What is child pornography?
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October McLeod
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05-11-2007 09:00
I hope the moderators don't mind, it is not my intention to drag out a heated arguement here. I simply want to post something for the sake of information. I would have posted this in the other thread, but it was locked before I could post this. Does sex child-like avatars in Second Life constitute child pornography? No, it does not (at least not in the United States, where Linden Labs is located. ). Feel free to lock this too if you wish, but please do not delete it. I feel it's important to the very heated topic of age play to under stand what exactly constitutes child pornography. From: someone In the United States, child pornography is prohibited under both federal and state laws with some state laws including more or less restrictive definitions compared with federal law. Under federal law, child pornography is defined as visual depiction of minors (i.e. under 1  engaged in a sex act such as intercourse, oral sex, or masturbation as well as the lascivious depictions of the genitals. In some court cases, the so-called "Dost factors" have been used to judge whether an image is child pornography. These are a list of six considerations originating in a 1986 court case, "United States vs. Dost". The six standards are: whether the focal point of the visual depiction is on the child's genital, pubic or anal areas whether the setting of the visual depiction is sexually suggestive, i.e., in a place or pose generally associated with sexual activity whether the child is depicted in an unnatural pose, or in inappropriate attire, considering the age of the child whether the child is fully or partially clothed, or nude whether the visual depiction suggests sexual coyness or a willingness to engage in sexual activity whether the visual depiction is intended or designed to elicit a sexual response in the viewer. However, the Dost factors are not held to be an absolute standard. In particular, the 1994 precedent United States vs. Knox set aside the question of nudity, stating that images of clothed children may also constitute a "lascivious exhibition." The ruling states: "The harm Congress attempted to eradicate by enacting the child pornography laws is present when a photographer unnaturally focuses on a minor child’s clothed genital area with the obvious intent to produce an image sexually arousing to pedophiles. The rationale underlying the statute’s proscription applies equally to any lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic area whether these areas are clad or completely exposed." There is no clear legal definition in federal or state law as to what exactly constitutes a "lewd" or "lascivious" exhibition. These terms are to be interpreted according to "contemporary community standards." Questions arose in late 1990s as whether the depiction of nudity of minors could constitute obscenity. After the U.S. Customs Service seized in 1998 over 200 nudist magazines sent from Europe that featured nude depictions of minors, a court case ensued in which an appellate court ruled in 2000 that depictions of nude minors engaging in activities otherwise normal for their age cannot be held obscene. The court based its ruling partly on a previous Supreme Court ruling that had concluded that nudity in and of itself does not constitute obscenity. Texts are not considered child pornography in USA, because, the court has ruled repeatedly that the only valid basis for laws restricting free speech in this way is actual damage to real children. Any text or work that involves or depicts no real child, (and is not otherwise "obscene" , is never illegal. (see Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition).As with all cases, courts must interpret the law and apply it to the specifics of a case. As such, the final decision as to whether an image is pornographic is made by a judge. Since the context of the image may indicate the sexual nature of the image, the nature or even name of the website on which it is displayed may be considered. Cases of pornography involving court-adjudicated minors over the age of 18 or adults under age of 18 (emancipated minors) are rare or nonexistent. Accordingly, the application of state and federal laws to these cases is uncertain. For the sake of making this post as clean as possible I've focused solely on the United States. The article I have reference cites standards for a few other countries (Canada, Australia, Germany, the United Kingdom), but is by no means exaustive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography
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Denise Bonetto
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05-11-2007 09:27
The recent problems highlighted by the German media were definately in context of child pornography.
i) The advertisment for second life shown on a different paedophile site ii) The events shown took part in a 'brothel' with several child avs having sex with adult male avs while other child avs hung around iii) The reporter was invited to a group of quite a large membership for this 'brothel' iv) Real child porn was sent to the reporter
I live in the UK where if those images were captured on my screen, even accidently, I could be in deep trouble, including a prison sentance.
So many shouting about how it's not illigal in the US, but a lot of countries could actually block SL if it allows this to go on.
Who should have the most support, US paedophiles or 2/3 of the present grid (only say US paedophiles as the other countries will not have access)
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Ciaran Laval
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05-11-2007 09:34
"Texts are not considered child pornography in USA, because, the court has ruled repeatedly that the only valid basis for laws restricting free speech in this way is actual damage to real children. Any text or work that involves or depicts no real child, (and is not otherwise "obscene"  , is never illegal. (see Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition)." You are ignoring the otherwise obscene part. Your quote in no way suggests that such images are not illegal in the United States.
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Alexa Susanto
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05-11-2007 09:36
If a man in SL is not a paedophile, what is the attraction of having sex with child-like avs?
