Linden Labs Response to Complaint "Huh"??

{Quote} "Linden Lab also alleged that “The objective of Bragg’s scheme was to obtain access to ‘virtual land’ that was scheduled to be auctioned by Linden in the future and thus before it was available to any other users, and to acquire it for as little as one U.S. dollar rather than whatever winning bid (in excess of the minimum opening bid of U.S. $1,000.00) might have resulted from a legitimate auction” and that “After acquiring the ‘virtual land’ through this fraudulent scheme, Bragg intended to subdivide it, sell it to other Second Life users, and potentially obtain thousands of dollars in U.S. funds in ill-gotten profit.” {End Quote}
{Quote}"Use of the exploit not only harmed Linden Lab, but Second Life Residents as well, by disrupting the in-world economy. If those who used the exploit had succeeded, not only would have they profited unfairly, but they also could have sold their parcels at below-market prices and still made a profit, putting legitimate sellers at a disadvantage.

Consistent with the goals of its Community Standards and the provisions of its Terms of Service, Second Life is designed to be a safe environment where users can express themselves, be creative, and develop safe and legitimate relationships and businesses. Mr. Bragg’s use of the exploit was contrary to the goals of the Community Standards and violated the Terms of Service." {End Quote}
{end Quote}

Boy try and rip off Linden Labs and they sure do put an end to it! Too bad they don't have the same integrity when Residents get ripped off the same way!

Funny how you can just reuse the text to apply to landbots and it fits. Of course the big difference is that landbots don't hurt Linden Lab so that should explain why they don't particularly care.

I guess that's the nice thing about owning something. You can pick and choose what you want to ignore or fight. A fight against Bragg is simple, he's one man. Landbots are harder to fight, I think. I don't know of anyone who has exact numbers on just how many are being used.

All that aside, I still find it amusing that he's getting prosecuted for this. Loophole or not, LL put it there, be it by accident or on purpose, and he's just being punished for using it.

Broken Xeno, he knew full well he was getting access to the auctions ahead of time and stealing the land.

If a shopkeeper forgets to lock the door at night, that doesn't make it ok for you to go in and take all his merchandise.

No, but when the shopkeeper comes in in the morning and finds all of his things missing, shame on him for assuming the world is full of people with morals. He should have made sure the door was locked. All I see when I look at this is Linden Labs feeling burned, because they lost money because of a mistake they made. I knew Bragg, in-world. He was a shrewd, money-hungry man, who owned vast amounts of property even before he accessed the land. If not him, then someone else for sure.

What should have happened was they should have taken the land back and refunded him, not banned him outright for exploiting an error on their part.

Yes, of course... We should never assume that people are mostly good, like we believe ourselves to be. We should always assume first the very worst about them, yes? Then we are safe? By that logic, I should place you on banlink now (No, I'm not gonna, I'm being ridiculous and sarcastic)

Yet should you trust me without even knowing me? I'm not telling the shopkeeper to not allow people in his store, I am telling the shopkeeper to be smart and not leave all the permissions on his property set to free access and assume someone wont come in and raise his land a few hundred feet into the air and leave mario particle poofers everywhere with signs that say "I jacked your crap!" all over the place.

I don't agree. Back to my hypothetical shopkeeper (RL shop, not SL), if he goes home for the night and forgets to lock the back door, it's certainly careless on his part. Does that mean he shouldn't call the police to arrest the person who walked in and stole his merchandise?

Bragg had every right to buy up all the land he could so long as he played by the rules the rest of us have to. I think you're not seeing that what he did could have hurt other residents too (by pre-emptively taking land that they otherwise would have had a chance to compete for) as well as LL.

People do careless things all the time. They get their computers hacked and their identities stolen and things they leave lying around get taken. And to an extent they are partly responsible for not being more alert, BUT that doesn't mean people who take advantage of those lapses should be smiled at and let off. Stealing is stealing.

I'm not advocating what he did. I agree, the shopkeeper would have full right to call the police, and I'd hope they would catch the guy. But what I am saying is I didn't agree with the ban. The whole mess, the whole lawsuit, and this whole conversation never would have happened if they'd checked their shit beforehand. Instead, in typical Linden Labs way, they halfassed it. They didn't bother. And really what that says is they don't bother with a lot of crap. And that speaks volumes for the rest of Second Life.

I never said Bragg was in the right, he was definitely in the wrong, but so was Linden Labs, on so many levels.

I have an aside I'd just like to throw out there.

When someone is selling land, and accidentally forgets a 0, it's on them. They made the mistake, and they pay for it. Linden Labs knows the landbot is there, and will buy the land for much cheaper than it should have been, and the original owner of the land loses money because in a lot of peoples eyes, from everything I have read, the person was cheated. Cheated by a bot.

Linden Labs got cheated, but so do a lot of people, every day. Does it make it right? No. Does Linden Labs do anything about the person getting cheated by the landbot? Of course not, because really it's not cheating in their eyes. It's just business. But if they feel cheated? Well, dealing with it is just business too.

