Free groups that take your money

I have a friend who is in and out of money a lot and found that his balance dipped to below zero when he took a break from the game . We determined that a group of his was taking linden from his account ... I then checked my own groups and found one doing the same thing to me but I never noticed it before because my money account is much more full . It made me angry this group was free to join and did nothing ... no group notices no involvment and yet thinks it can take money out of my account? I didnt find out until I went to the L$ info section of the group and searched for the information after another friend taught me how. I would never have even known it was happening they never told me . The only reason I stayed was because I liked the tag name over my head it provided. I dumped the group and dont speak to the owner of it any longer.... What right do groups have to take money out of an account each week without informing them? Most people dont know or think to go look at the the dollar info in a group to see what they are up to... I think if a group takes money from you for Any reason they need to disclose it in the info in the front of the group before you join.

Elinah

If a group has one or more parcel-based ads (A places listing in Search) that incur a financial liability each week, and if the group is set up in the default manner so all members share in both profits and losses from the group, then the cost of that Places ad is split among group members. This is usually a very small amount, unless the group itself is quite small. Most group owners are not even aware of such charges, as they pass unnoticed among other payments and profits. The money goes to Linden Lab, and the group owner is paying it too. The geoup owner is not profiting at your expense when a "Group Liability" is charged.

There are two solutions.

The best is to talk to the group owner, and ask them to change the group roles so only the owner, or only the owner and certain group officers, share any profits or liabilities. Then general members like you and your friend never get billed, nor do you ever receive any profits from money paid to group-owned items.

The other option is to leave the group.

Someone must pay for the ad. If it's a group owned parcel being advertized or incurring other group liabilities, who pays is defined by group roles. You can check to see if a group might charge you like this by checking the roles you belong to, (usually just the "Everyone" role, if it's an open group and you're not an officer), and making sure the checkbox for "receive profits and pay liabilities" is or is not not checked. If it is checked, it may occasionally cost you a few L$ to belong.

I know gambling doesnt exist for discussing things-

But were would group owned slot machine payouts come from?

If its the group liability - wouldnt it be possible to "mine" the groups Accounts?

Gambling devides are inevitably owned by the individual running the casino. If they were set to group, they would be making payouts from group liability charges and paying profits back to the group. In the long run, since gambling devices are supposed to be desiggned with odds that slightly favor the house, it would make a small profit for group members. But it would play hell with your transaction logs!

Dear Ceera,
Thank you for your reply. Very educational. I didnt know how things work but I still feel that the words " free to join" are misleading if they will be charging you linden afterwards. I always thought that taking out ads and such were the finanacial responsiblity of the owner of the group and just part of the price of owning it, since many groups are created by sl business owners to give notices about their products? I didnt realize I would be asked to pay their advertising bills ... This group info you speak of is it disclosed before you join or after? Thanks for you help .

Elinah

This has been brought up a few times in the last couple of months. In my personal opinion you have jumped too fast into being angry at the owner of the group who may not even be aware of the mistake within the group roles in the first place. It would have been wise to send an IM to the owner asking if they were aware that everyone within the group (or particular role) were paying for the liability and see what their action was from there.

As mentioned above; there are times when the group owner doesnt even think to check all of the default priviledges that the "Everyone" role grants members. Luckily, however, it only takes a fast peek at the roles and the unchecking of a box next to the appropriate priviledge and the situation is resolved. Also mentioned above, this isnt the group owner taking money from you and pocketing it without telling you. With all the new features within a group recently, Im willing to bet more than half of the group owners out there havent even looked to see what they all are and to make sure their groups are set up properly.

Slots and other Gaming devices can't be deeded to a group since a group has no real account, so thers no way to "mine" a groups money

Ahh you missed my evil point.

youd want to make a slot machine that Loses. A lot.

Then basically rob the group by running up the group liability.

Youd be in colusion of course with the person using the machine.


--- Of course I woudlnt do this. But if its possible to do , it needs fixed. Yesterday.

So basically the "this script needs permission to take money" - wont work for group deeded objects?

Good.

You also can't request PERMISSION_DEBIT from a group because there's nobody to click OK

Edit: that's the one Colette

Okay this talk of slot machine groups begs a new question once you join a group and they have access to your account what is to stop an unscrupulous group owner from finding a way to empty all the accounts of all linden and go?

Elinah

Classified ads get paid for from the account of the person who takes out the ad, but Places ads get paid for by the owner of the parcel, which can be a group.