I can't think of any logical explanation why they would want to do it and presumed females who play in child avatars - I hope their own child is never molested by a paedophile in real life. My sister's youngest daughter was by a family friend and she has never got over it. Most men would find it repugnant. I find it repugnant regardless of laws.
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Usagi Musashi
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05-11-2007 09:43
Again? they closed on thread because of stupid remarks in it and this will follow soon! Please instead starting problems maybe learn and your mistakes! GESH! Stupid Stupid people!
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Gummi Richthofen
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05-11-2007 09:46
From: Denise Bonetto I live in the UK where if those images were captured on my screen, even accidently, I could be in deep trouble, including a prison sentance. This is the supposed situation, yes: in theory, you cannot offer a defence of accidental exposure to the material, because of course, that's what every accused person says - "well yer honner, I was sittin there an' it all just appeared, like". Bizarrely, this even covers those who delete the material as soon as they recognise it for what it is. In practice, whenever the trials of internet pornsters are covered, the police go to great lengths to ensure that the public knows that thousands of images are involved - so nobody has actually been slammed just for mistakenly seeing one image. Where the state of non-US laws may cause trouble is in "support". If SL is known as "a place where sex offenders are generally found" then other sexual allegations become stronger: not a problem where you are law-abiding, generally, except for the marked and continuing tendency for over-excited law enforcement persons to construct cases on very little initial evidence.
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October McLeod
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05-11-2007 09:47
From: Ciaran Laval "Texts are not considered child pornography in USA, because, the court has ruled repeatedly that the only valid basis for laws restricting free speech in this way is actual damage to real children. Any text or work that involves or depicts no real child, (and is not otherwise "obscene"  , is never illegal. (see Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition)." You are ignoring the otherwise obscene part. Your quote in no way suggests that such images are not illegal in the United States. I hereby direct you to the Miller Test: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_TestFrom: someone The Miller test is the United States Supreme Court's test for determining whether speech or expression can be labeled obscene, in which case it is not protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and can be prohibited.
The Miller test was developed in the 1973 case Miller v. California. It has three parts:
Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions specifically defined by applicable state law, Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary and/or artistic, political, or scientific value. The third condition is also known as the (S)LAPS test ((Serious) Literary, Artistic, Political, Scientific). The work is considered obscene only if all three conditions are satisfied.
For legal scholars, several issues are important. One is that the test allows for community standards rather than a national standard. What offends the average person in Mobile, Alabama, may differ from what offends the average person in New York City. The relevant community, however, is not defined.
Another important issue is that Miller asks for an interpretation of what the "average" person finds offensive, rather than what the more sensitive persons in the community are offended by, as obscenity was defined by the previous test, the Hicklin test, stemming from the English precedent.
Because it allows for community standards and demands "serious" value, some worried that this test would make it easier to suppress speech and expression. They pointed out that it replaced a stricter test asking whether the speech or expression was "utterly without redeeming social value"--a much tougher standard than "serious" value. As used, however, the test generally makes it difficult to outlaw any form of expression. Much pornography has been successfully argued to have some artistic or literary value.
Some critics of obscenity law argue that the existence of Miller proves that federal obscenity laws are in fact not defined, and thus unenforceable and legally dubious.
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Ylikone Obscure
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05-11-2007 09:48
For many people, child sexual is the absolute worst thing you can do in regard to crime. Murder is not as bad, torture is not as bad, bestiality is not as bad... nothing else is as bad as harming an innocent child.
Regardless of whether computer generated children being used sexually is a grey area in the US or not, it is still morally disgusting. If you get sexually aroused by the thought of playing with little kids, there is something wrong with you, no exceptions. How much more easy will roleplaying sexual child abuse in SL make it for a pedophile to attempt it RL?
So, can sexual ageplay in SL be regarded as child pornography. My answer is yes, quite definitely.
(and LL has the right to ban anyone caught doing it, it's their game afterall)
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Jax Huskerdu
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pretty obvious I think
05-11-2007 09:53
Anything portraying a child in a sexual situaltion. If it's animated, it's a porno cartoon (there are a few out there ie. fritz the cat: rated x). I personally find it repunant, but try to leave the judging to the bible bangers. I do admit, though, that the first time two cihld AV's walked up to me and asked if I'd be their Mommy, I was kinda skeeved.
I'm a bit torn as to the ageplay situation though. While I don't like the idea of it, adult people in RL sometimes dress in babys and diapers and do the same thing. It makes me really uncomfortable knowing that people could machima some pretty sick stuff involving kids that could possibly fuel the urges of a pediphile and cause them to actually take action. That actually concerns me more than a couple of adults trying something different or acring out a pshychological drama that somehow brings relief to the psyche.
Just my two cents.
