USD note each. People aren't making money in SL they are being given it. Making a profit require's purchase of something and changing it into something more valuable. One day SL is going to do a big scale Ginko........................ _____________________
Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]
Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107) Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107) |
|
Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
|
08-05-2007 03:48
agree 100% besides can not take L out anyway Or transfer the monies to alt accounts.....But the sooner the better i hope. Its summer and people are bord on the forum. Which equals flames, thoughts of burning at the steak etc.....  |
|
Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
|
08-05-2007 04:39
I make real money in this virtual world, as do thousands of others. Calling it make believe and a fantasy doesn't change the fact that there is a growing number of people making real money in here. When a scam artist steals a large sum of money in game, it should be everyone's concern, even if only to the degree where we can prevent this kind of thing from happening again. Maybe he hasn't stolen it? If he had he would have ran, seeing he is still inworld and trying to stay afloat I guess, he made some poor investments or the money is tied up into longer termed invesments, real life small banks used to go bust all the time when some one started a rush on the money, when all the money generating long term investments have to be sold at possibly bad market times to get cashflow what else could you do? _____________________
Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]
Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107) Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107) |
|
Plato Cochrane
Registered User
Join date: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 234
|
08-05-2007 05:07
The whole Second Life thing is nothing but a game.........call it anything else and you are deluding yourself. Sure a few people make a living in the game........a very few. A few more make enough to play for "free".......again, just a few. Everyone else plays this game at their own expense...........in other words, it costs us real money to play. Even the basic accounts if they purchase anything at all. Everything we do, make, create, or experience is make believe. That includes "banking". Ginko was/is a make believe bank or "investment" company or whatever you want to call it. You put your money in and play at "investing" or 'saving" with interest. It's when you forget the fact you are playing a game and believe you are realling "making" money that you get burned. Do I have sympathy for people's losses? Yes. I have sympathy for anyone who gets carried away with fantasy playing and get hurt when the illusion falls apart. However, I can't get all worked up over their losses when they continue to "ride it out". The problem is people take this game too seriously. People are looking for a fun and an easy way to have fun. It's when people try to make the game a real life experience with real money being made that problems occur. If the real money comes, that is gravy...........gravy that can be lost in a heartbeat. Enjoy it while you can........when it's over, move on. Do something else in SL that is fun. But if you are looking for financial gain in this world, you are going to be very disappointed...........and maybe even bitter. And no one is going to recover their losses either. Ginko shuts down.........sorry, Charlie. You lose. Well, I agree that SL should primarily be looked as an entertainment expense but that doesn't mean that it can't be taken somewhat seriously. A large $2500 LCD TV would also be considered an entertainment expense right? Say you bought said TV at an electronics store, took it home and found out that your expensive TV doesn't work at all--wont even turn on. So, you take your TV back to the store and they won't accept it. They say you shouldn't take the fact the TV wont turn on and you can't use it seriously. Now, don't you think you would have a right to be upset? I think most reasonable people would be. |
|
Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
|
08-05-2007 05:30
He can't file for bankrupcy... What he runs is not real! Thats just it. Its as if you walked up to a man on the street and gave him your money and said here keep this I will pick it up later. He was not a Corp or a LLC as far as I know anyway... But thats exactly why this will end up bitting him in the ass... He thinks hes slick but by not forming at least a LLC that means that and law suites in RL on him fall directly on him even if its in the name of his so called bank. That means people can sue him for rl land, cars, homes you name it! Thats the whole point of filing a LLC. You can only go after the company not the person. He screwed himself there and I am sure there are people talking to some lawyers. Its just a matter of time. |
|
Pratyeka Muromachi
Meditating Avatar
Join date: 14 Apr 2005
Posts: 642
|
08-05-2007 05:33
in a chaotic social environment (be it RL or SL), nothing creates itself, everything is inter-related. For something like Ginko to come into existence you need 2 things:
1- someone to organize the service and do the job. 2- greedy people willing to fund the service, expecting big profits without spending time or energy. No greedy people = no Ginko. Greedy people not getting what they expect = frustration. Reducing level of greed = reduced level of frustration. No greed = no frustration. Clear enough? _____________________
gone to Openlife Grid and OpenSim standalone, your very own sim on your PC, 45,000 prims, huge prims at will up to 100m, yes, run your own grid on your PC, FOR FREE!
