All the TALK drove me to want it, haw about you?

I agree, and I bet that LibSL would never create anyting that could get at their precious scripts either, lol. (edit to add, I mean SL's scripts)

It's sad that only what we see all around us in SL is so devalued. I'm also sick to death of the insinuation that nearly everyone who uses textures in SL got them from somewhere else, that is not only bullshit, but the inferred idea that scripters are writing all their code from scratch or aren't simply modifying what already exists is just as absurd. Does that invalidate scripting? Bah.

A full permission exploit actually puts scripts at more risk than anything else, because while LL did (try to) fix any items that may have gotten full permission after taking the grid offline, nothing kept anyone from simply copying and pasting the whole script out of SL. If you go back to the blog post that announces the fix and read through the comments you'll notice that scripters are yelling far louder than any other category. Different methods affect one group more than they do another.

It doesn't really have anything to do with tech vs non-tech. I'm far in the non-tech group, but I know that LL can't and actually shouldn't play copyright/IP police. They're not allowed to, and if they attempt to do so they'll be in far more trouble (a big company like Coca Cola filing a lawsuit because LL didn't (pro)actively remove its trademark from SL - referring to the Coca Cola cans some people made which are clearly in violation). They have to "play dumb" for their own good.

(The following applies to making a copy and then distributing the copy, I'm not referring to making a copy under fair use) Apple and iTunes has been thrown around a bit. If you circumvent Apple's DRM or publish a how to, then Apple can sue you (I know that's debatable, assume they can for the sake of making the analogy work a little bit ), not because you copied a song some record label owns, but because you circumvented their DRM. The reason it would do it is not because it's concerned about the fact that you circumvented it, but because it wants to appease the record companies who trust Apple DRMs to keep their songs safe from rampant copying.
If you attach your MP3 player to your computer and record it that way, Apple is no longer in the picture and it's up to the record companies themselves (or the RIAA) to seek legal action against you.

Change Apple to LL, record companies to content creators, song to prims, DRM to permissions and MP3 player to copybot and it's just as true.

Ironic isn't it? Especially being that the folks who are really coming down the hardest on the content creators right now mostly tend to be coder types.

I was aware that scripts were also vulnerable in those expolits, and in fact, I'd guess that was exactly why LL reacted so swiftly. They get all dreamy eyed about scripting it seems.


I disagree on the tech/non tech part. I've been following the threads in this forum for days now on this issue, and their is definately a disconnect there - one which is exacerbating the issue. There has been a lot of snarky back and forth, and a lot of it has been coming from frustrated tech types who are basically saying "Dummies! I can't believe you didn't know..."


Yes, and this is why I spoke more about perceptions and the role that LL plays in creating them, and not legalities. I REALLY think they need to disclaim LOUDLY the things you have outlined above, and not bury it in the ToS or in vague answers AFTER the fact.

The main problem here is not so much copybot and more so Linden Lab and the implied safety of their service, coupled with the way they market the product. They need to communicate better. Not everyone coming into SL attracted by the "build your business here" marketspeak are copyright and DMCA experts or even have a really good grasp on the subject. In fact, I'd guess very few do, so LL really should communicate better.

I just asked a related question on the Linden Answer's forum. I'm really interested in the response.

In SL, yes. Outside SL, software has been the most heavily "pirated" content until very recently, and it's probably not that far behind music even now. We're not smug, we're cowed and beaten.

I don't know, Zeno, I think there's a paradox here. Because as a scripter I feel like physical content creators getting way more respect from residents and way more support from Linden Labs. Yes, right now scripts are well protected but at the cost of having to run completely on the server... I would happily give up some protection in exchange for being able to run scripted animations and effects on the client where there's so much spare CPU power that the supposed 50x speed increase for Mono is miniscule by comparison. Not only is the scriipting engine terribly slow, there are huge horrible flaws in the design of the language... flaws that won't be fixed by going to Mono... that make the whole scripting system seem like a barely tolerated afterthought.

