New Bot: The Estate Owners Fight Back!

I don't agree with the OP's intent either, but he's just following the same mindset the bot apologists use: SL is the new internet; "everything goes, deal with it or quit".

If you spend any amount of time using a search engine you know it's full of spoofed results, the OP is just introducing that concept into SL and it's not like content creators don't have any recourse. Trademarks exist exactly to combat this sort of thing, if you register your in-world brand names in RL, you can issue LL with a cease-and-decist. Or like the normal residents are told: you can leave.

It's hypocritical to go on about how SL is no different than the web when it happens to suit your agenda. Spoofing is a natural result of a search engine that doesn't include any human intelligence or monitoring. It's people using unethical yet not illegal ways of being competitive.

If ESC's search engine takes off and becomes the de facto search standard, a sexgen competitor will have a prim created by Stroker in their store, hidden away somewhere and marked for sale, just to lure people over. You're naive if you can't see that.

Cory, I don't mind your collecting data. (Maybe I should, but I don't.) You have stated that this is not something for use by your clients at all. But I think it's clear who your clients are, and who pays you to do this. I do think that is the goal of the project. If so, I don't mind your presenting aggregate data to your clients.

What I mind is that you have published individual, non-aggregate data on a website, which should have been opt-in, not opt-out.

I think you should scrap this version, and start a new one that would be opt-in, which really WOULD be a service to SL residents.

What is the reason for not doing that?

coco

Yes, thank you. Especially given the vitriol directed at ESC in this thread, it is very useful to have a member of ESC responding to our questions.

You're better off addressing Forseti Svarog on that. I'm not a part of the development team, and my main extent with the search engine was finding some bugs and helping the devs track them down. I'm not a part of the decision making process behind its beta release although I personally agree with the following statement Forseti made in the previously linked blog post about the topic:

"Purely opt-in systems, to be frank, die at birth. They simply cannot get off the ground. Purely opt-out systems are too invasive."

You're still, hopefully misintentionally, confusing the aggregate data referred to in the quote you posted with the search engine aggregate data. The funding allows us to develop services. Some of these are research into services that benefit a client directly, such as estate usage statistics. Some of these are research into projects like the search engine which are developed with the intention of benefiting users of SL as a whole in order to contribute to the longevity of the platform, and pick up where LL can't afford to put manpower into. The two don't necessarily intermingle, nor do I see a reason why the first instance should come as a direct result of the second.

It's quite ironic to see a Luddite Movement in a virtual World.

It reminds me of the Braindead anti Copybot Spam Objects, they are still around and spamming...

Way to go big R! Protect those customers against low prices! I hate paying too little! There's nothing I enjoy more than paying just a little extra for something, and now I'll be able to!

Maybe you could do the same thing on eBay! Or Amazon! Yeah! Gum up *their* search engines by advertisingl "l336 Corvette for $50", because it the gods know that those Corvette sellers don't want low prices giving their goods a bad reputation!

Oh, wait, everything, that is, every single object on the grid has a For Sale/Not for sale attribute. Huh. Go figure. Musta been a mistake. I mean, it's not like it's easy to tell what an item's properties are, right? You have to go to the website and fill out a long webform with the item's UUID and then wait for LL mail you back a piece of paper with all the information on it, right? It can take weeks.

My promise to my vendors: if you do this, I won't spend money with you, because how do I know you won't be selling me an empty box, just to each bargain hunters a lesson?

Don't want this? Don't put out items that are for sale. Seems pretty simple, but then I'm just a simple programmer, who does not understand your modern ways.

Here's what would actually be productive:

1) In-world localized search for consumers

* I read Elika's blog and notice she relased new hair, with one style I happen to like. I go over to ETD, use a HUD to type in the name of the hair, the HUD calls llMapDestination with the location, I close the map and use the red arrow to walk over to the hair I want and buy it without having to wander over the entire store looking for it

* I see a texture I like and ask for the name and find out it's part of TRU's collection. I tp over to TRU, type in the texture name and the HUD guides me over to the vendor that has the texture inside of it

Most stores would cheer to have the functionality mentioned above

2) Services for content creators

With their identity/key verified, a concent creator can use the website search to get a listing of content they created and that's marked for sale

3) Lost and found

With their identity/key verified, any resident can use the website search to get a listing of prims they may have lost (plenty of people rez an AO/collar somewhere and then can't find it again)

All of the above is productive, useful and very mindful of privacy concerns and none of it is far-fetched enough that it shouldn't have just been obvious when searchbot was planned and designed.