|
|
Uvas Umarov
Phone Weasel Advocate
Join date: 8 Feb 2007
Posts: 622
|
08-05-2007 06:35
Maybe he hasn't stolen it? If he had he would have ran, seeing he is still inworld and trying to stay afloat I guess, he made some poor investments or the money is tied up into longer termed invesments, real life small banks used to go bust all the time when some one started a rush on the money, when all the money generating long term investments have to be sold at possibly bad market times to get cashflow what else could you do? Well the fact of the matter is that all remaining balances are out of Second Life. He says they are invested in things that can make 100% returns. He won't say what those "investments" are. Even Ponzi himself gave an "explanation" of how he made his profits--mail coupons. Sustained 100% returns are impossible, if he could do it consistantly, why the hell would he need our money? He could become fabulously wealthy in just a few years from real life income, a bank loan, or a credit card advance. So he has all depositors money in his pocket already. Its just a matter of time until he says bye bye. I suppose he is keeping the doors open as long as possible to take as much as he can through his "salary", so at least that amount taken looks legitimate. And/or he trickles a little back in at a time in hopes that the run will die down over time. If it blows over he can then go back to taking in money from the steady stream of noobies who have no idea what is going on. _____________________
"On the other hand, if you are convinced that I spent all the money on a new sports car, then getting even 2.5% instead of 0% back would be quite a deal, wouldn't it?" ---ginko bank owner on his financial dealings
|
|
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
|
08-05-2007 06:45
Maybe he hasn't stolen it? If he had he would have ran, seeing he is still inworld and trying to stay afloat I guess Actually, ironically, this was Ponzi's failing too. He didn't know when to cut and run. He experienced two such runs on his "firm" too, both times rode them out with a smile and cheerfully finding ways to repay his investors, dealing with them in person for days on end, and earned back confidence and most of the investors who panicked eventually put their money back in with him. See, funnily enough, a lot of people have speculated that Ponzi was basically ignorant of what he was doing, in a way. Oh, sure, he was a conman, born and bred... the Ponzi Scheme was not his first scam nor would it be his last. But he seemed almost naively optimistic about the Ponzi Scheme. He seemed to actually believe that at some point he could earn enough money that he could invest in something that would repay all the debt he kept accruing, despite the fact that every dollar he gained put him further in debt. By the time it "got away from him", as it were, there was no way he could just cut and run, because there was no money to cut and run with. Ponzi would die little better than a pauper. Even the accountants and investigators who tried to clean up his mess couldn't find where a lot of the money went, nor even precisely how much he had. _____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
|
|
Uvas Umarov
Phone Weasel Advocate
Join date: 8 Feb 2007
Posts: 622
|
08-05-2007 06:55
Agreed.
