Trademark infringement and cheap knockoffs

Some other things that have "cheap knockoffs made"

Jeans (levi's)
Kleenex (we call everything kleenex but the original creator of kleenex was the company who craeted that name there is only one patent the managed to hold onto)
Light bulbs if i remember rightly

These are some of the most memorable ones and the fact is that you can have the name sexgen but people are going to create their own version of it. As long as they do it from scratch and dont use your name etc that's how it works. You put a trademark on the name sexgen that you have to protect. If someone somehow stole the bed (not sure how though ..) and called it theirs then that is copyright but others coming up with other beds that use various moves or whatever (never actually seen a sexgen bed cause i'm not interested in em) that's fine.

I dont even know what in particular is special about this bed. I thought it was just a bed with a bunch of poses in it? If this is the case I probably made a few beds that could fall into that category. Again I dont know but to be honest trying to stop people from making beds and sticking poses in them is gonna get you knowwhere. If sexgen is trademarked then you can make em change the name

I myself am in the process of trademarking a couple of names because some people have like no original thoughts but since the brands/names are mine and at present the only ones existant in SL and I want to keep the name (for myself) it was actually suggested to me about 2 months back that I trademark a couple of names that are starting to get a following.

such is life though trying to stop people from making "cheap knockoffs' is like trying to get everyone other then kleenex brand to stop making "facial tissue"

yes i thought they trademarked the name sexgen? if this is so why are they not telling linden labs that "joe blow" is using their name and point them to the trademark and poof the name is gone?

There are conflicting views on that apparantly, the sexgen representatives say it's been registered for years, but USPTO shows it was filed mid-June and hasn't reached the registered stage yet.

Purely a personal guess, but LL did state they'll act on trademark infringement ARs, but that might come with the silent assumption that it will only happen for actual registered trademarks.

Wonders if the "sexgen" people will be contacting me now because i launched a 6 ball bed (heaven forbid)

This is the first 6 ball bed to be released in SL. This has no "freebie" animations inside. It is mod so you may change the colors and add in your own animations to suit your needs. Menu caters to nearly every fetish (fff,mmm,mmf,ffm,mmff,mmfff,fffmmm). As always dedicated support from CM Designs.

This is not an "overpriced" sexgen
This is not a "freebie" MLP
This is not a "beta" of Xpose

Stop on by Drakuls Cove if you wish to test it in person
(please remain clothed)

BTW nova shame you dont show at the top of the list on a sexgen search when search doesn't show home icons. make sure to ask all those people to remove the name as well.