The newbie who buys your fake product, hoping that someone was selling a used item cheap, that's who is beind defrauded. And as was pointed out earlier, potentially a vendor who will get smeared with your broad brush.

okay - Couple of things

Just becuase Electric Sheep Company was given funding, it doesnt have any additional rights than any other users of Second Life.

Im not saying you say it does - But I want that to be clear to everyone.

Unless Linden Labs hires you to make a searchbot for them, its a third party system. If Linden Labs has asked for this service they better tell us.



Secondly - This Search bot scans everyone's objects that it can get to. Is this not a correct statement?

I agree with all of these, and I can say that the search engine right now is strictly a beta proof of concept to which we're gathering a lot of feedback on how search is best used (and not used) for commerce purposes. There's a long way to go and a lot of useful methods that can stem from this search capability.

I mind it.

Just as you did on your bot thread yesterday?


The only reason to use them is because they do some kind of voodoo with the protocols?
Can a human operate 24/7 without sleep or toilet breaks? No.
Can bots? Yes
Can a human respond to raw data coming from the sims? Not likely
Can bots? Yes
Can a human perform millions of calculations a second? No
Can bots? Yes
All of the above are human vs machine. An avatar is not a human, and bots cannot do anything a normal avatar cannot do. They cannot fly through banlines, they cannot refuse to be TPd by a security orb, they cannot magically hide themselves from a properly working scanner, they cannot force your land to be sold at 0L$, they cannot force your objects to be sold at a price you did not set.


Obviously not, or the bot would not have got through undetected. Either the bot wasn't there, or your scanner is not good enough to guarantee 100% accuracy.


You assume that 10 seconds is not long enough. What happens if they sit outside the range of your security orb and buy your objects? The risk you are taking did not suddenly become a risk because of the search bot, it just became a more noticable risk.


Yep, I was there. Either your detectors have blind spots on your land, or your scan frequency is too low, or the bot simply sat outside the range of your scanners.


The post you are replying to was directed at somebody else. Describing bots or humans who buy something that is set for sale as thieves is out of proportion.
However, bots are not extraordinary avatars, they are 100% subject to the restrictions of the protocols that other avatars are. They are perfectly normal avatars.
What they are not, is human.
Avatar != human, but a 3D representation of an account.


Yet again, you responded to something that was directed to another poster.
Here is the quote that was in response to:

If anyone objects then their names will be removed. That is opt out by way of objection rather than having a proper opt out process. ESCs opt out process means your items will not appear on their site. The objection opt out only works for those people who know not to use your product names on the items. It also will not remove your product names from the ESC site unless the person leaving these fake prims around opts out from ESC themselves. This approach could very well be placing product names back into the ESC search after the original creator of those objects has opted out.
Also note that receiving offers from creators, and having many options is not the same as stating this is opt in. The "not short of options" suggests using the names of those content creators, plus names of others that have not opted in. Using only the names of creators who offer to help is a single option, not many.


ROFLMFAO!
From somebody who responded to a post that was in response to another poster?
Are you in fact Vi Shenley? If so, is that piece of information publicly available? Do you have the title "My other car is a Vi Shenley"?

I could say something similair about Wiretapping in Real Life.

If you have something to hide - dont talk on the phone.

The fact that we have no practical Privacy becuase of the system does not give anyone wholesale license to intentionally, irresponsibly spy on us.

You are correct on the first statement, of course. The also basic fact is this is a concept that isn't completely limited to ESC being able to do, either. We happen to be the first; I'm sure we won't be the last, and there's nothing standing in the way for another company to do the same.

The second statement is also correct. This is not unlike things like Scan Foo etc. that are strictly LSL coded and have also been around for years. The big difference is the automation provided with the open sourcing of SL (which anyone can take advantage of), and the database back end (which is necessary because of the memory limitations in an LSL script, again something that's been done for years). The difference is, it only indexes items that have the For Sale flag checked. It must scan all objects in order to find these; results that do not have the For Sale flag are not indexed.

