*cheapcheapcheap buybuybuy!!!*
Come buy my stuff, I will be happy to explain to anyone why it won't work properly in an open space sim.
Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive
These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE
Public Service Announcement re: Openspace sims |
|
|
ArchTx Edo
Mystic/Artist/Architect
Join date: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,993
|
09-22-2008 11:25
Come buy my stuff, I will be happy to explain to anyone why it won't work properly in an open space sim. _____________________
 VRchitecture Model Homes at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Shona/60/220/30 http://www.slexchange.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&MerchantID=2240 http://shop.onrez.com/Archtx_Edo |
|
Mjolnir Uriza
Hammer of the Gods
Join date: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 504
|
09-22-2008 11:52
Anyway; this thread was intended as a general public service announcement for everyone, not as an argument towards people who have had good luck with their openspaces so far. as in real life i think alot of people speamd many hours selling thereselfs on the preformane levvel when they are saving a few bucks i know severl people running crappy computes that they swear are fast machince becouse it was cheaper to buy ,when yu go to there house web pages don't load all that much faster than dial up when somebody has to tell you something like that ,that hard and often they are not trying to convince you but themselfs |
|
Snowflake Fairymeadow
Registered User
Join date: 21 May 2006
Posts: 704
|
09-22-2008 12:05
Sigh. Not this again. I don't know why people keep bringing up the old knowledgebase statement, because it simply isn't true. It's like saying, a 1/4 sim (16k sm parcel) should only be used for light use only, not for building, living, in, renting, etc. Which is obviously not true. There is *one* script that I have noticed running a bit slower on my openspace sim, but when I took the script to a sandbox, it was a bit faster, but not considerably faster. Yes, you have 1/4 the prims and 1/4 the processing power, more or less. It's really not much different than having a 1/4 sim. Sure on a 1/4 full sim you can use all the CPU resources * if nobody else is using it*. And that's the key statement. On a full sim, unless it is governed by a covenant, you never know what your neighbors will be doing, they may be hogging the sim resources anyway. Even if you say, okay well I see my neighbors and they're all nice and pleasant and there are no other laggy clubs... It's SL, and that can (and probably will) change in a couple of weeks. You state that you have indeed had problems with at least one script, and it did run faster when you took it to a sandbox. It's not just a knowledge base article. this is the description provided by LL upon actual purchase of an Openspace region. Like I said, I did not start the thread to argue, it is a public service announcement. I hope that it helps someone. |
|
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
|
09-22-2008 12:21
Just for historic record, that description was written back when all openspace regions were on class 4 hardware, during a time when just several avatars decked out as they are today would have brought *any* region to a screeching molasses-y lag halt. With class 4 openspaces I almost agree with the official position.
But nowadays the description is about as applicable to a modern openspace region, about the same way a mid-30's performance description of a Ford pickup truck applies today. Of course, though, I doubt the Company will change it. What could they possibly say? The description minimises liability, and yet people still use them. In fact, openspace usage is sharply on the rise, not any kind of decline. If they were truly anywhere near as bad as the official description, they wouldn't be the hottest land product on the grid as they are now, and have been since March. People notice performance pretty fast and would flee. But it's mainland they are abandoning, not openspace regions. _____________________
 Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon! |
|
Jade Angkarn
Always a Night Owl
Join date: 6 Oct 2006
Posts: 209
|
09-22-2008 12:26
on a 1/4 full sim you can see what is causing problems. On a opensim you cannot.... perhaps the other 3 opensims on your server are respecting LL's words and you end up with sever problems. If you are overusing your openspace LL will not help you. Its a gamble. I had a 4k sm parcel on one sim for over a year. When I started out, I was the second parcel-owner on the sim. Nice near-empty sim... sweet. Over the months, my neighbors kept changing. Constantly. At one point there were *4* clubs on the sim. The sim had no strict covenant as to how many clubs, or other types of businesses could reside on the sim. What could I do? I could have uprooted every time the sim seemed to be crowded. I chose not to do that and found that the 2nd Law of SL was generally on my side (e.g. most clubs last a maximum of 1 month). You state that you have indeed had problems with at least one script, and it did run faster when you took it to a sandbox. It's not just a knowledge base article. this is the description provided by LL upon actual purchase of an Openspace region. Like I said, I did not start the thread to argue, it is a public service announcement. I hope that it helps someone. I didn't have problems, I just noticed one script was running somwehat slow. It ran *slightly* faster in a full region. I'm not trying to argue, I'm disputing the notion that even LL has put out that OS sims are only good for "light use." This is simply not true; OS sims work well for moderate use. I don't know why LL hasn't updated that statement, because all across the grid, people are using OS sims... *successfully* ... for living, selling, dancing, and all sorts of things. I constantly have my eye on the statistics meter, including script time, and it's usually running very smoothly. |