[10:38] You: so who is running this show? you, brig, stroker?
[10:39] Nova: BRiggi and Stroker own sexgen nad have copywrited and trakmared the name
[10:39] Nova: you using it is like using coke or ford
[10:39] You: you have alot of people to talk with then
[10:39] Nova: you sell sexgen units here
[10:39] You: no i do not and do not claim to
[10:39] Nova: yes, we are doing that now
[10:39] You: mine are a sexgen type
[10:39] You: which is what my add says
[10:40] Nova: thatis like saying you sell a ford like car
[10:40] Nova: it is a copywited name
[10:40] Nova you have to many peolpe selling sexgen knock offs
[10:40] You: i'll talk it over with stroker
[10:40] Nova: so we are puting a stop to all of it
[10:40] You: sure i would want you to protect your items
[10:41] You: thats what you need to do
[10:41] You: again mine are not sexgen nor have i ever claimed that
[10:41] You: i refer to the style or menu
[10:41] You: "works like a "
[10:42] Nova: as long as you remove the word sexgen from your search and land listing there will nto be a problem
[10:42] Kotori: then maybe say menu type beds?
[10:42] You: so whats next miffy will chase everyone with "mlp"
[10:42] Nova: but the name sexgen itself is copyprotected by law
[10:43] Nova: MLP is on our list, they are selling there beds as sexgens
[10:43] Nova: and are going to be sued for it
[10:43] You: maybe if youu could advertize better you would show at the top of the list?
[10:43] You: how''s this......
[10:43] You: MLPI Xcite! Sex Bed Sex Beds Sex Rugs Cuddle Rugs Kitchens Living Room Sectionals Beds Work Like Sexgen But are not Sexgens
[10:44] You: is that more clear?
[10:44] Nova: no, if you are using the name sexgen then you are in violation
[10:44] Kotori: but that don't say thay have a sexGen type bed
[10:44] Nova: use love pose, mlb or anythting ells,
[10:44] Nova: but not our company name
[10:45] You: you are goign to be quite busy
[10:45] Nova: we are to the point of filing DMCA's on this
[10:45] Kotori: yes
[10:45] Kotori: but that is are job
[10:45] Nova: we are hoping peolpe will be rasionable and removethe name but if you have totake it to LL we will
[10:45] You: i am still going to wait to hear from stroker
[10:45] You: i understand your point
[10:46] You: i'm not saying i wont do it, i want it from up top
[10:46] Kotori: please tail that Ma'am she is not nice
[10:47] Nova: we do not wantto be diffacult about this, but if the name is there there in 24 hours, the DMCA will be fled... please this, do you realy need the trouble from LL
[10:47] You: so i can go create a line called nexgen and use that then huh
[10:47] You: i'm not worried about trouble
[10:47] Nova: think about
[10:47] You: why should i listen to the messenger?
[10:48] You: i hope you make sure to contact every other person on that search list, because i will be watchign that
[10:48] Kotori: you are the top of the list Sir
[10:48] You: yes because i know how to advertise
[10:49] Nova: because our bosses are very busy and if they have to deal with you themselfs they will not be so nice... we are hoping that peolpe will be reasionable.. but if you force us to go the offical route we will
[10:49] Nova: you would not do this with coke, ford or intal would you
[10:49] Nova: its the same thing
[10:49] You: i am saying i wish to hear it from up top
[10:49] Nova: very well
[10:49] You: and are you just after me because i am top of the list?
[10:50] Kotori: nove is top
[10:50] Nova: you where give a chance to do this nicly
[10:50] You: i am not scared of any of you
[10:50] You: or LL
[10:50] Nova: i am the head of sexgen marketing and repair
[10:50] Nova: just look at bb's profile
[10:50] You: well if you could do marketing would you not be at the top?
[10:50] You: or do i need to give you some lessons
[10:51] Kotori: starting to get mean
[10:51] You: mean?
[10:51] You: thats mean
[10:51] Nova: kot mova alone, we will let LL deal with this guy, please notecard this for Mistress
[10:51] Kotori: huggg's and love Sir
[10:51] You: remove yourself from my sim now please

Snippets from my convo on the day in question. I removed the last names so hopefully i dont get bashed (like i care) anyways nova is the OP of this thread and Kotori is a sexgen rep as well.

At the time if you searched sexgen i showed at the top of the list because i had a house icon and an add saying sex gen type or sex gen like. It has since been removed.

This is correct. The trademark filing date is only one piece of the puzzle. The bigger question is (a) did the creator of the SexGen bed mark it as (tm) from day 1, and (2) when violations were found, did they send take down notices to violaters. If they did neither of these things, their argument for ownership of the name is dubious.

You might want to care since violations on the forums can have repercussions for your account as a whole. You can't post logs of conversations without everyone's consent, although you're obviously free to paraphrase it in your own words.

we can call it that a paraphrase of my convo with nova and kotori, funny to me how posting the name of avatars is such an atrocity. I have seen it happen plenty of times in these forums, and every other forum i have been to (other worlds) people could care less unless it got personal. then the mods would cease the convo.

Well, if one doesn't mind someone's arms running through another avatar's body in couple poses, and joints being twisted in unnatural ways, then an untweaked Poser animation might be sufficient.

If you apply animations made for DAZ3D models to the SL avatars within Poser, you can see how far the limbs are off. Tweaking an entire animation is quite a task, I'd rather create my own one optimized for SL avis.

