New Bot: The Estate Owners Fight Back!

Actually, sending that little letter or your own letter to CBS, who is funding/has funded ESC, will get a quicker response than calling 911. Also, carbon the press that have written about ESC & LL: The Today Show, C|Net, Fortune, Brandweek, Business Week, etc. Bad press has much more power than good cops.

Money talks. If morality is of no concern to ESC, certainly liquidity and IPOs are.

Send all the letters you want. I am sure they will be quicky filed in the crack pot file.
No one outside of SL cares about your imaginary land. I wonder how many SL care as well. I know I don't.
I was pointing out how absurd you people sound.

Let's try a little test here. 30 blown up in Irag, Bush giving a speech or bot scaned your land looking for saleable items. Now which one is going to make the papers?

CBS dosn't care, because you are not the one they are going after. They are going after the people who have never heard of SL. This is a non issue to them.

Moarlity? It is a bot we are not talking murder, mayhem or selling children as sex slaves.
Plenty of companies have done far worse things and managed to move right along.

Like I said before I find this funny. Why do I find this funny? Because it is silly and all of you getting your pants in a bunch because some bot scanned you land are just as silly.

Now I return to SL to do some shopping and I am going to use the ESC search engine to do it.


Rox

No. It is not the correct thing to do. It is harrassment, and as such, it is a violation of the Community Standards. Furthermore, when you say "sending a clear message to ESC that this opt out service will not be tolerated by the residents" you are speaking on behalf of a very substantial number of residents who disagree with you. The noise being made in this thread is loud, but few are the residents making the noise.

Actually, I can see doing this with the freebie box that most stores provide. Not a bad idea and as you say, it's free advertisement! Heck, this is a far better way of making the system both useful and useless without making anyone look like jerks. *sees the system flooded with store freebie packs so that only newbies and freebie hunters use it*

I'm not aware of any part of Community Standards to the effect of "thou shalt not lie to 3rd party grid spiders".

I'd figure someone could place such misleading/advertisement prims set for sale under ground level or surrounded tightly by another prim, which puts them out of AV access but still fully scannable by the grid bot... that creates situation where there's no harrassment to speak of, just a primitive 3rd party grid crawler that's being gamed for personal profit, much like all other automated systems in SL.

I'd expect such things to emerge pretty soon if not already for that matter, since it's extremely cheap way to advertise one's business at next to zero cost...

This is a ridiculous argument.

If I had the time and the patience, I could visit every house in Atlanta, look at every object they have in their yard (after all, it's out there for everyone to see, right?), make a note of the those objects, take down the name and address of the individual whose house it is (using a reverse phone directory), and then collate and publish that information listing the contents of the yards of everyone in Atlanta, by name and by location.

The bot is simply much more efficient.

Therefore, it must be okay, right?

(And this doesn't take into account that the bot isn't limited to yards, but looks into the houses as well.)

coco

Rocky has a good idea here. CBS and its ilk won't give a rat's patootie about us, but they will give a rat's patootie about being linked publicly to an outfit that is demonstrably irresponsible and so incompetent or stupid it releases so fatally flawed and perverse a project as this. It unnecessarily hurts people without their prior knowledge or consent and it fails to deliver 90% of what it promises. Talk to CBS - and SONY, who in-world site is on Sheep Island, and all the rest - and make sure you are warning them that associating with this project and ESC will not hurt them and can hurt them.

Hit 'em where it hurts.

Um um um um um . . . no, it is not harassment.

Since when has putting a prim of your choice named with your choice for sale on your own land been harassment?

That's really twisted. Not only can ESC scan our lands and write everything down, they also have the right to tell us what we can name our objects on our land? NO, I don't think so.

Plus, people always try to stop their opposition by saying, "Oh it's just a few of you who think that, give it up."

There will ALWAYS be only a few residents who weigh in on a subject on the forums, including, by the way, those on your side, Zaphod, who are actually in the minority here. And in this case, most of the residents don't even know this is happening to them.

coco

Hi. As a rule I never read forums. I could go into details on this, but suffice it to say, they are a horrible source of misinformation, and generally lead to arguments over minor points that have nothing to do with 'the real problem', degrade into name calling, and other unappealing nonsense.. Double the case when it's about technology, where everyone THINKS they know the answer, but rarely truly understands the goings on. Triple the case when it's about technology and legal issues, where no one actually has a clue, and really ought to get a lawyer and go to court to find out the truth IF THEY THINK THEY ARE ALL THAT YA KNOW. That said, I won't be reading anything you have to say in response to this, it's a monologue, and I'm only typing because I'm bored, have a few ideas, and a few minutes to waste. Get it? Well, whether or not ya do, we're going in. You, of course, can 'opt out' of my message. I JUST LIKE TO TYPE.

