The only legit use of copybots-couldn't we already do that?

First off, I have attempted to go to my favorite stores, such as Panache and Nymphetamine. I cannot even shop. I waited to get the weekly stipend and now I can't shop. For those who say that the copybot is blown out of proportion, please consider the effects on those honest people in SL who can no longer find simple enjoyment in shopping for things in SL that they otherwise couldn't afford in RL. I love shopping for clothes in SL, a great alternative for a broke college kid who can't afford new clothes in RL.
Secondly, (and this is where my question is) Blue said that the legitimate reason for the copy bot is that the creator of an object can make copies of his/her object with copybot. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't we already do that? I mean, what about shift-copying in edit mode? or simply copying in inventory? I dont see why a tool that poses so much controversy and can only be essentially used to violate copyright, needs to be introduced into SL with it's sole legitimate purpose being something that was already available through SL tools already provided that didnt pose security and/or copyright issues. Am I just not getting it??

OK. Here's a legitimate use of CopyBot:

I have a friend who made a cool avatar. We discover that there is a critical flaw in it that needs to be fixed asap. Problem is, my friend is away on sabbatical (or worse, died recently), and there is no expectation that we can get her access to her account and fix the problem for some time, if at all. I have her written permission (or written permission from her estate executor) to copy & fix the avatar and put it back up for sale for her.

Now, the Captain Obvious wannabees in the audience will say "tough noogies! she should have given you a full-permed copy!!". Sure, that's true, but that observation is based on HINDSIGHT, which every Captain Obvious knows is 20/20.

Instead, enter CopyBot. I load it up, make a copy of her avatar, fix the problem, and put it back up for sale as agreed. Problem solved.

One valid, non-infringing use of said nasty program...

Ok, so to make a copy of her avatar, someone has to log into her acct so the copybot can copy it. couldnt that person just give you copy?

OK, first, let me introduce myself. I'm an aggressive pro-copyright person. I exposed the abuse of X-Flight, I oppose the use of textures ripped from videogames, I have informed content creators when I believed their content was being ripped off. I may be the only person I know whose music library doesn't include songs downloaded from *ster or other P2P networks (you know the ones I'm talking about). I'm not some "information must be free" wackjob.

That said, programs like copybot have legitimate uses. I haven't used it, but I can see circumstances where even I might. here's some cases over the past year where I would have been able to use programs like copybot legitimately:

1. To recover a build that has been deeded to group with the wrong permissions, so it can be fixed.

2. To recover my own content that I've lost access to because of a permissions bug. This didn't hapen to me, but it did happen to a friend, and the Lindens refused to help them - yes, they knew the bug was real, but they couldn't be absolutely sure the permissions had been what they claimed.

3. To repair damaged content that I've bought and the creator isn't willing to fix.

4. To restart a buggy script in a vehicle that's no-mod, that I used to be able to restart from the menu, but that ability was removed in a recent update.

5. To extract true texture colors to match a build or object I own.

6. To replace a broken script in a no-mod vehicle with a completely independently written version.

7. To use a no-mod vehicle as a prop on a build without lagging the sim down by scripts left running by the creator. You used to be able to pull the scripts out, but that ability has been removed in a later update - an update that removed legitimate fair-use rights.

8. Replace a script that the creator did not have the right to use with one that can legally be used in the product. Yes, I really have found products that are using scripts illegally, scripts I'm quite capable of replacing if the object wasn't no-mod. The creators have shown no interest in helping.

None of these actions violate the creator's rights. They are all either essential for using products I bought or created, or for creating new content to work with them. The last item would allow me for the first time to use a product I bought _without_ being party to a copyright violation!

I suppose so, and giving your password out is a TOS violation...

1) Call LL. Slower but still a way to fix that.

2) See #1

3) Not really. Any content that might need "fixed" will usually be scripted. CopyBot does not copy scripts or textures. Only prim builds.

4) See #3

5) See #3. The textures are applied to the prim build during copy. You don't actually get teh textures in the process.

6) See #3

7) You can pull scripts out of a NoMod build. You just can not put them back in.

See #3

No go do your homework and learn what this thing is first. It is a theft device only, with no true "legitimate" use.

~Jessy

Yeah, if anything it is an illegitimate tool with a few legitimate uses, not vice-versa.

I can see legit uses of Copybot. I really can.

I can also see legit uses of boxcutters on airplanes. I know, that's a really bad example.

But the point is, they banned boxcutters from airplanes because the potential of damage greatly outweighs any legit use of them.