A lot of parcel owners find out about the really nasty implications of everyone sharing the liabilities when they sell their group-owned land - and find the profits from the land sale get split equally to all the group members, I believe on the next business day. Imagine selling L$100,000 worth of land, and getting only L$1000 back, because 99 other group members each also got L$1000! Good luck getting it all back!

In that case the only possible liability is the 30L for the weekly listing?

So the max liability per week would be # of listed parcels x 30L then divided by the group members.

So were literally talking chump change. Couple lindens per week, usually.

SO is no motivation for the group owner to "scam" people. Its just something they forgot.

Becuase they said it cant happen .. luckily

That was the question I had.

Exactly, I dont see this as some evil plot to go out and take money from people either as the owner isnt GETTING the money from you in the first place.

However...it can be more than 30L a week if the groups land is divided into parcels that each have seperate ad listings.


Also,



When you join a group they do not, no way, have access to your account. The reason you got charged those lindens was purely because the "Pay Liability" priviledge was checked on a role you had within the group. Not because the owner of the group went into your account and took lindens or charged you themself. Also, if you left the group and didnt mention why to the owner, they may not realize the mistake (it IS a default setting to have that box checked for Everyone when the group is made, MOST people do not look) then the owner can never fix it for remaining people within the group. I would wager that they would be rather thankful to know of the error and fix it right away.

Well call me cheap or whatever but I dont think of $30 linden as chump change ... if I went around giving out that much to every group I belonged to each week it would really start to add up . I dont mean to say that groups have no right to ever charge any linden all I meant to say is tell me up front what All the fees are and let me have the right to say yes or no dont say its free and then take out money behind my back and never tell me anything about it. Perhaps the group info should be altered by linden so this info is automatically provided before you join?

Its 30 divided by the entire group. Not per member.

Still, the owners of the group should be made aware of it.
If there is no money going into the group, and members get no special privilege on land (such as build rights etc), why should they be paying for the listings that will make the owners money?

Wow this is all a little confusing wish I was better at math lol. I guess I should tell the group owner something, perhaps I wlll mention it to a mutual friend ... it will no doubt get back to her .

Elinah

Yes very true - On any group permissions Ive set up since the new system - Ive always made sure only the owner had liability.

Back in the days of dwell didnt matter the group members got more dwell money than the liability.

My feelings exactly .


Elinah

This is what people dont seem to be seeing or listening to. Most people do not look at the priviledges that people get in a group when they set it up now. Most people that had a group before the new set up havent gone in to look at how it is set up now. Most of the time this happens it is a mistake that can be easily fixed by telling the owner of the group.

In my opinion, this is NOT a matter of someone making a group and inviting people without telling them all of the fees. This is more than likely the group owner not seeing that the fees are even their themself.

Here is how it works when you make a group. When a group is created there are 3 roles already within the group. "Everyone" "Officer" and "Owner". After checking to make sure with a group I just recently made (with no land attatched so it doesnt apply but the example remains). If you look within ANY group, and go into the roles you will see a lot of different priviledges that the owner(s) of the group may grant or deny members. When you create the group, the "Everyone" role has the 'pay liabilities' option checked by default. Meaning, the group owner doesnt do it, its checked for them already. Now, if said owner doesnt realize this and just puts land into the group, invites people and then places the land up as searchable...the liability will go to all the members, splitting it evenly. This does not mean that the group owner set it up to be a free group that charges fees. It COULD be, heaven knows...but I highly doubt it.

To inform ANY group you are in that is charging you liabilities, just let them know that the box is checked. I have found that the option for it is waaaay down on the list of roles (if you dont know what roles are, open up any group you are in and go to the Members & Roles tab, do some looking around at how groups are set up now. They can be confusing) and more often than not, completely overlooked by group owners.

As most people in the game dont read the forums, people need to let them know about the detailed options within groups that they probably havent taken the time to look at. As a multiple group owner myself, its frustrating to see people misunderstanding it as malicous intent to charge people fees when I made the mistake myself when groups first changed

good point - the liabilties option for "Everyone" would be better if it were off by default.

Yes! I have no idea why they would make pay liabilities a default yes for "Everyone" *crosses eyes*. When you make a new role, you have to choose the priviledges, but when you go to invite someone to the group it is the "Everyone" role that is chosen for them by default as well. Im guessing most people dont uncheck that Everyone role when inviting people to the group either.

Yes I have heard of dwell but I never got to take advantage of it . Another great linden idea gone ... but that is another topic... lol

Elinah