Is there *any* legitimate use of self-replication?

I'm curious as to how this could absolutely require that an object replicate an exact copy of itself, that could not be done with a controller object replicating an arbitrary number of nodes. Can you elaborate on that a bit?

Please keep in mind that I'm only asking about *self* replication, not the ability to rez objects, which is a completely different issue in my mind. And I've already received a few good examples of legitimate uses, so the question has been sufficiently answered.

I also want to re-iterate my position for those who come new to the thread and don't read the whole thing: I am not asking this question to in any way imply a judgement on whether self-replication is good or bad, I simply wanted to know if there were legitimate uses, and clearly there are.

Indeed. I assume that you are posting this for the benefit of other readers of the thread, since I have already made it pretty clear that I am not advocating "breaking" anything or removing this functionality in any way.

But now I am curious, I have heard your name frequently and you seem to be a respected builder; What existing content do you have that uses self-replication?

The simplest (and probably least sim-intensive) solution is a recursive one. An object enters a new region and checks to see if there is another copy of itself in that region. If there is, the new one self-destructs. If not, it replicates itself once for each neighboring region except the one it came from, sends its children to their destinations, and the process repeats.

As any computer science student knows, recursive solutions can be very simple and powerful, but must be designed and implemented carefully to avoid infinite recursion.

Thanks. I carefully made sure I created the link correctly [or so I thought], but it might have broken when I *moved it* out of the list and into the main text.

...or I might just have goofed on the first try.Correct.

Yes, there is a reason why recursion is one of the core concepts in any programming curriculum, and it's power is unmistakeable

I also had not considered that it would be less sim-intensive, but I suppose now that you've mentioned it I think I can understand why that might be so.

[Edited to add:] Even so, in this case self-replication is used to simplify the process and be sim-friendly, but is not absolutely required.

The only thing I have that's been distributed to the public is this flamethrower I built a while back. (I'd show you but scripts have been turned off in SL right now heh)

So basically, the flame effect is self-replicating. You can use your flamethrower to light something (or someone) on fire. If anyone else were to brush up against someone (or something) that's on fire, they'll catch on fire too

If they ever reenable scripts, I think I have a demo set out in the Seburo firing range in Chartreuse. (Landmark in my profile picks) So you can see self-replication in action

Of course, I have built-in safeguards so the flame is never replicated out of control.

I showed it to Cory Linden once - I think it was the first time he'd seen true self-replication in SL. He warned me, "If you break my SL, I'm going to come and hunt you down." I wonder how he feels about the rash of grid attacks we've been seeing.

Edit: Forgot to mention: Xylor Baysklef's XyObjects was this really awesome prim building tool that used self-replication. Tragically, the Grey Goo fence breaks it, when it's rezzing more complex objects.

DOH!!! Boy I feel like a newb again! Of course, I have the Compact Exploder, no wonder the name was familiar.

I would like to see that flamethrower, please do set up that demo

Let me get this straight - griefers can open up 10 new accounts each day now with no verification whatsoever. They'll use whatever they can think of to cause harm. And instead of getting rid of these terrorists, by IP ban or by requiring some sort of identity verification, now certain scripting possibilities are the devil? What about objects that are already out for sale, perhaps bought by hundreds of customers, that make legitimate use of the functions you want to see removed? Who will possibly compensate the crafters of those objects and their customers?

Are you posting out of frustration, and didn't read the thread? I never suggested any functions be removed. Please take the time to read the thread, I think you'll find that my position is very different than what you think it is

[Edited to be nicer, I sounded like a jerk]

Thing is... are you willing to do without fancy vendors and re-rezzing balls and all the fun and good things you can do with self-replicating objects - just to have the game up and running on a daily basis?

That's really the question here.

Or is there a way in LSL to do all those coolio things in another fashion that doesn't give griefers a handy tool?

LL weighs in that self-replication is a necessary evil and must continue to be implemented no matter what the griefer smacktards tend to use it for.

How can I say this?

look at all the bandaid and barndooring thats going on. There isn't a single attempt to solve the problem at its source.

1. I see no word about finding alternative ways for yall to have your cake and eat it too
2. There doesn't seem to be anyone considering shutting down this free for all let the kiddies and griefers sign up and wreak havoc in SL
3. Grid down, grid up, grid down, grid up, logins down, logins up, grid down, grid up etc etc

Again, somebody posting without realizing that I am in no way suggesting removing or even modifying existing functionality. I wanted to know the answer for intellectual curiosity and nothing more. Jeez.

I now really wish I had never asked a question that was going to be so frequently misunderstood

You can't really blame people for misunderstanding

News Headlines:

- Man stabbed in the eye with pencil!

Later that day, person asks on forum:

- Is there a legitimate use for Pencils?

It's obvious the person asking the question feels that there isn't a legimate use for pencils and is suggesting that all pencils be removed. But you seem a pleasant chap and you probably just phrased your question incorrectly. Now you'll just have live with it

Maybe you should've asked - "What interesting things have people used self replication for?"?

Or even a short but sweet:

"Who likes object sex?"

Well perhaps I should have asked "what interesting things..." since that really is what I meant, but since I am not psychic and there was no known replicator attack when I posted my question (all anybody knew at that point is that logins were disabled), I just wish that people could be bothered to actually read before posting. And that other people could be less caustic and quit trolling and making completely pointless comparisons.

lol

Well I love you...

x

How nice for you I do wish you'd have quoted the nicer edit instead of the smartass original post

Actually yes. I only quickly skimmed through the posts after reading the first page; usually I read all of it before joining a discussion. Sorry for that.