Perhaps it's just a matter of the grass being greener on the other side.

I guess the grass is always greener because I could go on and on about the problems on my end dealing with prims and textures and rendering, SL's graphic engine is outdated and looks sad compared to the new ones. There is little in SL that doesn't need improvement at this point, heh. But I think that Phillip in town hall once again assuring everyone that the scripts were protected while at the same time making analogies to stealing pics off the internet and how it can't be helped *shrug* when it comes to prims or textures, that made me believe this is more than just residents fighting among themselves, there is a bias there. Or maybe it's just recent events, with the chat script and the people posting on the blog or here dismissing this as nothing to be concerned about since it's "just prims" (they usually don't even bother to mention the textures on them).

My biz partner is a rl programmer and I can ask him to script something and he can ask me to make a particular graphic and we respect each other's training and abilities. That is all I ask from anyone, including LL. My building abilities aren't anything to brag about and I have great respect for those who have invested the time and effort necessary to build beautiful complex objects, as well.

If respect is paid in Lindens though, I would guess clothing and skin designers have it over all of us, lol. I could do that but I'm not interested, I work in 2d already, it's the 3d aspect of SL that drew me to it to begin with. Plus I was frustrated rather than inspired with the limitations in clothing, the lack of meshes, the painted on look, it drove me nutz. I'm happy to be a consumer on that end, heh.

I guess it's just general human self-absorbtion, people don't tend to think anything is a "problem" until it effects them, personally.

Interesting. I wonder how many other scripters have similar feelings.

The bolded part of your reply is exactly what popped into my head when I read your first paragraph. I still think there is a disconnect, at least within SL (to echo what you said in your previous post), but maybe my definition of it was not wholly accurate.

Awhhhh shucks, I thought you were talking about pixel sex!!!

here is a lil idea for the LL's to do get about 5-10 techs and make anti scripts for the copybot and put them on the servers and using all the symbols known to man on a pc cuse if you think about it why can the scripters of SL make a anti script for the copybot that works but the big IT's at LL can't do nething about it i think the scripters in SL should be the IT's at LL if they can make a anti script in game for the copybot but the IT's can't in real life

For no reason?

Steal a texture, and that's all you have. No .PSD file, no masks, vectors, layers, gradients, brushes... just the final result.

Steal a script... and you get not just the function it performs, but quite often you get all the programming tricks and secrets the programmer has learned in the last weeks or months. You can take any of the things they've worked on mastering and make it your own in ways that no one could ever track.

I don't care how long it takes person X to make a texture, or person Y to make a script... *MORE* is lost when scripts are stolen than when textures are stolen.

(And I'm saying this as both a scriptor and content creator... My REVENUE in SL depends on Textures more than scripts, and I'm still tired of people demanding LL wave some magic wand and put the rabbit back into the hat.)



The DMCA page has been featured prominantly on the SecondLife website for a long time. It would be utterly foolish for someone to make a career out of generating creative content and ignore it.

I have the same feelings, as a scripter. I find Argent speaks very eloquently and practically on the subject, and I agree with everything he has said thus far.

Oh, rubbish. When someone steals either a script or a texture the chances that they are using it as some learning tool are next to nil. Your same argument can be used for builders, they have tricks of the trade too, that took a long time to learn.

When someone steals a texture, they are stealing everything that person learned too and they get the finished result and whatever artistic talent that person has. People don't learn how to use photoshop any quicker than they learn how to script. And you can reuse a script in ways that you simply cannot with textures unless you are lazy. Other than variations in color, especially for clothing and skin designers, you have to do something new each and every time. And that takes a lot of work.

This is petty bullshit, "my work is more valuable than yours".

Exactly. What they're doing is more likely scavenging for parts.



I deliberately left prim-art out of my post. When I look at something in SL, I can see how it's made and, could, if I wanted to expend the effort, duplicate it. I'm too busy making my own stuff and barking like a fool on the forums though. Everything is right there in the open with prims.



The part of your reply that I bolded supports my point.

