Should I buy mainland or not?

I would buy Mainland ONLY if you want to live next to an AD Farm! Or enjoy those terrific rotating signs that are stacked on top of each other. If you happen to buy some Mainland that isn't with in sight of an AD Farm, Don't you worry none!!! It will be at your back door before you can say "YEHAWW"

For a beginning store owner renting space in a mall has some advantages: you get traffic even if you dont advertize your wares. People looking for something different may just pass your store and view your hopefully beautifull products.
Well this only works if you are in the "right mall":

A mall that is getting some customers already, a deserted place wont help you.

Your store will not be in the deserted corner of the mall.

Your products fit in without duplicating: I mean a wedding dress shop in the middle of a Bondage mall feels misplaced, while a wedding dress store in the middle of 5 other wedinng dress stores .....


If you are hell bound on owning your own land: dont overpay. Take a look at this: jeweledway in Miru (at the time of writing a huge beautiful plot of really Linden protected Land for 14 L/sqm). Once you do you wonder how all those sellers of land expect 10+Lindens for their crappy mainland near some adfarm.

Up front I will state that I own estate sims, two solely commercial, one mixed commercial residential and two solely residential (with a third on order for residential). I also own a full mainland sim with a mall on it.

First, select mall exposure may help you get your name out in addition to whatever main location you decide to possess. Many clothing designers are in many many mall locations with landmarks back to thier main stores.

The choice between mainland and estate is important and should always be a considered and personal choice governed by weighing the benefits and drawbacks to each situation. Further, as one one considers estate land, one must consider the covenant and the character of the Estate Owner.

Mainland: As you've noted, there are downsides to mainland ownership. Today's beautiful lag-free sim can become tomorrow's ad-farm or hots-spot club with 24-7 events, or camping nightmare or casino or any combination therein... including the possibility of a place that packs in so many folks that no one will be able to tp into your place of business... including you. The upside is you have no rules or regulations about what you build, the nature of your business (as long as you comply with TOS, including sim rating), the signage you use, and so forth. There is no middle man between you and the Lindens with regards to tier, so again, as long as you comply with TOS, your land and investment should be safe (unless of course you accidentally set it for sale to anyone for far below market value....but that's another problem entirely).

Estate: Here your big risk is that there is a middle man between you and the Lindens with regards to tier. You *might* run into an Estate Owner who is either unscrupulous or one who jumps in too deep too fast and finds hiim- or herself unable to continue paying tier, either way closing up shop and leaving those who have bought in with nothing but a messy lost and found folder. I think such estate owners are in the minority and while I'm sickened for those who have lost to that minority, I do not believe that all estate owners should be damned by the action of the few.

The upside is that there are rules, rules that you will find either appealing or too rigid, depending on the sim/estate owner. The rules are there to govern the sim, hopefully in ways to keep the lag minimal, the atmosphere pleasing and so on.

Thre is nothing I can advise you with as much sincerity and conviction as to be certain you have researched all your options thoroughly; that you take time to study covenants and carefully weigh your choices, in the end making the best possible choice for yourself.

As a final note, I would reference back to whichever poster referenced that Caledon's prices were on par with mainland or possibly at a bit of a premium and I wuold challenge this to be false if we are speaking of buy-in price, at least to date. While the current sims may appear to be higher in price per m2 by comparison to the mainland, they are also double prim sims, meaning you get twice the prims on your lot than you do mainland. This makes the price per *prim*, lower than mainland, by far.

Beginning with my own Apparition Wood, I have adopted this model. It leaves open space that can be carefully themed for unity, beauty and/or functionality between parcels, while giving residents (residential or commercial as they may be), more prims to utililize in the space alloted. Generally, nature (and mankind) abhors a vaccuum and we tend to build to the size of our lots, not the size of our need and then have trouble having enough available prims to fill the space. So these sims sort of solve a multitude of isseues at once.

With regards to tier for these sims, I have not checked Des' rates lately, but I have kept my own on a per *prim* basis, as close to the mainland tier fees as possible, despite the higher cost (on my new sims) of tier that I pay ($195 a month for my mainland sim, $295 for each new estate sim purchased). If you factor in the premium member fee that is not required when purchasing/leasing/renting on Estate land, in addition to the rate chart on the land usage fee, I think I'm actually quite reasonable and so is Desmond with Caledon.


Char

Sorry I don't mean to correct Princess but I sold my first land and still have my 512m bonus in new spot. Biggest issue with land on mainland is the cost of acquiring it. I have spent close to 1k in usd for 13824m2 if I wanted to move I would lose money because no one would pay for it with the current prices

Yep, own land is the best choice. Rented shop space in malls... well, you can advertise your shop there too, but these places usually have a teleport routing and all new arrivals pop up at the same spot, probably far away from your shop. I usually tp out again if a classified ad lures me into a mall with thousands of slowly loading textures.

