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Island Granville
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 86
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02-28-2007 13:21
you just don't see seams like that in other professionally produced content I think you have identified the root of the problem. How many SL designers are professional graphic designers, in tech related fields or otherwise? SL is largely a recreational pursuit, and much of the content created reflects this. |
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Raudf Fox
(ra-ow-th)
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 5,119
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02-28-2007 13:27
as far as why the seams are there in the first place.. well, once again, cant speak for anyone else... but for instance.. some patterns such as plaid, argyle, etc.. are very difficult to line up in certain places (shirt and pants.. as texture is distorted on pants... leg and foot.. also distorted) and while i am sure it is possible, some people do this as a hobby and dont have hours to spend trying to figure out how to distort their plaid pants to make it line up with the shirt layer. Some people just dont have the skill to do it. Long, long time ago i remember one particular very popular designer making a disclaimer in her blog that no, her seams did not always line up because she hand draws everything and does not intend it to be perfection. Some people just dont have countless hours to spend lining up every tiny pixel. It can be very daunting. Perhaps they should price their wares accordingly (i definitely keep my clothing prices low because i am not always perfect and never claim to be) i do think the seam issue is very largely affected by the crappy UV map. if it were more like.. the poser UV map, for instance, where the top and bottom are one joined unit, you would never see waist seams. However, having made both clothing and skins.. i have to say lining up all the seams on my skin was much, MUCH easier than lining them up on some of the more complicated patterns on clothing. It doesn't help that in both the shirt and the pants, the front and back of the clothing are different 'sizes', so one gets stretched or the other shrunk. I'm still learning the peculiarities of the UV Maps vs the in game models. I know a few of my pieces have seams.. and this was after hours of work trying to get it right. I simply don't have the skills yet to get it perfect. I keep trying, though. Unfortunately, this leads to me avoiding certain patterns and styles, but that's alright. I'm getting there  _____________________
DiamonX Studios, the place of the Victorian Times series of gowns and dresses - Located at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Fushida/224/176
Want more attachment points for your avatar's wearing pleasure? Then please vote for https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1065? |
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Showdog Tiger
Registered User
Join date: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 404
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My Two Cents
02-28-2007 13:28
Dearly Darlings,
The warpage on fabric is a pain I admit. However when I've truely found a problem (ie: exposed nipple on my avatar) I have yet to find a designer that did not take the item back and refund my money. My biggest gripe has always been the no modfiy on clothing. As all body types and shapes are not the same, we should have the ability to make the clothes item fit our bodies. I don't buy items that I cannot contour to my body. I've passed up many a cute outfit...money does not grow on trees...oh wait for new folks here it does...ooops! You all have a lovely afternoon! Mrs. Showdog Tiger _____________________
Dogdom Doge
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Winter Ventura
Eclectic Randomness
Join date: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2,579
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02-28-2007 14:26
Um, who said the sit target had to be that far away from the vendor? Just have it set the avatar back in front of the vendor again. the sit target is a long way away from the vendor wall ^^^  _____________________
 ● Inworld Store: http://slurl.eclectic-randomness.com ● Website: http://www.eclectic-randomness.com ● Twitter: @WinterVentura |
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Zazas Oz
Rufeena Fashion Designer
Join date: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 517
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Drives Me Crazy
02-28-2007 14:30
I do agree and it drives me crazy as a designer. I wont say all of my designs are seamless but I will do all I can to make them so that they match or come darn close.
People laugh at me that I will upload over and over when it may be only slightly off especially in the shoulder area. I will still not be happy cause it bugs me. I dont like buying clothes that have off seams and shoulders and so I will go back into PS and fix them as best they can be. Another one that really bugs me is the running texture down the thigh problem. Alot of designers make thongs and dont seem to care if the texture is running down the inside of the thigh. It looks horrible. Granted sometimes the way the av gets twisted in animations things are going to look strange but normally standing and shifting there shouldnt be any running there or up into the armpits. I have found that wearing the templete under the design in game and uploading pics has helped me match up the patterns and seams. . But sometimes you try and try and they just wont come together. |
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Coyote Momiji
Pintsized Plutonium
Join date: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 715
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02-28-2007 14:56
The UV maps... *shudders*
I've seen some awful 3D models, and some really good ones. I've seen some that COULD have been exquisite - if only their UV maps weren't so bad. The UV maps for the SL figure are some of the worst I've ever seen. It's enough to make the baby Jesus cry. |
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Namssor Daguerre
Imitates life
Join date: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,423
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02-28-2007 15:34
I think you have identified the root of the problem. How many SL designers are professional graphic designers, in tech related fields or otherwise? SL is largely a recreational pursuit, and much of the content created reflects this. It seems to me that prim count and upload costs are a side issue; However, they cause designers to opt for transferable permissions settings in order to cut overhead. Returns and refund policies on clothing is great and eliminates buyers risk in the same way that demos do, but processing returns and issuing refunds is a form of overhead too. Which is better, demos or refunds? The answer may not be the same for all cases. If one offers transfer permissions then one must take away copy permissions. Without copy permissions modify permissions can become risky to use and a pain for maintaining more than one variation on a piece of clothing. There is no perfect solution to those issues. It's all a give and take. Clothing seams, however, can be avoided through skill and craftsmanship. I know what I can do in that regard if I ever start selling clothing. My process for making clothing would not be much different from that of making skins. |
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Angelique LaFollette
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,595
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02-28-2007 18:21
Usually you cant see the seems on the vendor pictures - and you cant try on the clothes before time. When you look at Photo ads of RL Fashions they look perfect as well, It's called "Post Work" I look for Clothing on People first. If i like what i see, i ask where it can be Purchased, that way, somebody else has done all the testing for me.  Angel. |
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Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
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02-28-2007 18:54
Some probably attempt it then get tired of it, and since no one says anything it`s enough to get them by so they keep letting it go. Some just dont care.
