Ripped off *royally* by a builder

*sighs* Alright, here goes...

This is a complicated matter and it's quite a long story behind it but I'll try and make this a short and to the point as I can.

You see I hired a builder to create a castle for me and she's been a real nasty person (to refrain from using expletitives here, even though she felt free to use *many* against me without provocation, even while she was building for me) to me right from the start. She was *far* too quick and eager to rush into getting the build put together and completed in as little time as possible, kept running/flying off to a different part of the lot or castle before I got a chance to typed out answers to the questions she asked or make suggestions about what I wanted, let alone even so much as gather my thoughts together to figure something out quickly enough to suit her. She kept swearing at me, telling me I was a pain to work with and would lay the biggest guilt-trips on me at every possible chance she had to get me to feel bad enough that I compensated her in high amounts of $L (even though before she started I told her right off the bat I wouldn't be able to pay very much, as much as she normally charges per hour) for, as she kept insisting, giving her headaches and wasting a lot of her precious time.

After constructing the castle, and having a falling out or three with her in between in IMs, I finally managed to get her back to finish parts of the castle she hadn't completed yet and other flaws in her build that needed fixing up. But no sooner did she arrive and I pointed out the problems in her work (as politely and calmly as possible, I can assure you) than she bailed out on me, telling me she was paid for the work she did (a total sum of $4000L I didn't even have to begin with) and that I would just have to find someone else to finish the job and fix the mess *she* made because in her lame cop-out excuse "i don't want to put up with your shit anymore goodbye". So what, because I *dared* to point out her own shoddy craftmanship (in not so blunt words to start with) she decides that's fair enough reason to outright abandon the project and leave me with an extremely flawed castle, to clean up after the mess *she* made?! What's worse, is I just found out that I can't even modify most of the castle, since there are many pieces of the build that still belong to her, and have no permissions to modify granted to me.

And just wait...it gets better. I got upset at her for bailing out on me so, understandably, that's when I got really fed up and started to give her a piece of my mind (without actually calling her any names to begin with, I should note), and then well we sort of got into it, to put it very lightly, and she insulted me, made derogatory slurs against my sexual orientation, even threatened me and all that loveliness. The insults flew back and forth between us and suffice it to say, you can see how this would make it pretty much an impossibility for me to ever open up a line of communication with her again, even just to ask her to grant modify rights to the pieces of the castle still under her name. So what do I do now? I contacted Live Help but they told me LL can't do anything about private transactions, and basically said I have to deal with this myself somehow. But he did tell me there are some people out there who might be able to help me, costumer invesigation and rights groups, notaries, things like that.

So I guess what I'm asking here now is, are there any people like that out there in SL who are willing to take on my case and assist me with this problematic and *most* injust situation, and if any of you know of them could I please have some names and possible suggestions you may have. Any suggestions, please, I've reached the end of my tether, I think I'm having a nervous breakdown (not just because of this, mind, but this was the final straw for certain) and my money is just being ripped off left and right by unscrupulous, horrible people such as this person in question. I won't refer to her by name right here because I'd rather like to avoid more trouble from this wretched, miserable bint.

My suggestion: I would delete the shoddy castle you can't modify and consider the L$4000 a loss. It's less than $20 US. Pretend you got a parking ticket today for that amount, burn some sage and let it go.

Oh and next time, think about going with a prefab.

When we builded the new stables for the horses (RL), we asked an architect for a design. This because we wanted the stables fit well with the house (an rebuilded farm) and the landscape. We took a close look at other things he designed.

Guess that maybe the same goes for SL... first take a look at other works of the builder and talk to former customers of her/him.

Morwen.

Mozo that's an absolutely sucky experience, I'm sorry.

I'm going to PM with you a names of some talented builders if thats ok with you. One actually specializes in castles. [EDIT: Oh you have PM's turned off. Ok, turn it on and PM me if you want those names ok ]

But also...

When you hire a builder, the person should be willing to sit down with you before ever making a single prim and talk out exactly what you want. It really helps to have some pictures of castles either in SL or RL that show some idea of what you have in mind. If the person indicates that they don't need to do that, then you might want to look elsewhere.

The price should be estimated up front. It is just an estimate so it can fluctuate based on whether the build takes longer or gets more complicated than the builder expects. But you shouldn't be expected to pay up front. Some require a downpayment at the start and then final payment upon completion. But by the hour is fairly unusual in my experience.

While a lot of builders get really uncomfortable with having someone hang around watching, (It makes me nervous lol) most will try to go with your ideas and listen to your suggestions as much as possible and many will have you come look periodically to make approvals or changes. Just keep in mind that builders are often artistic types and can get really fussy about their work. But you do have rights, you are the paying customer.

Again, having some pictures to show them at the start can go a long way toward making sure you're both on the same page.

There is the 'Better Business Bureau', they have an office on Masquerade Island, maybe other places too.

L$4000 is absolutely nothing compared to the time and effort involved in even just rezzing the prims to make a castle. I mean the time it would take to stack up cubes in neat piles to work with.