But you won't be too happy with 512 sqm only. Small space, small prim limit... you may soon find that you need to expand, and then be unable to find more land within the same sim. No running costs is also an illusion. In order to sell anything, you'll have to invest in a classified ad.

I don't see the problem with the ad farms and neighbors with ugly builds - just build a shop in the sky like I'm doing.

There is simply no need to keep a shop on the ground in SL. It's quite easy to get away from the clutter.

I'm quite happy owning mainland. If I ever finish my shop (RL concerns making it take WAY too long), it's nice to know it will be secure as long as I don't mess up. I would totally hate having to rely on the whims of a landlord.

Yes I would agree with you there Char.

The concept of double prim purchase/rental cost did not occur to me when I made that post, but your views on open space double prim zoning are quite correct. Desmond and Anshe both offer that, and the last time I looked I thought the prices were fair, especially taking into account most if not all double prim land was located on class 5 servers.

I think the points you make about responsible Island ownership are correct although I have not knowingly visited your land. In particular I made another point today about legal responsibility within Second Life on another thread, a common sense Island owner could shield his or her tenants from legal wrongdoing by effective covenants

Even if you don't keep the store there forever, that 512sq.m. of Mainland will only cost maybe US$30 up-front, and unless you make a really bad selection or land values really tank, you can recoup most of that or more on resale. What can you get on an estate for that amount of money and no recurring fee (beyond premium membership)? (Yes, you will pay for classified ads for the business, but you will on an estate, too--unless you're content with walk-in customers only, I suppose.)

If you're skilled and careful you can do amazing things with 117 prims--and this will become even more true as the worst kinks are worked out of sculpties.

It's not a huge deal with only the 512sq.m. "bonus" allotment, but Mainland holdings get a 10% discount if deeded to Group. I've not seen anything like that in estate covenants, but maybe it exists somewhere.

Even a settled Mainland neighborhood can have somebody sell out and something unsightly spring up. On the other hand, you risk a bad neighbor on the Mainland, vs the possibility your Estate owner will flake out and the whole sim evaporate overnight, or be mis-administered to the point of being unusable.

Another poster pointed out the perils of Landing Point-routed malls. These seem to be dying out anyway as retailers get smarter, but always check: unless it's tiny, if the mall has a Landing Point set, you do *not* want to advertise your location there--it's just throwing away your ad budget. Such a location can still have some value as a secondary store for walk-in traffic and "brand recognition", but pay no more than 1/3 the rent for equivalent space and traffic in a teleport-anywhere mall.

Thanks for the happy comments ^^ Yes, I've been running a waiting list, though I tend to lose some people because sometimes they get tired of waiting weeks and weeks.

Honestly though the draw is the community, not what I'm doing per se. Regarding land rates - they only stay reasonable if new sims open at realistic rates. I paused between Dec 06 and Mar 07, toward the end of which I'd heard of rental rights in Victoria City going for over $L 40/m. I strongly, strongly discourage that but there's little anyone can do when both parties are happy.

The price craziness went away once new sims started opening again but I can only manage a region so big... and I'm personally not interested in becoming Anshe and hiring middle-managers. So Caledon may stop growing one day, maybe within the next year, at which point I dread to think what will happen to land rates. How big should Caledon be? Still haven't figured that one out yet.

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Ownership - every time I hear the term 'ownership' in regard to a private sim, I feel it's just wrong.

Ownership implies a strong degree of direct control. Even in a real rented apartment, a landlord can't just come in and grab people by the arm and throw them out in the middle of dinner - there are laws, judgements, notices and so forth that have to be observed. And that's mere *rental* in RL.

Whatever anybody decides to call it on the grid, the facts are this: Anyone who controls an island can click 'ban', 'reclaim', 'mute'. We are talking 10 seconds here.

Perhaps there might be some degree of recourse later, but whomever is paying the USD tier on the island is in control, able to leave residents out on the virtual street, as it were, to seek recourse any way they might.

Proof of wrongdoing is *very* hard to secure, publishing chatlogs without consent is a terms-of-service violation on the grid, and often, the person in control of the sim is in a sociopolitically stronger position to defame the resident than the other way around.

Justice is a precious commodity, usually more expensive than the risks taken, leaving a resident in a *very* untenable position should there ever be a dispute with anyone paying USD tier on a sim.

Be incredibly cautious.

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To the original person asking about land:

I'd say: don't get any. Not for a long, long, long time. At least, not until you have a deep understanding of who and what you are dealing with.