This is so silly. Second Life has needed a product search since inception and you're trying to sabotage the first early attempt at one because people are too lazy to set security in their sims or careless enough to leave no-copy objects open for sale for $0L? I've NEVER used the object sale option specifically because you can't specify a buyer. The real solution is fixing that so it works like selling land, not harpooning legitimate efforts to make shopping easier in Second Life.

Would you also care to sue 13 year olds and dead grandmas?
Comparing yourself to the RIAA is likely to make more enemies than it is friends.


You are a content creator without a line of quality products? How very Gerald Ratner of you

I agree with you as it stands at the moment Cory the TOS is clear however as time progresses and things change as they will im sure as LL pulls back from policing SL companies will use this bots to gather as much data as they can as information = cash for a marketing company.

As you say there is a bug around which ESC knew about so why the heck was it released as an opt out service rather than opt in especially knowing that this bug existed? I believe that the product is good and the service has potential as an opt in service only for those that want it.

As SL stands atm we are fairly safe from the coporates but as SL changes the information thats available will change and im sure ESC will change the bot to suit ur clients data collection requests.

ESC is here first and foremost to make money, just dont go down the road of the spammers of the early ninties like Spamford wallace he always maintained he was being good and just serving the needs of the corporates, you know as well as i do im sure that opt out is the start of a slippery slope of data collection maybe not right this minute but in the future as more data becomes available here in SL.

The other point is that it is very difficult to opt out of the service well it was when i posted to the blog on ESC at least make opting out easier for those that want to, if it hasnt been done yet, i did suggest an opt out board at the islands landing point rather than hidden as it was? I am unable to access SL atm so i dont know if the sign has been moved now, but that would be a help

Peace

That is a flaw in the system and should be raised as a bug report. It is not the fault of ESC that LL has a bug, nor is it the fault of the owner, but the fault of LL.

Thank you

See , I object to someone intentionally scanning my objects without my permission.

A bot makes this system automated and quickly.

Even if I opt out it still scans All my objects. Even if I tell you DONT SCAN MY OBJECTS it will scan them, and record it in its database.

But since I opted out it doesnt display this information.

This issue is bigger than one scanbot. Its an issue about what is going to be done about spybots in general. I submit the current system provided by Linden Labs lacks any reasonable protection from spybots.

I want the ability for me, my property and all my objects to be invisible from automated data mining.

If we werent involuntarily included in this scheme, without our consent or notice it was being implemented, and made to physically visit their In World location to opt out of something we don't want to be a part of in the first place, maybe a protest would not be necessary. This may not be the best action to take, but it is obvious that the Providers are leaving us on our own. When pushed, you have to push back. I support this idea in theory.

It isnt the objects owner's fault some automated bot snooped into their bedroom and displayed the item on a website either.

Vi Shenley is my wife in RL, if you want to know anything else about me, I suggest you contact your friends at Electric Sheep.

If the search engine is being developed with the intention of benefiting users of SL as a whole, then it should be clear by now that it needs to be an opt-in system.

I disagree with Forsetti's idea that it would die at birth. SLBoutique (also an Electric Sheep Company) and SLExchange hardly died at birth. A free search engine for content creators! What's not to like? As I said, I was thrilled to be on this myself, though I didn't like finding myself PUT on it without being consulted.

I also disagree with Forsetti's apparent idea that he has arrived at some happy medium which isn't too invasive. This search engine clearly is too invasive, for a multitude of practical reasons as well as privacy issues.

This version needs to be scrapped, and the project started over as an opt-in project. Since Forsetti seems to be the one who makes these decisions, perhaps he could come into the thread and speak to this.

coco

Nowhere did I say people have the right. But here's the thing, you allow anyone to enter then you are by definition accepting that anyone can enter, permission implied or not. Just because you or I wouldn't (yes, that right, I don't have a habbit of wondering into peoples houses) does not mean that others will not. The only way you can say that your sim is private with the definition that nobody enters uninvited is to have access lists.

People wanting companies to act responsibly in Second Life isnt Luddite.

People wanting people to respect their privacy even if it cant be guaranteed isnt Luddite.

Dismissing people for wanting a modicum of respect granted to them becuase they are percieved as technically less proficeint is Elitist