Stroker, Braggi and all the gang with sexgen have made quite a little bundle with sexgen beds. The fact is LL does recognize the IP rights of it's residents....but that only applies to Linden Labs, not the residents themselves. LL has repeated, time and time again, that they do not want to be policing each and every dispute among resident (which probably why SL can be compared to a third world country or, in Philips words, "The Wild West."

The only recourse that the OP has in this situation is outting the indiviuals using a trademarked name that has existed for 3 years; but, not actually trakemarked until recently, and taking them to court. So..do the math. How much is it going to cost to take someone to court over a trademark that has only existed since this year (and risk having it thrown out of court), as compared to how much you are making by selling Sexgen beds in a virtual world?

In my humble opinion, the cat's already out of the bag, and the OP is trying to close the barn doors after the horses have fled. And to tell the truth, is for years, no one in SexGen has actively protected the name. A simple phrase of "All Rights Reserved." would have satisfied that requirement...but wasn't done.

As long as there is a way to rip off others, people will do it...and SL is so easy to rip people off from, be it textures, prims, animations, or trade names. If there is no enforcement of the laws or even if there are no laws to enforce, then it is implied that it is legal (much like some of the sex laws in some states in the US, everyone does it; but no one is going to call the cops because someone gave someon else a...well, lets not go )there.)

Funny part to me is being called a knockoff. I havent seen a sexgen bed with more then 4 balls. I can make an 8 ball bed if i chose with unlimited memory and balls and not miffy's beta version of xpose.

They came after me because as i posted i had "sexgen type " or "sexgen like" in one of my ads and was higher on the search then them. I feel they are fighting a losing battle and can't wait to see them target the other 247 ads under that search.

Don't forget to neglect your customers while fighting this battle because i will be tending to them.

*sighs* The trademark has existed since they started selling something under the name Sexgen. Trademarks don't need to be registered in order to have a trademark status. The legal proceedings are a bit different though, they'd have to sue (or to file a DMCA takedown) for "passing off" instead of trademark infringement.

Quizno's claims to be like Subway, except tastier and clean. Subway claims to be like Quizno's, except healthier and better.

It's not illegal in the United States to use another product name in your advertisement. For instance, Pepsi can say, "Like Coke, but better." but Pepsi can't say, "Product of Coke", "We are Coke." (Unless they owned Coke or Visa Versa).

I can say my prim penises that I sell is Like Xcite, even better then Xcite, but I cannot say that it is Xcite.

(Disclaimer: I do not sell prim bits )

And that's perfectly legal. But Quizno would commit an infrigement if they advertised their products under the name Subway, in order to mislead Subway customers. It has to be clear that Quizno is not Subway, but a different brand comparing itself to Subway.

Yes, it would be.. and reading all about the laws on Trademark "infringement" has made it very clear that yes, as long as you are not telling people what you are selling is in fact the genuine article, that yes you can use it in your advertizing referencing your product as "works like" "menu is like" or even "better than". I do totally understand the creator of the sexgen product wanting his item protected, but to blatently IM people who are using "works like" "menu is like" or "better than" and then come to their land and harass them in person before understanding the laws BEFOREHAND is quite bold. I suggest they hire a trademark attorney to get their facts straight before harassing people without knowing what the hell they are talking about. The "persons" who came to my shop called them cheap knockoffs of the "sexgen" because the ads stated they "worked like" meaning "menu works the same" nothing more. Never claimed to sell Sexgens or that my beds in fact "were" Sexgens, because they are not. They never even bothered to go into the shop to look at what the bed was or how it DID work. They were just pissed my ad was at the top of the list. So of course I was the first target. Well, maybe learn a little bit of advertising? As my husband stated in a previous post, you cannot get this menu anywhere, not unless of course you paid an extremily talented scripter a shitload of money as we did to create this for us. NO cheap knock off's there, I seriously resent that comment and I do not appreciate the vulgarity of their statement. If that is honestly how these people who do "support" and "marketing" for Sexgen feel about these products and they think they suck so bad then maybe they should come take a look at some of these beds then open their mouth. Better yet, PROVE the Sexgen is better, hows that? I would suggest the creator of the sexgen hire someone who isn't going to run all of his potential clientele off by harassing to the point where people just don't buy anymore beds. WHY? well because sooner or later all of these night clubs, sex houses and property managers who want to use the name to draw people into their places, which DOES give Sexgen FREE advertising BTW, will just feel they are being threatened too much with the name Sexgen in their ads to bother and people will take their money elsewhere. That is already what is starting to happen now and this is the whole reason this is even an "issue". They had the market, now its wide open and i am more than sure they are seeing their profits go straight downhill. What do you expect with other talented people in SL? For them to just sit there and not try to create their own items? It happens..the big kicker though.. it's all about customer service, you keep them happy they keep coming back. I don't seem to have any issues in that department and my stuff is even MODABLE, go figure! In the meantime, learn some people skills, look into advertising and get your facts straight... Until then drop it already, its becoming obnoxious.