Des, the OP can purchase a mainland 512 for around US$20 and pay no monthly tier because they are already premium. Seems like there's no reasons to wait in my opinion. Worse case, he can resell the land for what he bought it for. So in essence there is very little risk that I can see.

Thanks again to everyone for the input. Like I said I'm in no hurry, and will probably make my final decision after a few months. The whole thing is a moot point if I find I've over-estimated my content creation skills and/or abilities.

I have actually already shelled out for premium membership, just to have the option to many any decision I like when I feel the time is right. After reading everyone's input I still (for now) feel like the mainland would be my initial choice, just because I like the thought of having more control. I have already found at least one location which seemed quite suitable on the mainland, so I suspect finding a suitable location by being patient is viable. After all, canceling my premium account and moving to an estate location is always possible.

As for the prim limits... 117 prims is not that much, I know. On the other hand a well designed vendor will let you expose a great deal of products / prim, compared to the more straightforward 1 prim / product poster.

I'm confident that prim limits won't be my primary problem, as some already stated I need to take into account marketing costs. One good thing about the mainland and a premium account is a steady flow of a small amount of extra cash, which in turn could be used for marketing. I've seen some mall locations for as little as 50 L$ a week, so with 300 coming in a mainland store and a small mall outlet would still be "free".

We'll see how it goes down... I'll try to remember to bounce this thread once I actually end up doing something.

Hi Desmond, on the subject of ownership one of the first things I noticed in SL was the concept of ownership, when you search for land private land comes up as cheapest because a lot of it is apparently L$1 and then you read the covenant.

At first I thought it was a complete misnomer but then I got into land and realised, that mainland is also leasehold land. If I don't keep up my tier payments, I'll lose it. The key with private land is finding a trustworthy landlord, despite our criticisms I suspect most of us wouldn't expect LL to take mainland off us for no particular valid reason but the estate vs mainland principle isn't as different as some people portray, it's all leasehold.

True. it's just that Mainland leases are given by LL, so that is supposed to instill confidence, I guess. And mainland leases have far fewer restrictions and no covenant.

I've heard some scary stories about private estates, and they usually boil down to a few categories.


1) Immature expectations.

Someone gets a sim and expects everyone to play their game or go away. Just like on the elementary school playground, this doesn't last long. Residents get fed up, sim owner takes ball and goes home. Generally everyone loses money and reputations are trashed.


2) Exhaustion.

Sim owner quickly discovers that dealing with two dozen residents nightly with the finesse of a fine french waiter is the *worst* possible way to make a couple hundred bucks a month. Yes, they really DO expect you to log in nightly... let me put it this way. If you are logging in 10 hours a week to make 200 bucks a month, that's a 4.65 USD an hour job. That's best case! More realistically, they log in 20 hours a week and make 150 bucks a month... that's roughly 1.75 an hour. Sim owner collapses in dispirited exhaustion after three months.


3) Social incompetency.

Everyone's doing pretty much fine, except then someone says something moronic in text, another person repeats it, and it's junior high school all over again. Suddenly logging in is about as fun as going to the dentist, and the odds of fairness with someone who just accused you of stealing your pretend-sister's brother-in-law's furry pet while they in turn obviously land-grabbed your Gorean grandma's kajira's love garden is just... impossible.


There may be true scammers out there, but I haven't heard of any that would go to soooo much trouble as to plan on using sim ownership to do it. That's a lot of exposure and risk for your average scammer.

Everyone's probably wondering - well Des, what about you? You just damned private estate ownership pretty badly...

Well, here's what works. This works for lots of people - certainly all the established folk.

- Tolerance for other people's vision. And lots of it. If you aren't a control freak, people do their own thing and it works out, so long as they aren't putting spinning For Sale signs up and starting ageplay casinos. Anyone putting residents into their picture-perfect princess castle like chesspieces is still playing Ken and Barbie... but with you. This can only lead to tears the moment someone doesn't get their nap.

- Don't be in it for the money. Yep, 100% serious. If the sim owner is "in it for the money"... well, that's what you mean to the sim owner. There are worse motives, but if someone has less than 10 sims and is 'in it for the money' a McDonald's job would reward them with far less work, and you mean about as much to them as a #4 supersized combo.

- Don't stir drama with residents, and don't *be* drama for residents. Shrug off the weird stuff. Easier to do if you've been in online worlds for several years, and have seen a bit first. New folk are continually shocked by acculturation - yes, the girl hitting on you is a man, yes, that tip jar was set out by a scammer not the DJ, yes, someone did make an alt just to mess with your head. If a sim's social life revolves around the owner-avatar and they are new... well, let's just say I warned ya.