Besides which in these cases usually someone comes along and explains some other side of the story, such as changing specs and requirements that weren't part of the original agreement.

There are plenty of decent prefab castles around. Buy off the peg and then maybe hire someone to make modifications (simple ones like "move a couple of walls" if needed would be better. But I think it's unwise to pay cheap prefab prices and expect perfect, detailed, time consuming custom building work. And L$4000 is peanuts for that.

This is why, when I do custom builds, I like to have a written agreement outlining exactly what is expected and when and where. It sounds like that builder acted unprofessionally though, despite not (seemingly having a formal brief to work on.

As in RL, there is usually a breakdown between what is in a 'laymans' head and what is perceived by the architect/builder, except when full details are provided and can be scanned for alterations/modifications before construction starts. I know this only too well as this is my RL career.

My advise is to always, produce at least a picture of something similar, take the builder/architect to show them something similar, and provide a NC indicating specific details, especially with regards to any Mod rights required, especially if you are on a tight budget. Making changes on the fly and or giving specifications during the build, invariably creates frustration for all concerned, although it doesn't warrant rude behaviour and or responses.

Some people have a better understanding with business in so much as it is better to work with a potentially difficult client until they are happy, rather than risk ill feeling and possible loss of further work by non-recommendations. However there should always be a defining line both in time and costs establishing at what point is 'happy'. Aftercare is not always apparent!

You may wish to try using a mediator, to work with you both. There is no obligation on either party to abide by mediation, but with the right person, some of the things that need to be acheived, can be.

Good Luck

<Sticks head out of window> .... hmm, no sign of a van with a ladder on and 'AWM Mars' painted on side ...

.. so, err ... what kinda ballpark figure are we talking, for a two up, two across, castle in RL?

For you Bilbo, a special discount of £3,500,000 would suffice for the foundations with a roof on them, as you would no doubt spend a lot of time in the dungeon... LOL The discount is because I wouldn't have to untie the ladders.

I have seen some talented builders throw together scaled down versions "dollhouse sized" of what they plan to build. That impressed me and made me feel better about what they had in mind.

Um . . . $4000 is not peanuts, and yes, you can buy reasonably priced houses and get perfect,detailed, obviously time-consuming work.

In this case, though, it's all water under the bridge. I'm with the person who said delete the castle, consider it an unfortunate loss, and try to forget the whole miserable experience.

coco

I know an exceptional custom builder

her process works like this

1) gets requirements

2) does the build

3) gets payment

4) turns prims over

I always thought her process was nice - since she didnt ask for money until the building was complete. And Never turned prims over till she was paid.

After Dark Prefab Houses (On Dragon Isle)has 2 very nice prefab castes for 600L or less. And you can rez the full size castle and walk around in it before you buy.

Just a FYI

I have 2 castles that I have created on Imagination Isle
Go and check them out at the rezzing vendor and if you like I ll give you one of them free
since you had so much grief. Both are COPY/Mod so they can make a good foundation for you to start off with.

Hey guys , I do not mean to defend anyone who has a poor attitude, builder or not, but just for the sakes for the non-builders, while 4K L seems like a lot, it really isn't. Depending on how much time it takes someone to build, anyone with real talent deserves more than 15 USD for an entire build especially if it takes a few hours. If we equate SL to the "New Web" and Builds to Web pages, than even 15 USD for an hour is still a cheap rate for builders. Mostly its the builders faults for not charging what they probably likely deserve [No one works for 5 dollars an hour these days] but I can understand why a builder would get annoyed if they are underpaid and are expected to hand over a perfect customized build. Obviously both are in the wrong, no need for anyone to act like that, but also, take care of your builders as if they were doing a real job. Main reason people don't charge as much to build is because it is fun in the process as well, but always equate the time it takes to build to real world dollars. You pay someone 15 USD for a job that takes 3-5 hours, you get what you pay for.

I have some news for you, those certain persons who may be too quick to be on the side of the builder herself in question, sympathizing since you too are builders and know how hard it is and how much work and time is put into aligning prims just right, and so on, working from scratch. Well, it turns out she basically didn’t work from scratch after all (at least not technically). I’m sorry I failed to mention this in my first post, but I was so caught up in my anger that I missed divulging quite a few relevant details I really should have made note of. In fact, wouldn’t you know it, the freebie castle that Gaybot Foxley (thank you so much for sending me that, btw. What a helpful little homoboticus you are! *strokes your antennae fondly*) (er..oops, perhaps we shouldn’t do this *here* on the public forum..*impish grin*) sent me turned out to be the very same freebie Alpine castle that the builder bitch in question worked from it as a base, making some mostly very slight (not too major) modifications to, resizing and adding one more story to. Additionally she was using the SkizPrims system, no ordinary prims, if that’s of any interest to any of you lot also.