The problem here is not Copybot, let's be honest about this. We all knew this was coming, and this could happen. The problem is the destruction of the confidence of creators.

It's not that our stuff can be copied and resold that's the problem. Well that is a major problem, and it's the main underlying problem. The problem we all face is there's literally nothing that can be done about it. If someone steals our stuff and sells it, LL isn't going to stop it. If they do happen to stop it, they're not going to stop it in time before it destroys the business.

The only thing the creator can do is create more, better stuff. But would they have the motivation anymore? They've been burned by the system, they're probably not going to touch it again.

And what's going to happen to SL when all the creators leave? I mean look, folks, artists are very territorial, emotional people. Right or wrong, you can see the reaction of the creative community here.

If LL isn't going to stop Copybot, which they admit they aren't, the least they can do is show that they're on our side. They could try to help boost confidence by letting us know that they will be there for us, they will help stop unauthorized use. They haven't done any of this. Telling us it's a TOS violation does nothing. I've seen a lot of TOS violations that rarely, if ever, get taken care of.

The problem is not that copybot exists. The problem is that LL shows they don't care about their users, their work, and their rights.

No, I have a permissions limited copy I can use to get a full-permed copy, or one of her customers does, or there's a copy sitting out at her store, or...

Kettle, thou art blackened!

I assure you, Argent probably knows more about what it does than 99.999% of the userbase.

Somehow, I don't think you fit into the same 0.001%.

I'll touch on the ones that are really unreasonable to object to:

1&2) If you created the object, you can do with it as you please. If you want copybot to copy it, that's your perogative as the original creator. It's your content, you can definitely grant yourself the right to copy something you created.
Whether this use alone is enough reason for copybot to be seen as a legitimate tool rather than something aimed solely at falicitating stealing was never the topic of this thread. Argent never argued it made the existance of copybot alright, he argued that this is a legitimate use and it is.

You're missing the fact that object in this case is violating whatever license the script was released under. If that license states that it can not be used in anything that it not fully open then whoever creates a derived work from it is just as bound to comply with it as you expect anyone else to comply with your rights you set on anything you create.

Although I'd argue that the proper action in this case is to report the creator for a violation and the original creator of the script can then take the appropriate measures to seek whatever actions they feel are appropriate the least of which would to force the derived creator to open up their product to comply with the license.

Jakkal, I have a great deal of respect for you, and your reputation as a content creator, and what I am about to say is not meant to disparage it in any way.



Yes, a VERY BAD example. Not simply because it is inflammatory, but simply because it is illogical. No one (or so few as to be effectively nil) has a legit USE of a boxcutter on an airplane as a PASSENGER. People who have them legitimately usually only have them because they are part of their common pocket / purse items. OK, maybe not boxcutters, but nail files, fingernail clippers (yes, even the lowly fingernail clipper has been identified as a dastardly WMD by some over eager TSA agent on at least one occasion), et cetera.

They ban these items not because they are a real threat, but because hysterical people DEMANDED the government "do something" to make them "feel safe" while traveling on a plane (gee, sounds familiar, doesn't it?). I GUARANTEE you I can do a LOT more damage with sharp pencil or a stout walking cane than a box cutter.



I can agree that it is a big problem, and LL has not done enough in its history to allay such fears, but let's be realistic here. "We" all knew it was coming, YET many chose to blow it so far out of proportion that they ultimately may end up doing far more damage than CopyBot ever could. People need to stop putting so much of their confidence someplace where they have been disappointed time and time again, and place it in themselves and their ability to persevere DESPITE the situation.



Sure, it is the main problem, on the surface. The problem with that view is how widespread is it now, and will it become later? I grant you LL hasn't been the best at policing its own rules, but until we see a) how bad it gets, and b) how good(bad?) they respond to it, WHAT IS THE POINT of running around screaming "THE SKY IS FALLING!!!"? When it falls, deal with it then.



As Argent said it so eloquently elsewhere, the VAST majority of your loyal customers WILL continue to buy legit works from you. I know I will. I know of several hundred other folks who will as well.



Assuming none come in to displace them (even ones who adapt to the market at that time), then SL will fold. Sure artists are very territorial, emotional people. I am one, too (though my medium is particles and scripts primarily, but I do make sounds, textures, and prims for them as well). I dislike the idea of people infringing my rights as much as any artist. The difference is that I am not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater because of some hysterical belief in a dark future which has yet to show any significant evidence that it has even the remotest of chances of coming true. Instead, I am advising artists to just stay the course; do what is prudent to protect your works now, and prepare to VIGOROUSLY defend your rights whenever and wherever you find infringement going on. Enlist the help of your customers, too. Start education efforts for newbies, like "Don't Copy That Avie!".