|
Da5id Kronfeld
Registered User
Join date: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 33
|
09-22-2008 12:31
Pure speculation:
One possible difference between having an Openspace sim and 1/4 of a regular sim could be that in a regular sim you share the whole server's CPU resources so you could be using more than 1/4 of the total cycles for yourself ( if no one else needs them ). In an Openspace sim ( and this is pure speculation, but it's how I'd do it ) it may be that you're sandboxed in such a way that you'd never get more than 1/4 of the server's CPU cycles. That would be one way of keeping Openspace sims that share a physical server from interfering with one another, but it would have the side effect that a heavy script load would lag the sim where it might not if it were running on 1/4 of a regular sim. |
|
Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
|
09-22-2008 12:58
Another difference is that all sims, openspace and full, will want to run at 45FPS, even if there's nobody there..
Also, stuff like memory and disk access is shared by all sims on the physical host. On a full-sim host, that's 4 sims sharing these resources. On a opensim-host, it's 16. This probably isn't a big deal vs full-sim hosts unless (guessing) more than 4 sims are active at a given time. _____________________
Tired of shouting clubs and lucky chairs? Vote for llParcelSay!!!
- Go here: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1224 - If you see "if you were logged in.." on the left, click it and log in - Click the "Vote for it" link on the left |
|
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
|
09-22-2008 14:31
Jack insists that the description in the knowledgebase is true, ask him if you don't believe me.
However last time I saw a blog entry pushing them, there was no mention of these restrictions, the blog entry wasn't from Jack. They are selling well and if the performance issues were as worrisome as some believe we'd see a lot of threads about performance. I'd imagine "light use" is plentiful for most people and that light use amounts to more than the knowledgebase suggests. Linden Lab are selling openspaces knowing full well that they are being used in ways other than the description in the knowledgebase. I have one openspace and haven't had a complaint from my tenant...although rather more worryingly I haven't heard a peep from the tenant full stop! |
|
Dilbert Dilweg
Loading....
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 500
|
09-22-2008 14:45
There seems to be some confusion over the correct uses for openspace sims, so here is an explanation. People are reporting problems with scripted objects, and when checked, it is found they are living on an Openspace sim, possibly with several neighbors and even a club, with all kinds of scripts running. Some landlords are renting these without disclosing the pitfalls (or even that there is a difference), and content creators are bearing the brunt of explaining why the item you bought doesn't work. More than likely, it's because you are sharing resources with whoever is on your openspace, PLUS 3 more just like that one. They are not designed for heavy use. From the knowledge base: Normal regions run on their own dedicated CPU, but the Openspace regions run four per CPU; as you would expect, this limits their performance. Openspaces only ever share with other Openspaces on a server. It is therefore important to understand what these regions are. They are provided for light use only, not for building, living in, renting as homes or use for events. As a stretch of open water for boating or a scenic wooded area they are fine, but we do not advise more serious use than this and will not respond to performance issues reported should you not use them in this way. In other words, let the buyer beware. If you got a "fabulous bargain" on a huge chunk of estate land, and suddenly your objects don't work right any more, take a good look around. You may be on a sim that was not designed for the load it is carrying. I thought about posting something like this in the Land Sales and Rentals located @ /114/1.html. It would be good to inform other new users of the dangers that lurk in the back ground I have seen many land lords offering open space sims without disclosing the pitfalls _____________________
Founder of Sweethearts Singles Dating Site
http://date.sweetheartsjazz.com Visit our Social network Site http://www.sweetheartsjazz.com To Visit us in World Sweethearts jazz http://slurl.com/secondlife/Sweethearts/197/148/24 Love everyone  |
|
Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
|
09-22-2008 18:03
I was under the impression that the LL servers are quad core and when LL use the term CPU in this case it is referring to single core of a quad core server which means you are sharing a server with 15 other sims for an openspace sim.