And some people object that ginko can't possibly be a ponzi scheme because its been going on for 3 years. Well, a quick peek in Wikipedia under ponzi shows that there were many such schemes that lasted for years, some as long as 20! The difference with this one is, there is no legal recourse ingame. Ginko can stop withdrawals for as long as he likes. In real life this sort of thing would bring the authorities and auditors in, and the perp would go to the bighouse. _____________________
"On the other hand, if you are convinced that I spent all the money on a new sports car, then getting even 2.5% instead of 0% back would be quite a deal, wouldn't it?" ---ginko bank owner on his financial dealings
|
|
Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
|
08-05-2007 07:22
Agreed. And some people object that ginko can't possibly be a ponzi scheme because its been going on for 3 years. Very Good point. Many repectable people used or have used Ginko. It is just resently in these crasy time this past year a few problems came about. In all due repect, I hope everyone gets what the put in and doesnt lose. Usagi |
|
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
|
08-05-2007 07:29
Actually, ironically, this was Ponzi's failing too. He didn't know when to cut and run. He experienced two such runs on his "firm" too, both times rode them out with a smile and cheerfully finding ways to repay his investors, dealing with them in person for days on end, and earned back confidence and most of the investors who panicked eventually put their money back in with him. See, funnily enough, a lot of people have speculated that Ponzi was basically ignorant of what he was doing, in a way. Oh, sure, he was a conman, born and bred... the Ponzi Scheme was not his first scam nor would it be his last. But he seemed almost naively optimistic about the Ponzi Scheme. He seemed to actually believe that at some point he could earn enough money that he could invest in something that would repay all the debt he kept accruing, despite the fact that every dollar he gained put him further in debt. By the time it "got away from him", as it were, there was no way he could just cut and run, because there was no money to cut and run with. Ponzi would die little better than a pauper. Even the accountants and investigators who tried to clean up his mess couldn't find where a lot of the money went, nor even precisely how much he had. Exactly - if you were running a Ponzi scheme - if you cut and run it means you'd have to get a new scam going, from scratch. Meanwhile your current deal is only suffering from "Liquidity" problems. If Ginko IS a Ponzi it survivng this Bank run is potentially more dangerous to possible investors than it failing. Becuase in a year we could be sitting here and instead of asking where 150 million Lindens are, we could be asking where 1 billion Lindens are. Its not like the cops have come a knocking, nor will anytime soon. The only reason a Ponzi runner would have to cut and run would be fear of prosecution or deciding he wasnt going to get any more milk from his cash cow. |
|
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
|
08-05-2007 07:32
Agreed. And some people object that ginko can't possibly be a ponzi scheme because its been going on for 3 years. Well, a quick peek in Wikipedia under ponzi shows that there were many such schemes that lasted for years, some as long as 20! The difference with this one is, there is no legal recourse ingame. Ginko can stop withdrawals for as long as he likes. In real life this sort of thing would bring the authorities and auditors in, and the perp would go to the bighouse. There have been Ponzi schemes that have lasted well over 3 years Dona Branca ran one that lasted nearly 14. |
|
Micheal Steadham
Second Life/WOW lover
Join date: 4 Aug 2006
Posts: 25
|
08-05-2007 07:37
The problem is, I don't believe he made a mistake. He accomplished exactly what he wanted. He acquired a large earnings from his business. The problem is how he accomplished it and the unethical way it was done.
If I thought that there were any possibility of my ever seeing my money again, it would be different. Unfortunately from what the CEO has said in his own words, I have to believe he's gonna keep his "winnings" and move on. And everyone is right, buyer beware, and from this everyone hopefully has learned that in a "game" everyone is fair game. Ginko has won, and is reaping the rewards. Nuff said. For all of you who think that the CEO is up and up and this is only a phase, read Ginko's own forum and the comments from the people who were in the queue and didn't get their withdrawal when their number came up, and the queue kept counting. Obviously it's all to keep people depositing money to cover their salaries for as long as possible. Such a shame to have RL greed on such a magnitude in a virtual reality game. Live and learn, when you make RL standards apply to pieces of a game, RL issues invade and take over the game. How about making it a game again and get the RL similarities out of Second Life or we cal all sit back and watch SL end up like Ginko. Such a shame. |
|
John Horner
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 626
|
08-05-2007 10:06