I think Cory Linden's post is a great start in that direction. I expect there to be more as time goes on.



Well, if anything, time will tell. I am betting on a bright future (at least over this situation), even though I am, by nature, a pragmatic cynic. My bet is that in a few weeks, the hype and hysteria will be over with, and we all can get back to our regularly scheduled Second Lives.

Deeding land or an object to a group is nothing one should do lightly. Better check twice before you do that. You basically transfer the ownership of the object when deeding it.
Wouldn't you check the perms before you trade something to another person? What if something goes wrong there? Would you use or approve of an exploit tool to steal it back from their inventory?

I know this bug, and I'm waiting for a fix since some of my wares are affected by it. But I won't violate the TOS or circumvent others IP rights. If people IM me because one of my wares has lost a permission, I'll give them a replacement.

Even if you have the talent to disassemble Microsoft Word and fix the bugs in it - you aren't allowed to do so. Why? Because you can't buy software. You only purchase the right to use software. You'll never completely own it. As long as you use software, you're bound to a contract between you and the seller, and you can lose your rights of usage if you break this contract. SL content is essentially software.

Please ask LL to implement this functionality again. Either it has a reason that no one is able to mess with scripts in not modifiable content, or it is a bug and needs to be fixed.

Ehm... do I understand you right, you duplicate a prim to use a texture that you don't own? The creator of the object may have purchased the texture or created it himself, but that doesn't give you the right to use it too.

If content is broken, contact the person that sold it to you. Ask for either a repaired replacement or demand your money back. If anyone finds a script error in my wares, I'll happily fix it. I even check my sales history and send free updates to everyone else who bought it.

Again, either a bug that needs to be fixed or a feature that was removed on purpose. Either way, what keeps you from IMing the vehicle creator and ask for an unscripted version?

Now, that's clearly a case for LL. Illegal use of scripts, and you don't report that but change only your version? How likely is that?

If the creator's permission settings keep you from doing all that without using CopyBot, you have to respect his decision. You can always IM the creator and ask to have it changed, what's so horrible about communicating? You're violating the copyright as soon as you do something you aren't permitted to do, be it disassembling commercial software or messing with item permissions in SL.

All your examples are pretty far-fetched and can be solved differently. They strangely remind me of the excuses of Gnutella or EDonkey users. Many people share open source or freeware content there - yeah, right. Or DVD ripping tools. How many people do you know who back up their DVDs by ripping them and burning copies in a lesser quality? I never made the effort and I don't know anyone who does.

Please keep in mind that whatever you do with a tool like CopyBot, you create full permission copies of any prim or linkset. It circumvents the DRM system of SL and each full perm copy violates the IP rights of the creator, no matter how you turn that around. Unless it's a freebie, no one but the creator should ever have full permissions, period.

The only time I lost permissions on an object I created was when I deeded to a group during building. To get full permissions back, I simply had the object returned to me from the parcel it was on. There are ways to work around bugs and mistakes without introducing a tool that the majority of those in possesion of will do harm with. While this tool may make things simpler in regards to permissions issues of the creator, it should not have been released in ANY WAY until measures were put in place by the developers or LL that would prevent unethical and illegal use of the tool. It was just plain irresponsible. LL may have announced that use of such tools is in violation of TOS but the tool is out there, easily accesible, and IN USE. I have yet to see LL strongly enforce TOS and with the freebie alt accounts and the ability to change your IP address, it does little to deter thiefs from using it for personal gain. I was only wondering if there were legitimate uses for the tool in it's current state of limitlessness. I appreciate the responses and will concede that with further development of the tool (including safeguards implemented against use for theft) it may very well be a legitimate tool. However, at this time it is more of a danger and a violation, economically and personally, than a useful tool. This just seems to be another instance where LL is left scrambling because they jumped the gun (referring to the Island price issue and the unethical leaking of this information to the big players who used the information to gain financially). Yes, this tool was created by libSL but it was endorsed by LL and the lack of security for this project is a serious issue as there was no regard to the repercussions of releasing it publicly.
And hey, I'm stereotypical- I'm a girl who likes to shop. And now, my favorite stores are closed. And yeah, I could hang out with my friends but a lot of the time I GO SHOPPING with my friends. It's just really thrown a kink in the things I enjoy about SL.