Normal sims are one per core which means that you share 4 per server. The reason why virtualising the hardware does not mean that the sims are isolated completely is that ram and disk storage must still be shared. Even if each core has its own hard disk and is allocated its own dedicated ram allotment the server "bus" (the internal pipe that data flows down between different parts of a computer) must be shared between all ram and hard drives. |
|
Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
|
09-22-2008 18:28
I was under the impression that the LL servers are quad core and when LL use the term CPU in this case it is referring to single core of a quad core server which means you are sharing a server with 15 other sims for an openspace sim. Normal sims are one per core which means that you share 4 per server. Close.. They're twin, dual core. Two physical processor packages, each with dual core processors. The reason why virtualising the hardware does not mean that the sims are isolated completely is that ram and disk storage must still be shared. Even if each core has its own hard disk and is allocated its own dedicated ram allotment the server "bus" (the internal pipe that data flows down between different parts of a computer) must be shared between all ram and hard drives. Yes. I've been guessing for a while now that class 6 (7?) hardware would be CSI or something similar, instead of a more traditional FSB. |
|
Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
|
09-22-2008 18:31
Close.. They're twin, dual core. Two physical processor packages, each with dual core processors. Yes. I've been guessing for a while now that class 6 (7?) hardware would be CSI or something similar, instead of a more traditional FSB. I agree on the FSB issue but dedicated buses for each CPU? Thats always going to be expensive and LL are going to try to get as much money as possible from class 5's for a long time to come I think. They would be crazy to start upgrading during the current economic downturn. |
|
Alicia Sautereau
if (!social) hide;
Join date: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,125
|
09-22-2008 18:34
the issue is not if it`s an open sim or not as i`ll bet most of the people (knowingly or not), just use it for their homes or/with a shop
the issue is that *some* people use it like a normal sim (wich if they used would still not be a lag free place to visit) on a void 2.5months and hardly using scripts, the scripts i use are lightweight, on a timer or waiting for some sort of user interaction, heck, my ao uses more resources then all scripts combine (~15 eps) allways the mainlanders...  on the cpu note: 4 normal sims per server, each with it`s own cpu 16 voids per server, 4 per cpu if your unlucky and there is a "mainland" club on 1 cpu you share with, there`s a change your void will lag, shared hosting and the club needs the resources to lag you out open a couple of heavy programs and make them all do something, they`ll all lag compared to smooth running if you only use 1 |
|
Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
|
09-22-2008 18:39
OK but just for everyone's benefit that still equates to 4 cores in the server. Yes. Quad core and twin dual-core _are_ different things, though.  I agree on the FSB issue but dedicated buses for each CPU? Thats always going to be expensive and LL are going to try to get as much money as possible from class 5's for a long time to come I think. They would be crazy to start upgrading during the current economic downturn. I would bet that they're already playing with class 6 hardware internally, though it may not be a giant change from class 5. As for losing FSB, if you look at Intels roadmap, 8-way packages are not that far away. Even higher-end consumer boxes have quad cores today.. At some point down the road, it's going to be smarter for LL to look to stuffing 8 or 16 sims into a each blade. With that many cores in a host, CSI (or some other NUMAish tech) will make a lot more sense than FSB. |
|
Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
|
09-22-2008 18:44