Going to do two things here. One, disambiguate fact from fiction. Two, give you a clue-by-four on how to shave this little denizen.

1. Before the sheepbot existed, but after the advent of LSL, you were already being scanned, by every avatar that came to your place, LL's map creation utilities, grid monkeys, flying fallus, you name it. taint nuttin new happnin here. There were databases of your avatars keys, your stuff, you name it, all before ESC got happy. Wasn't as accessible, sure. Worked different. Sure. But... technically, a sim isn't much different from a webpage, not surprising that people made a 'grid spider', and this isn't the first 'attempt' at such a thing, just the highest profile. Truth: CBS is a bunch of chumps to toss 7 million into this kindergarten project. Oh, you'll be getting a return on THAT one.

2. You want to throw this thing off? doi. LSL allows you to make objects that change their name and description, and it has timers. So, you can make an object that rotates it's name. Befuddled search engine. You want to throw this thing off? He with the most prims wins. Do the self-renaming object thing, do a dictionary maneuver, and have an object that changes it's name every x minutes. Result? Well, enough of you get to do it together, and the sheep search becomes fairly ridiculous to use. Misinformation everywhere. Remember, this is a search engine, it's going to work like google, plenty of people have made google look dumb, you could do the same, easily. Ok, that's not enough? Well, gee, there's the anti-landbot crowd with their wonderful 'teleport so and so home' script, any time that sheepbot comes around, send it right back home. Oh? Not enough for you. Well, gee whiz simon, here's some sez for you... LSL has avatar scanners. This sheep thing comes through, well, have it start making and deleting objects at random. Chase the sheepbot throughout the grid. lag it, IM it, spam it, eject it, orbit it. Create a little mine field of self-renaming prims. Possibly, the sheepbot, if it's trying to be comprehensive, is going to scan things until it's "done". Maybe you could get it caught in a time loop.

Ok. Want to Opt Out of the SheepBot? Well, there's a few ways to possibly mess it up. You COULD always go for another one of the other MMORPGs, possibly one that will allow you to play 'hide the soul' and keep your items 'private'. Knock yourself out. Personally, I think it's free advertising. In fact, you could make objects that are called just about anything and this indiscriminate droid would come along and publish your manifesto in prim form on their website.

Oh, last but not least... Since it only lists items marked for sale, well, check all the prims and remove the for sale checkbox. Too much work? Write a libsl bot to do it. Too much work? Hire someone to do the work. Don't have enough money? Talk to CBS, they obviously have money to throw away on stupid projects. Maybe Morley Safer and Andy Rooney can help.

Am I wrong? Argue with yourself. I made my point. -- fu

I was a little wary of the name Fword at first - but having read it, I find the appropriate F word is:

FFFANTASTIC!!!!!

I award his post 6 emoticons, a record for me:

http://forums.secondlife.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forums.secondlife.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forums.secondlife.com/images/icons/icon4.gif http://forums.secondlife.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forums.secondlife.com/images/icons/icon3.gif http://forums.secondlife.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

Ok. Keeping in mind, I really don't care about the SheepBot scheme, I caught this thread talking to a friend... To me, like i said, way to go CBS, flushing your money down the toilet in ESC's legal fees if someone smart enough sees the loophole, and thanks for the free advertising... but... I'm on a roll, my rant continues onward, remember YOU can OPT OUT, and now on to this bit, from the sheep search Terms of Use:

Automation

Automated querying of this service is not permitted -- instead, write and let us know what API(s) would be most helpful for you to build new services or mash-ups. Let's talk; it will work better if we build it the Right Way!

Ok. Now, if you want to AUTOMATICALLY scan second life and republish information from others WITHOUT permission, you're a sheepocrit if you're going to tell me that I can't do it to you. And if you want me to write you and let you know what API would be most helpful before I potentially violate YOUR rights, well, you'd better write me and let me know before you republish a single word I type without asking me. As it stands right now, I think I'll be scraping your engine all I want to, republishing the results where I want to, and you can eat me, because you're full of sheepdip to even prescribe that you know what the Right Way is.