I dont normally notice up on my shoulders but the other day i did notice this shirt i had was increddibly unmatched up on the shoulder area and I thought "Wow it looks like they didnt even try" I tried to line up my shirts pretty darn good, but admittedly after attempting the same spot over n over i just am like "eh its good enough" which was hard for me as when it comes to certain things im a perfectionist, but at 65$L for a shirt................ It doesnt look terrible at all, infact given the location, its pretty unnoticeable. I always welcome ppl to PLS send me an IM if there is something they did not like and I will look at it and if i think it needs fixing i fix it and give them a new one and replace the old one in the box- only happened once, but its part of the reason I make my shirts transferrable. If people are going to buy from me, I want them to be satisfied with what they buy. But most importantly it has to be satisfying to myself, and like i said- i think some ppl just dont care about the seams |
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Raindrop Drinkwater
Globally Creative
Join date: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 240
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03-01-2007 00:52
Seams are a pain!
Fitting the shape of the clothes isn't too difficult, it's the shading. The shading of my earlier clothes didn't always match from front to back -- I eventually managed to fix that, and am gradually updating these items. I think that in some cases, the designer just hasn't got to the point where he's able to fix the seams. It is not just a matter of time, it is also a matter of experience and skills. I would have been unable to fix the seams at the beginning, the learning curve was to steep. I'm also afraid that in some cases, maybe, the designer is sloppy and doesn't care. _____________________
 A2NZ : When creativity goes global. Latex, Casual, Club gear. blog.a2nz.org || Main store in Ufeus |
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Namssor Daguerre
Imitates life
Join date: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,423
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03-01-2007 07:46
I look for Clothing on People first. If i like what i see, i ask where it can be Purchased, that way, somebody else has done all the testing for me. |
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Anjo Mirabeau
Registered User
Join date: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 266
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03-01-2007 07:52
I have noticed that too. Why are there no clothing demos? Too much time invested?---OP
Blaze offers clothing demo's. Good luck _____________________
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Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
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03-01-2007 08:01
Though Second Life is visually impressive as compared to other online virtual settings, the graphics are still are not ultimate high quality. Given the ultimate use, it would not make a lot of sense to spend hours on fine details of clothes. In fact, since bandwidth and processing limits are a problem, small and simple are virtues.
Some seams are the unavoidable consequence of the texture being stretched over a distorted (customized) geometry. Complex textures are more senstive to geometry changes. Some seams are tolerable and just don't look bad at all. Some seams make the clothes look like they've been cut up (usually clothes that have lots of string-like straps). Even though I think that there's no reason to spend hours into extra detail, given the overall level of graphics, the pricing of the clothes should reflect that. Clothes that are just "good enough" are acceptable to me- but they shouldn't cost hundreds of Lindens. Here is a possible idea for coders more advanced than I at the moment- why not create manequins that customers can dress up and modify before buying clothes? With modification, the customer can see how well the clothes hold up to a larger chest, shorter legs, bigger hips, or whatever. That could be a way to demonstrate the clothes without using a demo as is done with hair, for example. |
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Ilianexsi Sojourner
Chick with Horns
Join date: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,707
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03-01-2007 08:42
Here is a possible idea for coders more advanced than I at the moment- why not create manequins that customers can dress up and modify before buying clothes? You could also use someone to model the designs in the store, like some tattoo places do. I think a browseable vendor of demos is also a good idea, if the designer doesn't mind all the extra texture uploads. Personally, I don't really mind seams on clothes that much; as others have mentioned, clothes in RL do have seams, and patterns can be a pain to match. If an item has an all-over pattern, is really well made, and has a visible seam on the sides, I wouldn't necessarily consider that a flaw. Things like stripes and plaids should be matched up, but with things like florals, I wouldn't be bothered if there was a seam. I'm more bothered by pieces that don't match up at the neckline or the bottom. I currently have a few pieces with 'nicks' on one shoulder because of this, and the only reason I haven't returned them is because I didn't wear the item (and therefore didn't notice) right away, and it seemed like it'd look a bit odd if I returned something I'd already had awhile. _____________________
Everything's impossible,'till it ain't. --Ben Hawkins, Carnivale
Help build a Utopian Playland-- www.doctorsteel.com. Music, robots, fun times! |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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03-01-2007 08:53
well theres also this -