I was simply saying that more is stolen when a script is stolen than when a texture is stolen.

How you interpreted that as meaning the part I put in red... I have no idea. Particularly since I just said that I depend more on my textures than scripts for revenue.

The PETTY part is the "Scripters are picking on us cause they think they're superior" part. No, scripters are picking on texture makers because they can't see how so many people can ignore the bloody obvious.

Don't recall saying that. In fact, I said that their frustration is understandable.

Why do I need layers and masks and so forth to use them in SL? I don't if I am going to steal them, I just need to be able to slap it on a avatar or a prim. Also, it's not difficult (as I am sure you know) to grab a texture containing an alpha with GLintercept or the like, and to then turn the transparency into an alpha channel. Especially for someone who knows how to rip textures in the first place. Regardless, all I need is the finished product for use in SL, and that's the whole ball of wax really, isn't it? That the person ripping the texture or sculpture, or yes even script, didnt have to do the work to get the final product! You can bet on it, that I would be upset if scripter's content was in danger too.

Here is the heart of the issue. You place more value on scripts. This is central to my point about some coders and the way they are reacting to non-scripter creators.

One could argue, well a car needs an engine (script) to work, so without the engine there really is no car. Likewise though, without the framework the engine is just an engine and not a car either, which demonstrates that they are both important. What would SL be without: Textures? Scripts? Prims? Animations? Not SL, that's what. They're all important and interdependent, so placing one above the other can only lead to <unnecessary and foolish> contention.

Jopsy, I have not said one was more important than the other. Are you implying that scripts are, and that therefore scripters have a right to howl at content creators? If so, that is the attitude I am referring to. Are you insinuating that because you and others may feel scripts are of more value, that people whose content is not scripts don't have the right to be upset if their content is threatened, because people with scripting skills value their work more?

Does that mean that if Gilligan's hat is stolen, that he has no right to be upset about it because The Professor values his test tubes above Gilligan's hat?

Some are, I am not. I realise that it can't be done for all intents and purposes. I am simply saying I believe LL could do a little more pre-emptively, so that when things like this happen the shitstorm is less intense.

A tiny link in size 6 or 8 font is "prominent"? Also - that page linked there does not tell a new player how vulnerable content is. It simple tells them how to file a DMCA, mostly after the fact.

I see I should have expanded on my thoughts a bit more. The post was already getting large so I didn't, but here is what I was getting at...

There should be a link on the sign up page, and maybe even on the front page, one that is actually "prominent", which says something like:

"Planning on doing business in SL? Well there are some important facts you should know - click here for our primer on starting an SL business."

The primer would then detail how safe (or unsafe) their creations will be and include a link to the DMCA page. I don't think that's too difficult to create, or asking too much ask. If one had been there already many creators would have already been aware of the issues. It would also serve as a nice CYA for LL, because then the people raising hell now could simply be asked if they had read the primer.

In a world where stepladders have 12 different warning stickers on them, I don't think some type of business primer and/or FAQ is terribly a over-the-top suggestion.

Just as an aside, LibSL and the main person in it, and any scripters and coders who think people who build with prims are stupid cows, guess again.

I knew that this could be done months ago, probably a year ago, because I had it demonstrated to me.

And I imagine a lot more of the supposedly stupid prim content builders knew about it, too.

Did I go yelling about it all over the world? Did I go showing it off and bragging about it? Using it to take things that didn't belong to me? And then joking about it and all the upset "blingtards?"

No. For one thing, it is against TOS (or rather, seems to be against it depending on WHO YOU ARE, as usual).

And for another, because it would be gigantically irresponsible, tantamount to bringing down a huge chunk of LL.

coco

Sunspot- I don't disagree with the suggestion... of course you can only put up so many warning signs before someone just overdoses on them and ignores them all. Can only hope that they pay attention to enough of them to stay out of trouble.

I know I'm being a little hot under the collar in this thread, not my intention... a bad day is making me quick to be surly here when it shouldn't.