Further more, you clowns aren't too smart for doing this bit of nonsense in the first place. My object titles, their locations, and anything else I choose to create in-world, well buddy, that's copyrighted material, and if you're republishing it, guess what, you're violating more than enough law to expose yourself, and the opt out nature, well... I 'automatically scanned' Microsoft Encarta, slapped it on another website as a 'search engine', and have an 'opt out' page for Microsoft employees to sign up for... and you think I'm not going to get sued?

There. Of course, tomorrow, I'll take the other angle and prove why it's legal, because I JUST LIKE TO TYPE.

Well, I doubt it will be noticed at all, but I have pulled all my products from being available on SLB. I can't see allowing them to profit from my business when they operate in such a cavalier manner. Even though they don't charge me a fee to show my wares there, you know that they DO get ad revenue and other money and data from SLB's activity. So I say, let the sheep starve. I'm not feeding it any more.

At least I'll sleep better at night, knowing I am no longer associated with or supporting the ESC operations in even that tangental way.

Best new Buzzword of the week award.

lol

"Automated querying of this service is not permitted"

Well don't they have the nerve.

coco

Please bear with me... I'm having difficulty understanding what the fuss is all about. Maybe I'm missing something...


Say I'm carelss and tear off most of a price tag on a lamp I bought and put in my bedroom. (real world) Instead of $100.00, it now just says $1. A burglar/trespasser invades my home, takes the lamp and leaves a dollar.

Theft. Got it. Right. No argument. I'd be pissed as hell about it. No court in the country would say believe that I had intentionally offered the item for sale for $1, or that it was legitimately purchased by the thief, especially if I had my doors and windows locked.

I understand that analogy just fine. What I don't understand is why some of you think that this applies to sl. Banlines do not grant privacy, they only keep avatar bodies out. Prim walls only give the illusion of privacy. You all know this.

Furthermore

The tos gives lindesn a lot of power over our content. If they choose to allow esc to search and scan because it is more helpful than harmful it is their right. We agreed to that right by agreeing to the tos.

The permissions, the storage and stuff that represent our stuff are owned by lindens not us. We just possess or own what those bits represent.

In simple and exact terms, please help me to understand how what esc's methods are illegal or against tos. What rights allow you to issue a gag order against someone that saw stuff you left where you knew it could be seen?

To me part of the problem is that its not against the TOS/CS. I dont think the CS is all that well written and I think it mainly only benefits Linden Labs.

No ones issued a gag order - Someone has attempted organize placing prims for sale with false information so the spybot finds them and they go on the site.

Reguardless, the Community standards are the minimum we should be aspiring to - not the maximum we adhere to.

Beyond that, Im sorry but if after reading this entire thread you dont understand the basic opposing points of view - us rehashing everything isnt really a benefit.

The above statement is incorrect. Aside from the non sequitur of comparing whole sale copying of Encarta to the indexing of the title of an object, such indexing is in any event covered by the term "fair use" in the copyright laws.

I'm intrigued as to how by any stretch of the imagination you can demonstrate otherwise ?



I've read 20 pages of this and it seems that there is a lot of noise from a few people who are dead set against the search engine. The amount of noise seems out of all proportion to the actual effect of the engine.

So can someone tell me how many people (aside from the OP) out of the millions in SL have actually incurred a loss due to it ?

Damages are irrelevant to people's desire to be asked before being scanned and indexed.

The Government can wiretap someone's home and do no damage to them - its still objectionable.

Additionally anyone who thinks theres actually millions of SL users is being very naive.

But you are right in that its likely very few people who have suffered any financial damage from this.

Now say you are making a custom build for a corporate client with a contract that explicitly states it is a one-off for them only, and in the process of transfer, it gets swiped by someone usiong this wonderful new search engine. Still agree with it?

For the thousandth time though, setting the "for sale" button in Second Life is not the same as leaving a sales tag on an item in real life.

Setting the For Sale option on an item in SL automatically creates the business infrastructure for the item to be told. It doesn't just tell people that it might be on sale, it takes their money and validates their credit cards.

