SL Developers/Content Creators

Why didn't you do anything about CopyBot?


Your answer will be "Because I didn't know about it."

CB was a surprise to all of us, Lewis. It's impossible to put a stop to something you know nothing about.

There are 10 types of software devloped today: those with published, publicly available source code and those where the source code is kept private. These are defined as "open source" and "closed source". An argument over semantics is pointless.

I didn't do anything about CopyBot because it stole my will to live.

MM

I thought the idea of an open source group was that everyone worked together on the project, and that releasing copybot under the 'libsl' name meant that it had the group's management's blessing?

Lewis

That's your problem: you assume. If you'd asked anyone who actually knew what was going on, you would have gotten a very different answer.

At the time CB was released, there were several people with write-access to the SVN archive. Any of those people could write anyhthing they want to the SVN archive. Once a file is commited to the archive, it is impossible to remove. You can delete the file, but all that really does is create a new revision of the archive in which the file doesn't exist. At any time, someone can go back to an older revision in the archive and retrieve the file.

The way source control works is that only changes are saved when you update the archive. This means that it's always possible to "go back in time" and retrieve older versions of the data in the archive.

Think of it like wathcing a DVD: the scene changes a little bit at a time, and even if you remove something from the picture, you can always hit "Rewind" and the object is back on the screen.

... so in essence, what you're saying is that nobody is in overall control, and you have to trust those you're working with - who have now proven beyond doubt that they can't be trusted.

The simple reality here is that the name 'libsecondlife' will forever be tarnished, and anything done under this name at any time in the future will be associated with this problem.

I'd say it's a good time to disband.

By the way, I don't think anyone has actually satisfied the question of how this group were able to break the ToS with Linden blessing in the first place, and why this permission was given when it obviously shouldn't have been.

Lewis

Dr. Tardis,

You have showed a remarkable amount of restraint under some very adverse conditions. You have answered each query with logic and reason. Unfortunately some here will never be swayed by reason or the fact that LibSL has stepped up on many occassions to protect SL in the form of handing over exploits. I sincerely hope that some have made contact to explore this idea further. I would also hope that the conversation does not degenerate into something less then usefull.

If I remember right, the godmode hack had nothing to do with open source. It was a binary (closed source) hack/patch.

BTW, SL uses tons of open source stuff today:
- Linux (open source operating system) on the servers, and possibly tons of other open source programs, libraries, too, on the servers
- The client uses libexpat, mozilla, openssl, ogg, and other open source libraries

The 'product' of Lindens is more and more hosting. They host sims, the asset database, a trusted L$ economy (Linden Dollars). If they open source just the client, they will still retain their income, and will be afford maybe to even cut prices, have better support, etc, because some or much of the development could come from outside.

Mozilla Firefox browser is Open Source, and millions of people use it comfortably. Many people use Firefox to connect to their online banking systems, too.

Well, Dr. Tardis, you have a hard time convincing me that LL doesn't support LibSL, in that three Lindens were in the group last I looked, and then there's Cory Linden's love letter to them on the blog.

That LL give them sims to use to test their things - without having to pay for them - is another indication. I don't recall LL giving the rest of us free sims to use.

Really, we aren't all total idiots.

Copybot is an exploit, and is being used by others as an exploit, and LibSL made it easy for people to get by posting it on their website. And, as if that weren't enough, they demonstrated it in the world and laughed at the residents who would be upset by it.

And no, I'm really not interested in why you wouldn't define a mechanism designed to change the environment, that was created from reverse engineering the client (both things against TOS), and to steal other residents' content, as an exploit.

What someone else suggested about coming up with useful things to protect our work - you know, I bet you could do that. Code something that will help people for a change.

So far, we've gotten stalking, huge sim-killing prims, and copybot.

I recognize that you are trying to reach out, Dr. Tardis, and that's something. I do appreciate that. I think you would be better off to start a whole new group, though.

coco

When did we turn into such a bunch of bigots?

Burn the Infidel Unverifieds!

Burn the heretical LibSL'ers!

Burn the Lindens for ignoring and oppressing us!

Burn the Left!

Burn the Right!

Burn burn Fight fight fight!

It just copied it. I saw it at a yard sale last night for L$100.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do. SafeSL has nothing to do with libSecondLife.

The Fact that i am Asking these questions demonstrates that you have presented Little so far that would Inspire Confidence in your Proposed Group, and i'm Not diverted by someone Patting me on the head while saying "Those are Very Good Questions". I don't want to be Patronized, I want Answers.

Some Time ago, I joined the A Group set up to assist new Players, a Good group at the time, Volenteers assisting new people to acclimate to the SL environment, But after a time i began seeing disturbing things. Members with thier own Political or social axes to grind, (Unfair, Inaccurate or Malicious "Warnings" against various groups and persons within SL) Griefing of new people, Scamming, So Many things. It was all reported to the Organizers, Meetings were held, But still, There was no Interviews for new Members, No Orientation, No proper screening or training what-so-ever. New Members were being added fast and Furious, and the Final Straw for me was hearing on the groups Private Chat line two of them Councelling a 14 year old player on the Adult grid How to avoid detection by LL, or the other players. I reported that Incident to Linden Labs, and Resigned my Membership in complete disgust. Most of the group WERE well Intentioned, but a signifigant Faction had grown within it that felt NO responsibility to the group, the players, or LL and it seemed there was No will on the part of the group executive to Tackle the problem. It reached a Point where any Good they had done was being More than Offset by the griefing that was going on under the Umbrella of our name and reputation.