/me waves at Cherry

I don't know when SexGen became a name for any scripted bed. It's always meant something made by Stroker/Briggi to me.

I guess it was some time after the explosion of MLP based stuff full of knockoff poses that happened. But yeah, even so, I'm pretty sure in the US (we're always reminded of SL being hosted and run from the US) that it's ok to say "Our Toyota truck has bigger wheels than a Nissan" so I guess it would be ok to say "AceBonk Beds- more giggles than a SexGen" in your classified.

I prefer the cuddles in the deviant bed anyway

The more I think about it, the more I realize the importance of the SexGen(TM) brand. The scripting is standard-issue and has been for years, so there's no possibility of patent there (prior art, obviousness, etc.)... there's copyright for the scripts, but since it's pretty easy to do at least as well as the SexGen(TM) scripts--and a not-bad open source version exists in MLP--there's nothing of much value to protect with that copyright. And the animations are... well... not necessarily the ones one would choose, given a budget of L$several-thousand and a trip to Animation Warehouse Island.

So, the business really does seem to be more the brand than the product. And that's perfectly fine, plenty of RL businesses work that way. But a brand is a lot more than a trademark, so the company faces a delicate balancing act at the moment: try to defend their mark without so vilifying their brand that Search results start turning up "Proud not to carry SexGen(TM) wares."

(Note: I'm trying to be careful about using the (TM) notation. That's actually part of defending a mark. The holder is expected to without exception use the appropriate notation--TM when filed, R when registered--and to insist on others use of it too.)

My point is that it's going to cost far more in court costs and filing costs than it's worth in the money that they are making at the moment...not to mention lawyer fees. And, also, it would hold up in court far, far better had it been registered BEFORE it was used, rather than in preparation of a court date.

And how much is that going to cost? In lawyer fees and court filing costs? ... which was the point of my post, "Is it worth it?"

The bottom line would appear, to me, that Stroker has left this in the hands of a couple people where English is not their first language (correct me if I'm wrong, but in reading the transcripts involving these representatives, their handling of the English language does not befit someone from an English speaking country), and more importantly, no grasp of trademark law.

This results in what appears to be bullying tactics. Threatening DMCA takedown action for name use alone is very poor form, especially when such an action can have very negative repercussions against Stroker if performed.

While I'm not defending Stroker's team's actions (they're reprehensible, in fact), I believe they're simply very uninformed in the background necessary to check for true infractions of the name (citing trademark and copyright infringement is incorrect, for one) and frustrated.

Stroker should have hired a lawyer to investigate or at least given his team some education on the matter. *shrug* In the end, it's clear to those using the trademarked name in their advertising that they haven't broken any laws (unless they're claiming to sell SexGen beds and don't... and I haven't heard of any yet).

Okay, Stroker and BB have a partnership in SexGen and collaborate in product development. The people metioned so far in this thread are employees of Briggi, NOT Stroker, which is the reason I felt compelled to reply to your posting. You should not be speaking about Stroker in an adverse way here when this is none of his doing.

I work directly for Stroker and I am a native English speaker (I'm English). Stroker has the services of a specialist IP attorney, who he has been using for some time, and has provided me with the text for a takedown notice to use.