Wouldn't you check the perms before you trade something to another person? What if something goes wrong there? Would you use or approve of an exploit tool to steal it back from their inventory?[/quote]

Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. "Coulda Shoulda Woulda". Well, hate to say it, but sometimes we make mistakes. Would be nice to have a tool to CORRECT those mistakes, though, when there is no other recourse. I mean, when you lock your keys in the car, wouldn't it be nice if someone happened by to loan you a Slim Jim?



This is incorrect. Despite what Microsoft's EULA says, US Copyright Law allows for RE as a "fair use" and there are case law precedents supporting reverse engineering for the express purposes of enabling/restoring functionality FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY.



May not be possible. The creator may have left SL, been banned, or may otherwise refuse to repair the object for whatever reason. Not everyone is so nice as you are when dealing with customers.



See above.



More likely than getting LL to fix it, that's for sure. :-/



Why? When the LAW says otherwise. Fair Use doctrine isn't something that can be ignored to the convenience of a simple permissions system in an online game. Hell, the Big Boyz are wrestling with it for their TCPA/DRM initiatives, and can't agree on how to cope with it, why should anyone expect SL to be any different?



Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Problem is, if they can't, you're screwed. They may sound like excuses to you, but to many people (and the judges who have heard the cases and ruled in their favor), they are validated concerns.



*raises claw* I do. I don't play my originals of anything in a player. I make copies, which can be scratched, mangled, folded, burned, spindled, mutilated, whatever. Then I make another copy. Unlike most people, I expect my media to LAST me a lifetime, as I sure as hell don't wanna buy the same crap all over again. What's the sense in that?



That's true. However, having a full-permed copy of something you bought isn't an infringement. You paid for it, and it affects the creator not. Anything you do to said creation that doesn't leave your personal sphere of influence is most likely protected under Fair Use doctrine. However, the moment you start selling/giving it away, or otherwise infringing on the creator's rights OUTSIDE of Fair Use, then you are correct; you're guilty and need to be punished.

The apologists say there are a few 'valid uses' for CopyBot, and that therefore it's just fine. OK. I will grant that there are a few, rare cases where it has value. By the same logic, I could argue that I have every right to run around the nation's capital with a loaded fully automatic weapon, "because it's a great deterrant against would-be muggers". Or that it's fine for me to give away Heroin on a schoolyard, "because there are some valid medical uses for the narcotic".

I do not expect everything in SL to be perfectly protected, so that I do not have to do anything myself.

I DO expect that a drug dealer giving away Heroin at my child's school will be arrested, or that a moron who gives or sells guns and ammo to little kids should be arrested.

You can make all the apologies you like for libsecondlife's crackers and irresponsible programmers. They created a tool whose sole valid use for IP THEFT, a tool that destroys copy protection and creator attribution, and dumped it on the Internet for any thief to use. That is as irresponsible as leaving a truckload of military firearms and ammunition dumped in a playground, and they should be PUNISHED for that. Maybe not a ban for life, but for Gods sake stop treating them like your favorite sons and daughters! They are DESTROYING SL.

The Individuals who have been profiting from selling CopyBot to SL residents should be BANNED FOR LIFE.

The Lindens refuse to act AT ALL against the people who made and distributed the tool that makes almost all my products WORTHLESS. Telling me to AR a thief after I catch them red-handed making full-perms copies of my content, IF I can catch them, is like telling me that they know there is a rapist prowling my neighborhood, they know precisely who he is, and they won't do a damned thing until AFTER he has raped me. Hell, it's like saying they won't act while they see him chasing me and screaming he's going to rape me!

After an IP thief has used CopyBot to crack your permissions restrictions and remove your creator name from your work, it's too late. The commercial value of that work has already been destroyed. Ask the skin dealers who had even one skin released into the wild with full perms, by a momentary system glitch. CopyBot makes that nightmare a reality for every content provider who makes anything that is mostly prims and textures, for every item they have ever made.

They can't prevent people from getting CopyBot and using it. The horse has escaped from the barn and is long gone now. But they CAN ban any person caught DISTRIBUTING this cracker tool, or USING it to steal IP content. Until they say CLEARLY that they are going to do that, and not "We may ban them, if you catch them in the act", the commercial value of SL is as dead as the prospects of opening a resort hotel in the middle of a war zone.

Please note: This is NOT an attack against Argent or any other individual who has voiced their opinions in defense of CopyBot. In most other areas, I tend to agree with Argent, and I still respect his opinions, even though I am opposed to him on this point. I wrote this primarily in response to comments in the Town Hall blog replies, where people were implying that anyone who complained about CopyBot appeared to want LL to perfectly protect all IP for them.