I want to hear what safeguards You have Already worked out to Prevent Abuses by your group, and How you Intend to reach your Goals WITHIN the game structure. "Some of our ideas may require changes to SL itself to work." is NOT an answer because it Presupposes conditions that Simply DO NOT EXIST. I don't want to hear "We can work out the details later" because that is how such "Details" get skipped over, and your group can end up being Discredited Long before you get around to Stopping up the Cracks.

We all Understand the Proposal, But IF you want to Instill confidence or Invite cooperation you Need a Few more Concrete Ideas on these and Other issues BEFORE you start asking for Members.

Angel.

I think you misunderstand my intent.

I don't want to play God and make up a bunch of rules myself. I want to get the community actively involved in the process. That's why I'm not coming up with all this stuff on my own. I could, but it wouldn't be as good as what a group of dedicated people can devise when they work together.

Then what you have is this:

Nothing.

A proposal for a course of action naturally must include a coherent and demonstrably achievable outline of what you actually plan to do. That's just common sense. You have provided nada y nada and have continued to do so on being asked.

Couple that with your very dubious affiliation, and well ... gee. What did you really expect?

how about getting off his backside for trying to gather people to a cause..

and let the group.. once assembled, determine it's own coure of action through consensus (voting, democracy, things like that)?

In my experience.. groups with "strong leaders with concrete, unbending plans" don't want members who can think.

If your neighbor in RL went door to door, and said "I want to get everyone to call the police and complain about the pool parties that joe has" most people would just smile, and nod, and close the door. A few concerned people might do it, but odds are, most wouldn't. If that same neighbor, instead, went door to door, inviting everyone in your neighborhood to a meeting to discuss neighborhood issues and concerns, and to work together as a group rather than as individuals.. it's quite possible that most people would go.

at the meeting, they could discuss their issues, and perhaps explain to that one neighbor, that Joes parties are for everyone, and that he really should come down next saturday, and bring some of that great potato salad.

That's not quite the best analogy. sorry about that.

But anyone who starts out with a bold, clearly defined recipe for action, BEFORE gathering people.. has his head up his hinder. AT that point, you're recruiting soldiers" to do your bidding"... not "gathering voices and building strategies."

And the best part is as SL has expanded the ignorance and intolerance has only gotten worse.

Thanks, Winter.

That expressed my thougts better than I could have.

I'm out of town for the weekend. For those of you who are curious, www.safesl.org.

thanks!
-Tom

That's good to know, Dr. Tardis.

Glad it will be an independant group.

coco

And any group that starts out all wiggly and amorphous with respect even to its basic goals and has no actual starting point for discussion never gets beyond the "lets all get together for chips and dip" phase.

If Dr. Tardis actually has some kind of a plan in mind, even if that plan is discussed and abandoned in favor of a different plan, that would probably be helpful. Without at least a clearly stated direction, it's just a coffee klatch. But without the coffee.

Winter, and Dr. Tardis,

Even should the group begin with no set formula for achieving it's Goals, it should STILL have in place some method for gaining, and Maintaining Both Order, and Respect within the group. A Prime example of this would be ANY Debate group that encourages Full, and Open Discussion, while Being Bound by Roberts Rules of Order. Those Rules do Not stifle debate, they simply Keep Order.
As i said before, What is Needed is Adaquet Safeguards to Guarantee the CONDUCT of it's Members while exploring their future Options.

From Dr. Tardis's one words, "Why didn't (He) do anything about Copybot? Simple (He) didn't Know about it." Had there been adaquate checks and Balances within that group, Those responsible and Constructive Individuals COULD have seen the Copybot Fiasco in the Offing and took steps to Prevent, or Minimize it and/or Discipline those Members Bent on using the groups resources for harmful, or disreputable ends.

Dr. Tardis's Own Words Openly PROVE the Need for such safeguards to Be in place BEFORE a group begins Building in size, and scope. At the Moment, He Isn't so much looking to Build a New Group, as recreate the Old one under a New name, Not Intentionally of course, But by Flatly refusing to Learn the Lessons of his Past experiences, he is Dooming himself to Repeat the Same Mistakes, and Dooming the rest of us to Suffer the results.
I WOULD like to see a group In Place to Protect the content creators of Second Life, but More importantly, I want to know "Who's Policing the Police"? You Can't expect Us, or anyone else to have Confidence in you as long as you Resist behaving Responsibly, and Proving that Your group will not become a Bigger problem than the one they profess to be solving.

My Questions stand, and as yet Remain Unanswered.

Angel.

I certainly do have a plan. The web site has bits and pieces of it, and as I work up more ideas, I'm posting them.

OK I have vocally disagreed with what has recently happened but after reading this thread i think instead of being negative i have joined SafeSL. Now i know its not going to be the answer to all my prayers, but i suppose its a step in the right direction.

We ALL understand SL is probably on the brink of some major shifts, of which we can all but guess at and im sure many of us will be correct in our ideas on this, but also i think we could be standing on the brink of something fantastic if we try and become part of the solution rather than the problem maybe we may even enjoy the laggy ride

Yes i accept some people have recently done some real dumb things, things that i would expect from a 10 year old rather than a mature adult, but these things have happened and we can do to things now imho. We can either stay here discussing this problem until all these new folks leave the moaners behind and change SL into what it will eventually become, or we can be part of the new solution, LLs will im sure be releasing some cool changes into the world soon they intimate in various postings, that we will have better tools at our disposal.

So my Annual Membership is up on the 15th December and i am going to renew it and try and remember to part of the solution these coming months and then if i really cant see it going forward, i will then leave quietly and without a fuss and find somewhere else , but for the forseeable future i think i will ride it out here and try and make a difference, Brave new worlds and all that

Peace

NOw you all need to tell your friends, so we can get this thing moving!