Also, I should note that I did in fact beforehand, take her to a prefab castle I saw somewhere for sale but that was unfortunately no modify so I couldn’t make the alterations I wanted for her to make to it. She promised me she would keep that in mind as a base idea to work with, but then quickly changed *her* mind when she got back to my land parcel and insisted that the castle she had would end up looking a lot better than that one I wanted, and her way would produce the better, lower prim results in general. Well I can’t say I wasn’t tempted, naturally, at the prospect of ending up with a castle that would take up significantly less prims than the majority of prefab castles (at least the best quality ones) around SL do. But then well…you know what happened, as I believe I already explained well enough.

But I would really like to take the time now to thank everyone here, at least those of you who were giving me helpful suggestions, recommendations, and general support instead of just being too quick to sympathize with the builder and make me feel a bit like I was the one in the wrong, erhem. I want you people to know that I’m highly appreciative of their help and willingness to hear out my side of the story, and, with some of you anyway, be mostly on my side about this. Allana, you are absolutely *ace* for offering to give me the names of some talented builders, I just turned on the PMs and I wasn't even aware they were off by default setting (I rarely post in the forums, as you can see by my post count so far), so sorry about that. Anyway, you can feel free to send me names if you haven't already. This builder contacted me today (in IMs sent while I was offline) offering her services of building a castle for me, free of charge, and I'm wondering now if that might have had something to do with you? If not, I must thank you anyway for trying to give me some good names.

And Darkness, Sara, I will most certainly go and check out those prefab castles you recommended I look into, and thank you especially Sara for offering to give me one of them for free, for all my trouble. You're a doll, if you don't mind me saying. I just hope SL won't keep crashing every two minutes I spend inworld. There appears to be a major problem with signal loss from my wireless router so I'll have to sort this out before I can do much of anything in SL, I'm afraid. As eager as I am to get on this (my SL schedule is tighter than ever lately).

Well thank you all, once again. Cheers.

P.S.- Thanks Cocoanut, for coming to my defense on the matter of $4000L most certainly not being peanuts. Especially not for me. Since I live in Canada, and in Canadian $ the exchange is significantly higher than just under $20, it's actually closer to $30 that I have to pay. And that's a lot of money for me, in my particular financial situation.

Sorry you had such a bad experience, however I do not understand your reference to Skidz Primz. It is a very helpful tool when building.

Mozo,

I'm sorry this happened to you too, it sux. I cannot believe how unprofessional your builder was!

My own experience with a custom builder wasn't the best - I contracted this person to do build that was fairly simple - two floors, upper floor overlooking the lower, with a patio, sort of rustic country store - nothing as complex as a castle mind you.

Half way through the process the builder actually started getting on MY nerves as the builder's expetise tends towards huge, urban design and that preference kept creeping into my build. Whenever I would say "uh, this isn't quite what we talked about" the builder would tell me "Oh, but how much better it would look THIS way"... there was a constant power struggle going on.

I feel I was a good client - I didn't hang around watching this person work, only popped in once per day to see how it was going, only spoke up when the build started going off into urban nightmare zone. And, more often than not when I stopped in, the builder would be just hanging out chatting or dancing (yes dancing) with their significant other in my unfinished property.

Honestly, when the build was complete, I HATED it! Even with us chatting often and my redirecting the build, it still evolved into builder's vision, not mine. So, what did I do? I paid the fee, (5500L) politely thanked the builder for all of the hard work, and when it was all said and done, deleted that horrible thing. Lesson learned.

On a high note, I later found a wonderful pre-fab, they DO exist, and am happy with it. My prefab cost 1500L.

You're not alone, lots of us out that have lost lindens this way. Better to just take the hit (loss) and move on. My two cents.

Sol

I'm sorry Ace, but I gotta disagree with you on these two statments. 4000L in NOT peanuts, especially when you are getting treated with such disrespect. It's sounds like the builder was totally unprofessional and just not a very nice person. When I pay that much, I expect to get what I paid for as well as just basic polite professionalism.

Also, it IS possible to buy a prefab that is highly detailed, beautiful work. I have a couple myself and there are designers out there that specialize in that. Three names come to mind right off the top of my head just as I write this. And though not cheap, they were waaaay less than 4000L.

4000L is peanuts to pay a builder for a custom castle.

-However-

4000L sounds like FAR FAR too much money to have paid this particular builder for whatever mess she came up with.

Amateur builders dont deserve professional builder salaries.

Bad builders who accept decent money for shoddy half done work deserve banned, muted and chain orbited, not necessarily in that order.

Great idea.

I'll go one further, and borrow a page from modern software development methodologies (Scrum & Extreme Programming): If indeed you have someone doing significant custom work - say more than a day or two work, or more than L$20K or so, then break it down into small pieces. Do the shell, get paid for it, turn it over; do a room, get paid for it, turn it over, do the landscaping, get paid for it, turn it over.

By keeping it in small enough pieces, neither side has to worry about losing a huge amount of time or money over this.

Dude, sounds like a nightmare and I feel for ya.

I'm curious about this bit tho, as I'm also in Canada. I recently needed $4000L to buy my first 512, and it cost me $15USD, which converts to $17CAD and change...