Yes. Quad core and twin dual-core _are_ different things, though. I would bet that they're already playing with class 6 hardware internally, though it may not be a giant change from class 5. As for losing FSB, if you look at Intels roadmap, 8-way packages are not that far away. Even higher-end consumer boxes have quad cores today.. At some point down the road, it's going to be smarter for LL to look to stuffing 8 or 16 sims into a each blade. With that many cores in a host, CSI (or some other NUMAish tech) will make a lot more sense than FSB. However if they take this strategy it is unlikely that each individual sim will see much if any increase in performance as the main exercise is to run around the same stuff on less hardware with around the same performance. I could see this being done as a cost cutting measure though. |
|
Dana Hickman
Leather & Lace™
Join date: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,515
|
09-22-2008 20:21
Agreed and the performance dynamics do differ - I just wanted to keep that part simple as LL is using "core' to determine the number of sims on a server. Yes, but the old openspace description people keep quoting "so we get it" (but not arguing lol) says 4 voids per CPU, not core.. which is untrue. If its a quad core, then its 4 voids per core, 16 per cpu... if its 2 dual cores then its still 4 voids per core, and 8 per cpu (times 2)... it's never 4 voids per cpu as is written. It's also worth mentioning that the virtual server software that regions run on DOES have some performance cost. On 4 full regions per server box, and 4 virtual servers running them it's not bad. For openspaces, quadruple the amount of land space needing to be rezzed (65536m X 16 instead of 4) and everything on it, quadruple the number of virtual server instances to run them (16 instead of 4), and what you end up with for a single openspace is NOT like 1/4 of a full regions performance or resources. As long as people recognize that, and use them like they were really 1/8 or less of a full sim, there'll be a lot less issues with them. |
|
Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
|
09-22-2008 20:37
Yes, but the old openspace description people keep quoting "so we get it" (but not arguing lol) says 4 voids per CPU, not core.. which is untrue. If its a quad core, then its 4 voids per core, 16 per cpu... if its 2 dual cores then its still 4 voids per core, and 8 per cpu (times 2)... it's never 4 voids per cpu as is written. It's also worth mentioning that the virtual server software that regions run on DOES have some performance cost. On 4 full regions per server box, and 4 virtual servers running them it's not bad. For openspaces, quadruple the amount of land space needing to be rezzed (65536m X 16 instead of 4) and everything on it, quadruple the number of virtual server instances to run them (16 instead of 4), and what you end up with for a single openspace is NOT like 1/4 of a full regions performance or resources. As long as people recognize that, and use them like they were really 1/8 or less of a full sim, there'll be a lot less issues with them. After all Windows shows CPUs in the Task Manager, not cores. |
|
Somatika Xiao
Cyan Energy Man
Join date: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 137
|
09-22-2008 20:43
*EDIT* Ay Dana Hickman hits it on the nose, thanks for explaning it much more smooth then I
*/EDIT*As a statement to what I have said in this forum thread, "Container" is not the word I should have used, more like it is contained and restricted to 25% of the cpu. 18% is more of an overall. Each sim has there own software to run on, if one sim goes down then the other 3 on the cpu will remain fine, they are all separate. Linden Lab I believe runs 4 regular sims per server. So there are 16 OpenSpaces per server. Each class 5 server has 4 cpu cores. So I grabbed my information from already public information from how we all know regular sims work. So sims are much like Virtual Dedicated Servers. and OpenSpace sms are the same just with less resources allocated to them. _____________________
Peace & Prosperity
Somatika |
|
Kathy Morellet
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 809
|
09-22-2008 20:43
Well, not to argue semantics as I agree with everything you said but, the folks that wrote the KB article were writers not techs and, when I bring up the task manager (XP) on my dual core machine and go to set affinity for a process it says CPU 0 and CPU 1 as opposed to Core 0 or Core 1.