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Ciaran Laval
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05-11-2007 09:56
"As used, however, the test generally makes it difficult to outlaw any form of expression. Much pornography has been successfully argued to have some artistic or literary value."
Sorry but again, there's nothing in your quote that suggests that these images wouldn't be illegal in the United States. They are certainly not artistic, most people would find them offensive.
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SqueezeOne Pow
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Red October
05-11-2007 10:00
haha Wikipedia isn't a very good legal resource ESPECIALLY considering how it's been in the news in recent months. Let's look at the FBI's website where they detail how they prosecuted a man for having anime with imagery of children in sexual situations. http://www.fbi.gov/page2/march06/obscenity031006.htm Let's draw your attention to this paragraph... "The law, designed to help protect children from sexual exploitation, makes it a federal crime to produce or distribute obscene drawings, cartoons, paintings, or any other visual representations involving the sexual abuse of children." Everything on SL is an image. It's all pixels...you mentioned that before. Well, according to US Federal law images of children (real or not) in sexual situations is child porn and therefore illegal. I don't know why you keep at this, October.
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Oryx Tempel
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05-11-2007 10:00
So if a buddy of mine visits Japan and buys a book of anime that contains DRAWINGS of FICTIONAL children having sex (these books are openly displayed at knee height in many bookstores in Japan), and brings it back to the US, is he now guilty of child pornography or contributing to it, or whatever?
It's certainly in dubious taste, but is it pornography? No actual children were depicted. None were used as models (for anime? Come on!)
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Zaphod Kotobide
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05-11-2007 10:19
I keep seeing people go out of their way to point out that this child avatar sex thing is technically legal in the United States. So? Linden Lab seeks to position Second Life as a global platform, and as has been mentioned several times now in all these disjointed conversations, there are laws of other countries which they must understandably take into consideration when developing and refining policy. Furthermore, I'd love to see the miller test applied to a scene of child avatars having sex with adult avatars in Second Life. I'm willing to bet that it would fail. Pornography in general can pass muster, as it is a depiction, photographic or drawn, of adults. Add the depiction of a child into the mix, and you'll have a much more difficult time. And I don't mean grown women with pony tails and little girl clothes, I mean specifically these Second Life avatars looking unambiguously like actual children. Surely the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find such a thing patently offensive. Sorry October, motion for summary judgement denied. Case will proceed to trial. From: Ylikone Obscure (and LL has the right to ban anyone caught doing it, it's their game afterall)
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October McLeod
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05-11-2007 10:56
From: SqueezeOne Pow haha Wikipedia isn't a very good legal resource ESPECIALLY considering how it's been in the news in recent months. Let's look at the FBI's website where they detail how they prosecuted a man for having anime with imagery of children in sexual situations. http://www.fbi.gov/page2/march06/obscenity031006.htm Let's draw your attention to this paragraph... "The law, designed to help protect children from sexual exploitation, makes it a federal crime to produce or distribute obscene drawings, cartoons, paintings, or any other visual representations involving the sexual abuse of children." Everything on SL is an image. It's all pixels...you mentioned that before. Well, according to US Federal law images of children (real or not) in sexual situations is child porn and therefore illegal. I don't know why you keep at this, October. I love how people keep quoting that misinformed page. I have read the text of the law mentioned there. Not some blurb on a webpage, not a Wikipedia article, the text of the law itself. It simply does not support the claim made on that page.
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October McLeod
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05-11-2007 11:04
From: Alexa Susanto If a man in SL is not a paedophile, what is the attraction of having sex with child-like avs? I'm not arguing paedophillia here. I'm arguing what is legally defined as child pornography and what is not. Let's keep the issue clear. From: someone I can't think of any logical explanation why they would want to do it and presumed females who play in child avatars - I hope their own child is never molested by a paedophile in real life. My sister's youngest daughter was by a family friend and she has never got over it. Most men would find it repugnant. I find it repugnant regardless of laws. As is your right. However you have no right to dictate what consenting adults can and cannot do when said activities are allowed under the law. Personally I find lots of things repugnant.
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SqueezeOne Pow
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05-11-2007 11:05
Yeah I guess the FBI's website would be misinformed about federal law.
*rolls eyes*
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SqueezeOne Pow
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05-11-2007 11:08
From: October McLeod However you have no right to dictate what consenting adults can and cannot do when said activities are allowed under the law. Personally I find lots of things repugnant. ...except for how you've been shown repeatedly that said activity is NOT allowed under the law. Just because you misinterpret it doesn't mean it's not the law. Hell, you have yet to cite the actual section of the law you're referring to that makes simulated child sex imagery legal.