Most skin designers include demos - A skin seller would lose business if they did not have them. Most clothing designers dont - thus the same need to have a demo is not there. If a sizable portion of clothing designers had demos - of course the rest would have to follow suit , to not risk the loss in sales. Some designers clothes are orginal enough I forgive their bad seems; well, 1 I can think of. |
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Namssor Daguerre
Imitates life
Join date: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,423
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03-01-2007 08:59
Here is a possible idea for coders more advanced than I at the moment- why not create manequins that customers can dress up and modify before buying clothes? With modification, the customer can see how well the clothes hold up to a larger chest, shorter legs, bigger hips, or whatever. That could be a way to demonstrate the clothes without using a demo as is done with hair, for example. While that may work for prim based products this will not work for clothing. Avatars can not be duplicated in prims. NPCs can't function without being linked to an account and password. NPCs can't be remotely controled to change clothing and appearance without very sophisticated and expensive AI interfaces. It's also against the LL TOS to give out passwords to any account, so any type of approach short of hiring people to demo ones entire inventory 24/7 on thier account would not work. No one is going to do this because of the financial restrictions so we're back to square one again, which I have no problem with (offer demos of avatar textures with the words "Sample" or "Demo" stamped on the textures). Blaze offers clothing demo's. Good luck |
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Anjo Mirabeau
Registered User
Join date: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 266
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03-01-2007 09:06
Yes it is Blaze Columbia. LM I have is in Triumph 100,137,251. I Hope it is still current. I spent some time trying on some of his/her evening gowns and still can't get one of them out of my mind lol. I guess I'll have to go back and get it afterall
 _____________________
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Crystal Falcon
Registered Silly User
Join date: 9 Aug 2006
Posts: 631
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03-01-2007 09:42
So unlike others, I do not understand why people create clothing with bad seams. Why draw things that aren't going to line up? It doesn't take me any more time to draw them correctly the first time, does it take anyone else?
 Sure, if you've never done it before, but during the very first texture upload, the preview lets you see the mistake. (Unless, like me at first, you don't realize you can change the rotate preview, so pay for the upload to see your error!) I try to only buy from reliable names, and if I see something nice elsewhere, I only buy an inexpensive item before risking getting burned on something that could never be worn. Because of that, for the few items I sell, I made sure to show the seams in the ads!  I wish more ads had three-quarter views instead of straight on front/back, then maybe demos wouldn't be necessary because we'd see what we need? _____________________
TP to Crystal's Facets in world:
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Kress/120/5/146/ Shop my natural AO poses, clothing, tools with XStreet: |
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Regan Turas
Token Main
Join date: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 274
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03-01-2007 09:51
I've returned (or asked for a refund) when clothes have seams that don't meet, allowing skin to show through. That's just not acceptable.
In my newbie days, I've thrown out shoes that were waaaay too big and couldn't be modified, since that was an obvious risk that I took in buying a no-mod item. But I've made note to never buy from that designer again, and to stop buying shoes without mod rights. I consider those wasted L$ to be part of the steep SL learning curve. I tend to let shoulder strap misalignments pass because my female avatar has broad shoulders, and I've always assumed that there's a limit to how much a designer can control when avatar dimensions are so malleable. |
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Angelique LaFollette
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,595
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03-01-2007 19:45
This is a good approach for a lot of people. Years ago, when I first joined SL, I did quite a lot of this type of shopping, mostly to see what other people were creating. I'd take snapshots for my records, talk to people, and fill in the 'Details' line with contact info. Now I'm much less social in SL simply becuase I spend 99% of my time in creative mode. I browse the 'New Products' and 'Gallery' sections to stay current. It's more efficient but I don't get to see the product on an avatar in motion, which I miss. For me, the Clothing isn't a Static thing, I am Looking for a specific Look, or effect. A Lot of Fashion (Pre Flex) looked Wonderful as Long as you stood perfectly still in a default Pose, But add a New stance to your AO, or try to walk anywhere, and suddenly those Magnificent Gowns Look Ludecrous. No, for me, I need Live Modeling all the time. I have lots of folders of Clothing i don't wear because it Looked Great in the Picture, but Lousy when i Put it on. A Hint to Clothing retailers; Have your wares shown Not just on One Model, But Three with Three different Skin Tones. Not all Fashion colours or cuts look Good when Worn on a Person of a different colour than the Model you used. It's a touch more Labor Intensive when generating the Add, but it Will pay off in Greater Sales. Angel. |