My chief complaint was that theft of a finished product like a texture, doesn't bring with it the means to make variants. Theft of a script does.

Prims, of course, are a different matter. There's just no equating them. There SHOULD be no us vs. them. Content creators in SL, whatever their skill set, should have some reasonable expectation of maintaining creative control over their works... the options available to them however are limited depending on their area of expertise.

Your attitude is exactly the reason that argument came up at all. I don't devalue scripters but you sure as hell devalue everyone else.

Now that really annoys me, I hear this all the time, "I could create it myself, if I wanted to." This is one of the reasons builders are undervalued, just because something is theoretically possible doesn't make it so. "Anyone" could build the Aerodome, I only see ONE. "Anyone" could build a Starax sculpture, show them to me. Show me all the shoes all over the grid of the same quality of Shiny Things or Lassitude and Ennui et al. I'll sit here and wait.

You lose "more"? Define "more"? Is your time and knowlege and talent more valuable than mine?

You know, it's amazing you brought up the motor analogy!

Just last night, I was saying to a friend, it's like some people - including the Lindens - are all entranced with the motor of a car, constantly taking it apart, putting it back together, improving it, seeing what it can do, and so forth.

Of course the motor is vital to the car, which wouldn't be of much use without the motor. But they don't ever see PAST the motor.

The frame, the paint, the design, the marketing, the features, the whole purpose for having the motor in the first place - they just don't think of those as important at all.

It's like the motor is all they see, and all they value.

Must be an apt analogy, if we both thought of it!

coco

I agree, Jopsy, I think it is making a lot of us hot under the collar. I know I've been in a bad mood over it, and it probably really isn't worth that. I apologize for my bad humor. Maybe things will improve. Or if not, I'll just get over it some day anyhow.

coco

Here's another thing, by the way. It is certainly not a matter of one thing being harder than another - scripting, versus texture making, versus building with prims - and thus more valuable.

How hard a thing is is largly defined by a person's own standards; how high a person wants to take a thing - not the thing itself.

Take me, for instance. I minored in math in college, and I was a mu alpha theta, and I know, for a fact, that I could master scripting and become very good at it. IF I wanted to.

I don't want to! I want to build with prims. I spend hours and hours and hours getting my build to the vision I have for it. So do other builders, and so do texture artists, or clothing and skin designers.

Just because one doesn't CHOOSE to do scripting doesn't mean one is incapable of it, so the argument that any scriptor could easily build houses can be turned right back around on you. A lot of us could just as easily script.

Moreover, no scriptor can't easily turn around and make a Julia Hathor house, unless they copy her, and NEITHER COULD I. Because art and personal vision is involved.

Of course, art is involved with numbers as well, and with thinking outside the box and the other types of creativity scripting involves, if you're any good at it. But - to a lesser degree, I think we can agree on that.

So to say that you could do everything a builder or texture maker can, if you wanted to - well, you couldn't. Because you are not that person. You are not Julia Hathor or Starax. You could do very well as yourself, of course, but believe me, it wouldn't be the snap some people seem to think it is. You would have to work very hard at it.

And it is most assuredly not a matter of which takes more time.

coco <-----shut up already!

I agree with all you've said here, and am sorry that I get a bit snarky and pendantic at times. I would like to see creators of all stripes come together when things like this happen. That's probably because like you, I don't fit into any one type of creator, and I care about SL.

Stomps gas pedal and cackles with glee as the tires squeal!

Io-

You're not hearing what I'm trying to say.

I wish I could find a way to articulate my point more clearly.

He. Did. Not. Say. The. He. Placed. More. Value. On. Scripts.

He said that when you stole a script, you got the equivalent of the PSD file and associated information that you don't get when you steal a texture. That is, you got more of what went into creating the script. The equivalent of "a texture" would be just getting the compiled form of the script, without the source code. LL doesn't give scripters the ability to just release the finished product the way texture creators can.

That's all that "more" means. It doesn't mean "more valuable", it means "more complete".