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October McLeod
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05-11-2007 11:17
From: SqueezeOne Pow ...except for how you've been shown repeatedly that said activity is NOT allowed under the law. Just because you misinterpret it doesn't mean it's not the law. No, I have demonstrated how it is permissable under the law. From: someone Hell, you have yet to cite the actual section of the law you're referring to that makes simulated child sex imagery legal. There is no section that explicitly states it is legal. Law doesn't work like that. Law does not state what is legal, the law states what is not legal. Anyway, I posted this for the sake of information, as in the previous thread you had everyone trying to define what is child pornography. I have show here what the law states. Silly me for hoping this could stay rational and logical and not devolve into another emotion-fueled witch hunt. Now I'm done with this.
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Zaphod Kotobide
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05-11-2007 11:18
If "Miller", he/she is referring to case law, not statute. Miller v CaliforniaFrom: SqueezeOne Pow ...except for how you've been shown repeatedly that said activity is NOT allowed under the law. Just because you misinterpret it doesn't mean it's not the law. Hell, you have yet to cite the actual section of the law you're referring to that makes simulated child sex imagery legal.
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SqueezeOne Pow
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05-11-2007 11:24
From: October McLeod No, I have demonstrated how it is permissable under the law. A wikipedia link doesn't count. From: October McLeod There is no section that explicitly states it is legal. Law doesn't work like that. Law does not state what is legal, the law states what is not legal.
uh...ok. From: October McLeod Silly me for hoping this could stay rational and logical and not devolve into another emotion-fueled witch hunt. Uh...are you being hunted here? Is there something you're trying to justify for yourself or something? I don't get that remark. Could you at least put up a link to this law you've read instead of resorting to insults? It looks like you're the one getting emotional this time. I'm just working with logical deduction from information that's been made available to me.
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SqueezeOne Pow
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05-11-2007 11:28
From: Zaphod Kotobide If "Miller", he/she is referring to case law, not statute. Miller v California Could you be more specific with what you're talking about? That link showed the appeal was denied.
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October McLeod
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05-11-2007 11:28
From: SqueezeOne Pow Uh...are you being hunted here? Is there something you're trying to justify for yourself or something? I don't get that remark. Come on? You haven't seen the endless "OMG! I think thats sick so it should be banned" posts that have been going on for months on end here? From: someone Could you at least put up a link to this law you've read instead of resorting to insults? I have insulted no one here. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c108:6:./temp/~c108hkq96Y::From: someone It looks like you're the one getting emotional this time. Nope, calmly bowing out of a discussion before it turns into another 40 page clusterfuck.
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Mickey McLuhan
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05-11-2007 11:31
From: SqueezeOne Pow A wikipedia link doesn't count. From: someone There is no section that explicitly states it is legal. Law doesn't work like that. Law does not state what is legal, the law states what is not legal. uh...ok. Did you miss how this works? Innocent until proven guilty? Nothing is illegal until it is made illegal by the law. The burden of proof is on those saying it's illegal, not on those saying it isn't. From: someone Uh...are you being hunted here? Is there something you're trying to justify for yourself or something? I don't get that remark.
Yet another accusation from you. A left-handed accusation. You've done this before. It's disgusting. From: someone Could you at least put up a link to this law you've read instead of resorting to insults? It looks like you're the one getting emotional this time. I'm just working with logical deduction from information that's been made available to me.
This, sir, is bullshit. The links have been posted repeatedly on the other threads. You have read them, or have purported to have read them in other threads. This is disingenuous and annoying.
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SqueezeOne Pow
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05-11-2007 11:31
That isn't a valid link. Could you try again please?
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Rusty Satyr
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05-11-2007 11:31
To me the important issue is drawing a line:
If someone relies on illusion to commit a crime... fine punish them for the harm they do to others.
Child porn exploits children. Trafficking/purchasing child porn supports that criminal ?business?. Definitely wrong. Definitely criminal. Because proof of purchase can be tricky to obtain... therefore even OWNERSHIP of child porn is simply considered sufficient proof of purchase. True or not, I can agree with that reasoning and agree that they should be illegal and transgressors should be punished.
Paintings often require models, or photographs, if ownership of photos is sufficient proof of supporting child pornographers, then likewise derivative works can probably be seen that way too.
At what point does it become victimless? It does... somewhere.
That point must be defended. There are those that will continue to add "well if this is illegal than that is illegal too" into law to forbid things they don't like... that harm no one. A simple emotional case like child porn can set horrible precedents for other issues. Either we defend freedoms, even if we don't personally agree with each of them, or we lose them one by one.
It is *Stupid* to criminalize "illusion". The question is, where does reality stop and illusion begin?
Avatars are not children. Nor are they adults. They don't have innocence to lose, they don't have childhoods to destroy. They are projections of us in a simulated world.
We should be free to imagine whatever we want... as long as it hurts no one.
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