I'll just repost what I wrote in IM:

#1 and #2 - LL does not fix these kinds of problems in all cases.

#3 - I can rewrite the scripts myself.

#4 - No, really, just restarting the script used to be possible and fixed the object for weeks. A recent update broke that. The original creator is not available.

#5 I'm talking about all "programs like copybot" that pull information out of parts of the system where they're unprotected. This would be GLintercept, not Copybot. The principle is the same.

#6 Again, I can rewrite most scripts people use on their products. It's what I did to replace X-flight with a simpler and better behaved version, so people couldn't use the excuse they "had to have it" to hold onto their illegally released sontent.

#7 Pulling content out of no-mod builds has been disabled in recent releases.

#8 Not only can I do this, but I have done it for modifiable content, for the purpose of supporting copyright.

I am a professional programmer, from a family of engineers and artists and musicians. I have been involved in making and selling intellectual property since the '70s. This is my homework, my life's work, and my avocation.

All these examples are real situations. not imaginary, that have happened to me or my friends and I have been able to implement all the workarounds I've described in related situations, in SL.

Nothing theoretical, all legitimate.

I don't disagree with that, but saying "there are no legitimate uses" plays into the hands of the griefers who wrote the bot, because it's not true and it fatally undermines your argument.

The legitimate uses do not justify the creation of the bot, but they do exist and it's either naive or disingenuous to claim otherwise. You want to fight it (and obviously you do, and you should) fight it with valid arguments.
See above.

Your joking right? Right? "See #1"... by the time lindens start caring we'll all be 6 feet under.

"It is a theft device only, with no true "legitimate" use." You need to do a bit of homework yourself there lad

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There is only one problem and the only reason LL wont stop copy bot. Its because they can't. Once this one is stopped, every other person who wants a free copy of something will just make a new copy bot. once they try and stop that someone will just make a newer one. I can't believe SL is dying like this!

Actually, you are. End user license agreements do not remove your rights as an end user. The DMCA does remove those rights, which is why it's a bad law, but it removes them in a very narrow range of activities and it removes very specific mechanisms... it doesn't make the use itself illegal, it makes the circumvention step illegal.

No, I've used GLIntercept to get the color codes for a texture I don't own, so I can create matching textures myself.
I've reported it. I uncovered the abuse of X-flight, and I spent three months building a better replacement for part of the functionality to remove the excuse that people "need" to continue violating copyright. There are other scripts like X-flight that have been abused.

No, actually, you're not. You may be breaking provisions in the DMCA in some cases, but you're not violating copyright as well. Copyright is a strictly restricted set of rights, and does not extend to the right to control how a copyrighted product is used. End user license agreements are not copyright law, and the restrictions imposed by them exceed legitimate IP rights in many many situations. The DMCA makes parts of them enforcable, as a specific exception to end-users rights to promote the development of software products that the creators of the bill believe wouldn't be profitable otherwise, but virtually all licensing agreements contain unenforcable terms that are not supported by it or any other law.

Here's a physical example: if someone sells a comic book, you're not allowed to run it through a color photocopier and cut up the copies and make buttons and sell them. But you are allowed to buy copies of the comic book from the artist, and cut them up, and make buttons out of them and sell them.

Not guilty. I may be the only person I know whose MP3 collection doesn't include anything downloaded from P2P services. When I found my daughter using those services I blocked them at my firewall, cleaned up her music collection as best as I could and bought her an iTunes allowance so she could replace the music she really wanted legitimately.

That does not work any more, and in fact if you were to return that object now you would be warned that it will be deleted rather than returned.

Then I misjudged you completely and apologize. But one question... what would you say if someone asks for the Gnutella and EDonkey networks to be closed? They may have a few legitimate uses, just as the CopyBot may have a few too. But those networks are clearly used for illegal activities most of the time, and I strongly suspect that the CopyBot will rarely used for something legal too. MMO publishers use to prohibit all third party tools that interact with their software, and I'd ask LL to do the same. It's a new world, they can set the rules.

Rezzinator II, Judgement day...starring copybot as the T 1000.





Just a thought.

Haha Kelly Linden said that the copybot could be used legitimately to copy your own creation, it's just harder to use the copybot than shift-copying. So why create the thing?

So if I buy a single flower and decide that I'd rather pay L$ 49 for the no copy, no mod version than L$ 299 for the copy version, it's ok for me to make 50 copies so I have a nice flower bed as long as I don't sell them?