You have to admit though that asking if there's a legitimate use for any game feature or function indicates that there is none, with the ultimate goal of removing a possible threat. But the only threat in SL are unverified terrorists that can't be banned. Every function is surely legitimate, otherwise it wouldn't have been implemented.

Well, since the Lindens have proven that the magic million to bamboozle the idiots with cash, er venture capitalists, is the most important thing in their universe....I am forced to answer those questions - YES!

Yes, I would do without that fancy vendor, does me jack good if the game is down.
Yes, I would do withot re-rezzing balls, again they do me no good if the game is down.
Yes, none of the wonders the techie programmers drool over do shit for me if the game is down (3 lockdowns today and counting).

The bells and whistles are NICE, don't get me wrong...but since LL is utterly abdicating their responsibility to the paying customers to chase more VC money via fake milestones made up of freeloaders and hackers, we're between a rock and a hard place. For my own part, I wish King Phil would just sell the game to someone else....the only people that could run it worse than him and his minions would be Sony.

Well, okay, interesting way to put it. There are several lsl functions that I cannot think of uses for, but I suppose that you are right. There must be a reason that they are there, and it's just not something that comes to mind right away.

I've been bashing my head against the wall, trying to solve what I've dubbed the "matryoshka connundrum"..

The problem was.. that the old "put Object B into Object A" theory simply wouldn't work, because that object B would not have anything in it's inventory.. So we put C into B and B into A.. and start it up.. then when we get to C.. Empty.. No combination of "Object B into A" would work logically.. because you have to start someplace.. and like matryoshka dolls... eventurally there's a doll that can't be opened.

I did some research, because I'm fairly inquisitive.. and I hate "unsolvable problems"... I discovered instructions on the wiki for how this "self replication" thing actually works.

Basically it's made up of two functions.

1. Rez a prim with a script in it.
2. Give that child a copy of itself in it's inventory.

Now we all know the value of allowing a script to rez an object. Put simply, without that ability, nearly every "arrow based" vendor would break. You couldn't "touch a flagpole" to rez the flag, or any of 1000 other uses for rezzing.. (bullets, missiles, example vehicles vendors, footprints, etc etc etc).. SL would become a very dull, static place fairly quickly, and shops with large amounts of product would go out of business quickly if they were forced to have one prim on site, per product (been to Canimal or Curious Kitties?? imagine that in every store.. a sim-sized sea of single panel vendors)

On the surface, the second part of this.. seems kind of functionless. I mean "why would an object NEED to give inventory to another object? what possible use could this have?

Well I sat and wracked my brain on it, then I contacted Amethyst about exchanging a collar I had bought, and it hit me... UPDATERS. Without the simple ability for prim object A, to insert something into prim object B's inventory.. since LSL cannot WRITE to a file, the ability to update products would be shattered all across SL. I'm sure there are other uses as well for "give X to object".. one idea I came up with was a gun that would only fire bullets if you "purchased a clip" of them.

Are there legitimate uses outside of Artificial life? yes I think there are.. maybe not for SELF replication.. but for the tools that are used to affect self replication. Those tols CAN be used for ill prposes, and I don't think there's an easy way to get rid of the abusive use of good tools.. aside from actually stopping the abusers and making the grid less susceptible to problems when these things go off.

Genetic algorithms also come to mind as valid uses of recursion. You make several slightly different objects, then based on the fitness of the objects (the fitness value is calculated somehow, depending on the problem you're trying to solve) another generation is made from the strongest objects, involving randomly swapping parts of the "genes" of the objects. Eventually, several dozen (or hundred, or maybe even thousand and million) generations later, you'll get your final answer. But the key to population control is that with each generation, the previous generation is removed from the playing field, and only a set number of objects is made per generation. So at most there might be, say, 50 objects.

Genetic algoritms find equations pretty well in math, but they have applications for a lot of fields. There's an article explaining them on wikipedia.

is there not a way to limit replication in game? or woud that be too simple..?

There is. See Grey Goo Fence. Unfortunately, griefers have found ways to recruit innocent players to help them avoid the fence. You can help, by never ever rezing unknown objects in script-enabled locations.

and i admit it, but reading the grey goo fence, if it stops replication after 240 events, then how could a newb rezzing the same self replicator not be stopped at the same number?

Well several(?) systems are in place to limit replication at certain speeds. No instantly generating 5000 prims for instance. More than X calls a second, or Y calls in Z seconds will disable the script. It doesn't work though, as we can see, because to be tight enough to stop grey goo from being a menace it would stop legitimate uses like holovendors and rez foo.

There have been several suggestions on the forums earlier this year, like before the start of the summer months when there were a series of grey goo attacks (nowhere near as bad as this). Some of the suggestions require a new prim heirarchy be added, but that would mean a lot of complicated programming that has to be done right, or else it'll mean lots of unnecessary updates to the asset server's database to fix an already lengthy addition. It would likely take days to make the addition, considering how many prims exist in world. It would take days more if they had to fix it. x.x

But if they had heirarchies, you could have objects linked to objects, and eventually CSG could be implemented (see my signature for links explaining CSG). It would also allow you to build up complicated forms from simplier objects which you could recycle from other builds. Like say, each finger of a prim hand is an object, and they all are part of a hand object.