Stroker has actively defended his trademark and copyright for the past 2 years at least, and although I'm no expert I DO understand the difference between Trademark, Copyright and Patents. There is currently one legal action in process which is both a copyright and trademark infringement.

The only people that I've been instructed to target are those that are using SexGen in the name of their products or directly advertising their products as being SexGen (and yes I've found many). I don't use threats, the text that I give people points out that they are infringing the SexGen trademark and asks them to change it. I see it as education, MOST people don't realise what they have done and are happy to change it. There are a few who are deliberately using the SexGen name to market their own products and they are ultimately AR'd and Legal action taken where necessary.

I make no claim that SexGen is the *best* product out there as that would be a subjective opinion and in my case a little biased maybe but just consider when making comparisons that the SexGen Platinum + Diamond has 156 low lag poses, all of which are exclusively sexgen, won't be found elsewhere on the grid, and provide poses for up to 4 people on demand.They work out to L$ 115 per pose which is perhaps a little less than the average price for a single animation elsewhere. The software has been improved over 3 years and is very mature and stable and optimised to be as low lag as possible. The base can be moved from bed to bed and between avatars as required. Many people remark on the quality of SexGen support, it's rare that there isn't somebody available to help 24/7.

Also keep in mind that much of this has been triggered because we are getting cusomers come to us asking for support or upgrades of their "SexGen", and we have to tell them ... "sorry but your bed isn't SexGen, there's nothing we can do for you".

Personally, I think that competition is a good thing but it's only fair to customers that they shouldn't be deceived into buying something that is NOT what they think they are buying.

I don't think this is true - observe the famous trademark leaks that have taken place in RL, such as "Hoover" and "Tannoy".

Considering the user base here, some people are going to associate "sexgen" with a competing brand's bed, no matter how it's marketed.

As for this thread - I would love to see it closed, as all it does is propagate misinformation about trademarks, copyrights, and patents (with few exceptions). While I support Eros LLC in the lawsuit, this post reminds me of why people shouldn't comment while lawsuits are pending.

First, a Trademark is a piece of property. The owner of the property may use his or her property in any way that he or she sees fit. One of those property rights is the right to disallow others from using it.

Thus, whether a particular furniture is as good as or better than a SexGen is not the issue. That doesn't allow the creator of the better piece of furniture the right to seize the Trademark property from the Trademark's owner. Just like I can't come to your house one day, take your car, and expect no liability from the act simply because I can drive your car better than you can.

Second, Trademarks, like Copyrights, may exist without the necessity of registration. However, registration is, I think, necessary before a court will enforce one's rights in a Trademark or Copyright. That's why so many are registered (or the paperwork filed to register) on the eve of filing a lawsuit. Prior registration of the Trademark can save the owner a lot of headache later down the road, but lack-of-registration does not necessarily mean the lack of Trademark.

Third, Trademarks can be lost if the owner does not enforce his or her right to the Trademark. So if SexGen was batted around as a generic name for furniture that rezzes poseballs with sex animations for a while before the original owners of SexGen got around to enforcing their rights, they could have lost their rights. That's why Trademark holders- at least ones who aren't sleeping on their rights- get anal retentive about using that (TM) designation everywhere, and printing as many times and as many ways possible that "So-and-So (TM) is a registered trademark of the So-and-So Corporation."

So the case of SexGen isn't necessarily cut-or-dry one way or the other.

However, I do know a few things. If I had actually made the product that I think is superior to competitors by one or more factors, I would want to use a name to distinguish myself from those competitors. Second, it's easy enough to exploit the search functions in Second Life by advertising the furniture as "better than SexGen." No Trademark infringement concerns, and the ad will pop up on any search of "SexGen."

Further, the free market concept of economy only works where there is effective competition, and there can only be effective competition if consumers are able to get good information about different products. Thus, a Trademark is valuable to consumers because it quickly conveys information about a particular product. Attempts to free-ride from a competitor's name recognition actually hurts competition because it obfuscates information from consumers and misleads them.

Of course, the dirty little secret of the Second Life economy is that it thrives upon taking advantage of poorly-educated consumers. But I look at that as a bad thing rather than a good thing.