Therefore, if I was writing the article, I might say 4 per CPU instead of 4 per core. So, I can understand the confusion some folks may have with this. |
|
Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
|
09-22-2008 20:48
Well, not to argue semantics as I agree with everything you said but, the folks that wrote the KB article were writers not techs... People frequently say things like this as a reason to get engineers to write documentation. They read the results of that then go and beg & plead for the writers to come back. |
|
Charlotte Bartlett
Registered User
Join date: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 97
|
09-23-2008 04:07
To get things straight the performance of one OpenSpace WILL NEVER EFFECT ANOTHER OpenSpace. Okay, now that is all clear. You can get a lot out of a OpenSpace, if you are smart about it. But people generally not that way. Think of it as 1/4 a sim, you and your 4 other neighbors live on 1/4 a sim. But because things are so spread out people like to put as much as they can to fill out there space, thus in general people put out to many scripted objects. I will be doing a thorough documentation of this on my blog when I purchase one. There are so many "myths" flying around that need to be debunked. Oh, and as to why they will never effect each other? well Linden Lab Virtualize ALL of there sims, each one in a contained container on that cpu. so in actuality you only get about 18% out of it, not 25% accounting for overhead. But I still hope to do amazing things with that 18% This sounds good! I think there is a huge gap in when a developer utilizes one of these (we do and have had zero performance issues) as scripts are planned, tested out and combined - to the residential use of them which is more random, and will have the majority users who are not optimizing scripts/interactivity generally as it's just that residential use. If you want any access to our data for the blog feel free to contact me in world. |
|
Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
|
09-23-2008 07:35
This sounds good! It does indeed! If only it were true.. :\ "It hasn't happened to me" is not at all the same as "it doesn't happen." _____________________
Tired of shouting clubs and lucky chairs? Vote for llParcelSay!!!
- Go here: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1224 - If you see "if you were logged in.." on the left, click it and log in - Click the "Vote for it" link on the left |
|
Cube Republic
Registered User
Join date: 6 Mar 2008
Posts: 9
|
09-24-2008 14:50
I think if your on the market for some land an open space is fine as long as your not going to run a zillion scripts on it. I have no problems with mine, and I use it as a light use store as well as my own private space. I love my open space as it gives me a large parcel, no neighbors, thus no eye sores to worry about, without the cost of an equivalent sized dino-sim. To add to this my landlady is nice to me and charges a fare tier. If you want to have a look at a nice open space sim build , open the map and look at Castle Valeria. Oh and while your there consider what you've read previously regarding Linden Labs official stance on open space sims, and then see who owns Castle Valeria...Governor Linden?
Have fun |
|
Zerock Parx
Registered User
Join date: 5 Jul 2008
Posts: 120
|
09-24-2008 15:18
I've always found this an interesing quote:
It is therefore important to understand what these regions are. They are provided for light use only, not for building, living in, renting as homes or use for events. As a stretch of open water for boating or a scenic wooded area they are fine Light use yes. But not for building, living on or much of anything at all? Not sure why one would pay monthly tier just to sink (most) of the land and rez a small boat to bounce off boundry walls near a small patch of "Scenic", ugly low-prim wooded area (They seem to suggest). I am suprised they don't quote "Avatars are not suported in these areas" LOL I have a low prim open area with a couple renters, small private club, run a few scripts and build houses to sell on the mainland. Yes, 3/4 is lake - and have no complaints about lag - at least no more than any other place in SL. No my sim will not support anything like a popular, busy club (etc) or a dozen prim-rezers or rental hi-rise. But as long as one knows what they have and stays within limits it will be alright. _____________________
Enjoying a new world
|
|
Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
|
09-24-2008 15:25
I've always found this an interesing quote: Light use yes. But not for building, living on or much of anything at all? Not sure why one would pay monthly tier just to sink (most) of the land and rez a small boat to bounce off boundry walls near a small patch of "Scenic", ugly low-prim wooded area (They seem to suggest). I am suprised they don't quote "Avatars are not spported in these areas" LOL I have a low prim open area with a couple renters, small private club, run a few scripts and build houses to sell on the mainland. Yes, 3/4 is lake - and have no complaints about lag - at least no more than any other place in SL. No my sim will not support anything like a popular, busy club (etc) or a dozen prim-rezers or rental hi-rise. But as long as one knows what they have and stays within limits it will be alright. I think what they are also saying is that 3750 prims over an area of 65K sqm should be fine if distributed reasonably sparsely and not all concentrated in one 2048 sized plot. Apart from the dense packing of prims it would encourage more densely packed concentrations of avs into a small area. The sim may not cope with that as well as say the same number of people sailing, flying, walking through a larger area to see what you have placed out. That last bit is pure speculation on my part though. |