Bragg was the one who sued.

I can agree there should have been a more amicable solution, but LL's suspending his account was not unreasonable in light of what he'd done. He chose to take it to court, according to LL, the same day the account was suspended.

I have my own quarrels with the way Linden Lab does things sometimes, but I really don't see how this is their fault.

game mechanics as much as they suck, ok
abusing the system, not ok

if he really was getting sims for a buck, banning him and reselling the land is the only fair thing

nuff said

I agree with you there. I don't know how much harder it would be to find and suspend the people running landbots than Bragg, maybe there are technical issues, but to the extent that they can stop landbots, they should.

He sued because they banned him, not because of the land issue. He owned A LOT of land, not just the land he got from that situation. We're talking hundred and hundreds of dollars. If I remember right, he told me he paid something like 800 dollars a month in land fees. When he was banned, they took ALL of his land. Deleted everything he'd ever made. And resold it all. This wasn't just about the land he got from the auction. I agree there should have been some sort of punishment, but banning because he found a loophole they left out? I dunno if I necessarily agree with that at all.

To go back to the recurring metaphor of the shopkeeper, the court isn't going to say "Well, you shouldn't have robbed him, but it's his fault for forgetting to lock the door, so just give the stuff back and you can go on about your business." There is still punishment.

I know. I said there should have been. But do you banish the child for catching them with their hand in the cookie-jar? I think it was harsher than necessary, and they should have counted it a lesson learned and double-checked everything.

He wasn't a child, and this wasn't a childish indiscretion. This was, if not outright theft, then the selfish exploitation of a loophole in the system to the tune of an awful lot of money.

The higher the stakes the game is played with, the more severe the consequences tend to be.

True. I suppose in the end you are right, still, I wish there had been another outcome for him. For the whole situation.

If Linden's account is correct, they didn't exactly take everything. They did sell his land (and if they hadn't he'd be paying that tier fee for land he couldn't use) but the money he had in the account AND the proceeds of the sales are being held and he could recover them, depending on the outcome of the lawsuit.

And yes, he spotted a weakness and tried to take advantage of it, for what could have been hundreds or thousands of real dollars in gain. That's not a hand in the cookie jar. It's not an innocent transgression or a mischievous prank.

is this a good time to point out that they are "fighting back" because he's the one that filled against them? What would you do? say nothing ignore the thing and go to jail for contempt of court?

common sense would say when someone gets a lawyer and files against you you go get your lawyer and explain yourself

sometimes its amazing what people read into things.


who is right and who is "wrong" here is irrelevant some guy makes a complaint againts you you tend to give evidence as to why you think his complaint is unfounded i mean you made a decision in the first place lol.

I guess i would like to know what others response would be if they were in linden labs shoes probably something similar

I believe if he had not filed suit the very day after his account was suspended that his money would be long gone. Linden Lab's policy is that they take everything - even the Lindens in your account. The guy was smart enough to make a big enough noise to get them to decide to go against their own policy. If LL really had any intention of giving Bragg his Lindens the check would have already been in the mail by the time LL received notice of the lawsuit.

Some of you say that there should have been a different solution because he had a lot of land prior to his exploit of the system. If he had a lot of property and assets then he should of never risked it by knowingly stealing. He knew full and well that what he was doing was wrong, and if he didn't feel that being caught would get him banned than he is just really dense. I think he found the exploit and just attempted to make as much as he could quickly as he could, and I'm sure he covered his previous costs and then some if he was buying sim's for a few hundred or less and reselling. He knew what he was doing was theft and he deserved the ban in my opinion. I have no pitty in this situation.

/agreed and he's milking this for all the free publicity he can get for his law practice.

Why should he get his money back?

As Sarah said, no pity. He tried to steal land assets potentially worth a lot of real money, which injured not just LL but also all of the other SL residents who buy and sell land and abide by the rules.

He knew full well what he was doing, and he chose to take the risk. He got caught. Why should he not forfeit his assets?

Because "stealing" X should not cause you to lose Y and Z. Or less abstractly, if you steal a pair of sneakers, why shouldn't you forfeit your house, car, and first born?

Also, the definition of "steal" here is being horribly mangled. From my reading, he had paid and LL had accepted payment for the sims in question. Then LL discovered they made a mistake in accepting payment.

This is another confusion supported by LL rhetoric. Nothing in SL has any value says the ToS; this is why they don't care when you lose all your inventory. Then, presto-chango, when they make a mistake suddenly stuff is very valuable.

And finally, Bragg had paid and was paying for a large number of sims. There is a valid dispute between Bragg and LL (please note I said valid "dispute" not "claim" and had Bragg not filed immediately, those assets would likely have vanished like teardrops in the rain. Sometimes one files a case quickly in order to prevent even more harm from being done.