The precise reason why the For Sale button works this way is so that you can build locations that aren't obviously shops, but that still sell the items there. You can walk into a beautiful garden, see a plant that you like, right click and Buy, and take a copy home with you. It's a handy solution to enabling locations to earn some money without having an obviously commercially centered appearance. And yes, I'm sure there are (or at least there were) some people doing this deliberately with their houses - they know people will wander in, so why not take advantage of that?

Normally I'm keen to support the point of view that the technical settings in SL are just to express the underlying social contract, and the social contract is what really matters. So setting an object "resell/transfer ok" doesn't automatically mean that it is OK to resell and transfer that object - one may be allowed but not the other, for example. But in the case of "for sale" status, it's important for doing business that people are able to trust it.

(Sigh.) Looks like we will have to go through the basics of this every second page of this and any subsequent threads. Some people count on the common practice of not looking more than two pages back in a long thread. Okay, Rusty, here goes:

Yes, sigh, there is no question about legality. LL owns every 1 and 0 on their servers and can do anything they please with them, including things that drive Residents out of SL and amount to corporate seppuku for LL. That is their perfect legal right, to destroy themselves, if they choose. Problem with that is, tolerating this abortion of a "search service" is a first step in committing that act of corporate seppuku: Just look at the response of people when they hear about it. Today, people are repulsed by Electric Sheep. When it becomes clear that LL supports this, if they do, they will be repulsed by LL as well. Do you seriously want LL to harm itself for this?

I will defer to others on the question of TOS - but since when is finding a way around the letter of TOS a defense for something that demonstrably harms Residents and will obviously be detrimental to LL?

You seem not to notice Community Standards, a loose concept meant to cover the normal expectations of normal people of what constitutes acceptable and ethical social behavior in group settings. A lot of things are banned in its name that are not one tenth so offensive as an ill-announced product that suddenly enables grifters to take advantage of common, harmless, and until now noninjurious practices widespread in SL and sucker-punch innocent people who have never agreed to be part of it. Do you really want to pretend that this malignancy does not violate the spirit of having mores in SL and respecting them? Do you seriously want to put forward an argument that even most sociopaths would be embarrassed to make?

And finally, there is no gag order proposed here. That red-herring phrase of yours is entirely contradictory to the facts of the matter. ESC has chosen to impose a creation of theirs deeply offensive and potentially at least very injurious to both the Residents and LL, and those Residents who wish to protect themselves, their fellow Residents, and SL itself are undertaking to render that creation useless and invalid.

Your Rusty avatar has been around since 2004, though it appears little used. We do not know who your main avatar may be, or if indeed there is one. Nor do we know exactly how incestuous the relationship is between ESC and LL, though what is emerging is beginning to get alarming. So, whatever is going on behind the screen, "Rusty," do you really have no decency at all?

I understand better now, thank you. I was under the impression that some thought esc's behavior was a violation of law or tos/cs.



Warda- sure I would be angry! I would be just as angry at myself for not being more cautious! (and I always keep a backup copy of stuff anyway)

I may be nearly as angry that secondlife doesn't have what other games have, the ability to perform secure person2person sales where both make offers, the offers get locked and both agree to the deal and then it goes through. This is supposed to be a world that supports commercial activity and we can't even do that?

So we have to put up with deed to group instead which is sucky for small transactions but better for transfering ownership of elaborate builds-in-place.

Esc may facilitate and worsen this problem, but I think insisting on opt-in is futile.
We should insist on better transaction tools.

Why do you think insisting on opt-in is futile?

coco

You could say that allowing residents to interact with each other is "demonstrably harmful." Would you have the lindens do away with that as well?

Seriously, you imagine malice where others see merit.

Some risks are tolerable if the benefits are sufficient. I see great benefit to what esc is doing, and I understand the drawbacks as well. Do you honestly believe that esc's search tool and methods will drive away more people than it attracts? Besides, the forums themselves do a far better job of psyching people up to leave secondlife than esc could ever aspire to.

We agree there are risks and harms associated with opt-out based search&list. We differ on how to effectively reduce those risks.

Cocoanut- insisting on opt-in is futile because esc has no compelling reason to obey, and very compelling reasons to continue on without opt-in. Even if by some freakish chance you did get them to listen and change their mind, they won't be the only search bot in town. The only way to get them to comply is to lobby the lindens to change their tune regarding open sourced viewers and bots.

On the 1 to 10 futility scale I put that at a solid 9.9.