The problem is, I don't believe he made a mistake. He accomplished exactly what he wanted. He acquired a large earnings from his business. The problem is how he accomplished it and the unethical way it was done. If I thought that there were any possibility of my ever seeing my money again, it would be different. Unfortunately from what the CEO has said in his own words, I have to believe he's gonna keep his "winnings" and move on. And everyone is right, buyer beware, and from this everyone hopefully has learned that in a "game" everyone is fair game. Ginko has won, and is reaping the rewards. Nuff said. For all of you who think that the CEO is up and up and this is only a phase, read Ginko's own forum and the comments from the people who were in the queue and didn't get their withdrawal when their number came up, and the queue kept counting. Obviously it's all to keep people depositing money to cover their salaries for as long as possible. Such a shame to have RL greed on such a magnitude in a virtual reality game. Live and learn, when you make RL standards apply to pieces of a game, RL issues invade and take over the game. How about making it a game again and get the RL similarities out of Second Life or we cal all sit back and watch SL end up like Ginko. Such a shame. I see from your header below your name you may like WoW as I do. There Blizzard discourage first life economic activity within game, although Gold sellers, databases with adverts, and suchlike are loosely tolerated. I disagree with the lady avatar earlier who said this was a pure game. In any online game you have to play to rules unless you find that time-honoured thing called an exploit. In WoW etc you cannot set up an off line auction house and sell armour sets for real first life money rather than Gold very easily for example. SL is a platform because there are no rules of the "game" AND because it contains within platform a type of computer language to enable you to create. Together of course with an in game currency with fungible value. On that point there was an article in the Times (UK) this week saying that law enforcement agencies are starting to have concerns policing SL due to the relative ease in terms of transferring currency across borders and other terror related issues. Having said all that Michael I am looking at the WSE again (World Stock Exchange) to see if there are any attractive growth prospects. You are both right and wrong, there ARE no easy answers the reason being simple understandable human greed. That is what powers all markets, that is both greed and fear, Second Life is (in part) (at present) part of first life in that economic respect |
|
Uvas Umarov
Phone Weasel Advocate
Join date: 8 Feb 2007
Posts: 622
|
08-05-2007 10:27
Hey John
I've been reading your posts on the WSE for some time with interest. Didn't you come to the conclusion that it is an extremely risky investment? What makes you want to take another look? By the way the deposits seem to be dropping fast today according to Ginko's website. He must have been able to liquidate some assets I guess. _____________________
"On the other hand, if you are convinced that I spent all the money on a new sports car, then getting even 2.5% instead of 0% back would be quite a deal, wouldn't it?" ---ginko bank owner on his financial dealings
|
|
Angelique LaFollette
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,595
|
08-05-2007 10:37
Oh he can and should be. He is 50% of it no doubt. Hell he should be banned for even claiming to be a bank if you ask me. In the Immortal words of W.C. Fields: "You can't Cheat an honest man" All Cons have One thing in Common, they Play on peoples Greed. I'm Sure many of The people getting into this scheme were trying to get something for nothing, and the world just doesn't work that way (Unless you hold office) and i'm sure a great many got into it Knowing it was a Ponzi, and hoped to get in Close enough to the narrow part of the pyramid that they could get a return Before it collapsed. What does that say about the victims who were prepared to take that risk Knowing their returns were being stolen from people farther down the List? Most are innocent, Guilty of Nothing more than being Fools, But None of this excuses the Creator of a Confidence scheme. His Full Intent is to Rob as many people as Possible then make Good his escape whether those people are honest investors, or someone Playing along with the Scam like a Jackal following the Lion Pride. the true Fault Lies Solely with the originator of the Scam. In Fairness it remains to be seen whether Ginko was a Con, or whether Nicholas is simply a Bad Business man. Until ALL the facts are Known we can't simply Make the assumption he is guilty. There is cause for Concern, and Justification for an Investigation but as yet NO facts sufficient for assuming his guilt. Those persons Most concerned with this situation (The Investors) Should be calling for an Investigation and the Rest of us should Watch, and Learn. Angel. |
|
John Horner
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 626
|
08-05-2007 11:53
Hey John I've been reading your posts on the WSE for some time with interest. Didn't you come to the conclusion that it is an extremely risky investment? What makes you want to take another look? By the way the deposits seem to be dropping fast today according to Ginko's website. He must have been able to liquidate some assets I guess. Well on Ginko I paid in $L10 and then tried to withdraw (to verify), they have a queue system in place and I am at (earlier about number 2300 in the line and $L 16 million waiting to be paid out. Re the WSE...There are more people involved, its in the worlds first life media, I still have big reservations, I still think potential dishonesty is an issue, BUT.... I am inclined to think Luke is an honest and smart guy trying to run a business. Super smart people usually realise it's better to run a straight house. But do your research with care, my own experiance is with first life financial products NOT Second Life |