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Should Linden Lab allow LandBots? |
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Reverend Herzog
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Posts: 111
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03-26-2007 07:37
Instead of dancing around, why not ask the question directly? Should LandBots be allowed?
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Joy Iddinja
Registered User
Join date: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 344
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03-26-2007 08:06
I chose to ban Landbots but keep the system because you didn't explain what kind of revampment you were discussing. I think more options should have been included on the poll. revampment could mean alot of things.
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Reverend Herzog
Registered User
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Posts: 111
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03-26-2007 08:08
The thought crossed my mind, but I was trying to focus on the title of the thread, Should Linden Lab allow LandBots or not? By the third option I meant the typical LL "throw the baby out with the bathwater" response to issues a la First Land.
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
![]() Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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03-26-2007 08:22
I voted for revamping. I think LL should add in some kind of control, like the tools that prevent spam posts on blogs, a visual confirmation with swirly letters. I don't mind bots finding land, but a human should always make the actual purchase.
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Stylee Streeter
I am not an adfarmer ok!!
Join date: 5 Feb 2007
Posts: 190
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03-26-2007 08:30
i think they should be alowed. as i said, it helps get rid of all the crap at the top of the search page that no one would buy otherwise.
if anything they should help everyone create there own bots ![]() |
Marcus Khorana
Vote 1 Landbot
![]() Join date: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 91
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03-26-2007 08:31
Landbots for the win!
marcus |
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
![]() Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
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03-26-2007 10:17
Landbots for the win! marcus For a coder, you fail to comprehend the integers, which clearly denote, landbots should not be allowed. No workarounds or hacks for this result. _____________________
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Race Kidd
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 6
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03-26-2007 11:13
As if LL gives a flying fart what we think...
But hey, at least we get to enjoy spinning our wheels! Wheeeeeeeee! :-/ |
Aminom Marvin
Registered User
Join date: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 520
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03-26-2007 11:57
I don't hate the users of landbots. They are simply using means which are allowed by LL to maximize their profit. They have little to no effect on land prices because they go after land priced far cheaper than the current market prices. The problem is the method by which LL sells land.
Most users are not aware of the way the low-priced land game was played prior to the recent madness. You'd have non-bot land dealers searching over and over until the exact moment a piece of cheap land popped up. Then a second or two later, 5-10 land dealers would teleport to the spot and try to grab the plot. This was all done manually. So, although this was great fun and akin to a race, the race was largely limited to a small number of land dealers. Of course because there is quite a bit of money involved, this search race was not entirely equal. Some people have faster computers, better connections, and closer physical proximity to the LL servers. Then came OS clients designed for land dealing; some manual non-bot clients that use a direct stream instead of a cashe and trim down the steps needed to purchase, and some fully automated clients. So, you have a range of tools and methods from fully automated to fully "vanilla" that such land dealers use to gain an advantage. So, if bots were banned tomorrow, it would be back to another arms race using allowed means. This does nothing for the consumer, though at least it would not hoarde all the money to one or two individuals, and instead to land dealers in general. The solution must be broader than banning bots, throttling search, etc. The land search needs an overhaul. Some possibilities include a completely new auctioning system where smaller parcels are auctioned in a greater number, direct purchase from LL, or a pseudo-auction system for residents selling land (the auctions could even be very short). |
Reverend Herzog
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Posts: 111
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03-26-2007 12:49
I don't hate the users of landbots. They are simply using means which are allowed by LL to maximize their profit. They have little to no effect on land prices because they go after land priced far cheaper than the current market prices. The problem is the method by which LL sells land. It depends on how you define "far cheaper." Landbot Hax typically grabs everything priced .2 or lower than the current market prices. So if L$10.3 per m2 is the market floor, it's after everything listed 10.1 or lower. To me, that's not "far cheaper." Of course because there is quite a bit of money involved, this search race was not entirely equal. Some people have faster computers, better connections, and closer physical proximity to the LL servers. Then came OS clients designed for land dealing; some manual non-bot clients that use a direct stream instead of a cashe and trim down the steps needed to purchase, and some fully automated clients. So, you have a range of tools and methods from fully automated to fully "vanilla" that such land dealers use to gain an advantage. That's is always going to be the case. However, such souped-up manual clients are still beatable, unlike a landbot, and a resident using such a client won't be on 24/7 like your typical landbot is. _____________________
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Joy Iddinja
Registered User
Join date: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 344
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03-26-2007 15:08
This is the part I have a problem with. The race, as you call it, was open to anyone with a 512 lot and a dream. If you were willing to put in the time and effort and had minimal mathematics skills and at least average intelligence, the race was open to anyone. My first deal involved a 512, bought at 2900, sold at 3250. I lost almost as much as I made the first 3 weeks. I put in the time and learned how to structure my search for best effect, how to tell other realtors ads from nonrealtors ads, how to figure out the market price and that setting my land 50-100 linden below was the best strategy for me.
No, you couldn't just log on and take a choice waterfront lot like apples off an apple tree, but if you put even a day or two into a search, you could get a nice lot, even if you weren't a professional realtor. Yes, realtors would come in very soon after land was listed, so you did have to work for it, but at that point, if you put in a few hours or if you had specific land in mind, a week or so, you could get a decent rate. Now, all land below market is taken before it is even visible on land listings. There are no deals. And yes, the fun is gone too. This was all done manually. So, although this was great fun and akin to a race, the race was largely limited to a small number of land dealers. |
Winter Phoenix
Voyager of Experiences
Join date: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 683
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exterminate the bots with extreme prejudice
03-26-2007 19:24
If somebody wants to sit around for hours on end tapping the search button every five seconds, then let em swoop in for a deal. I dont have the patience or the fingers for it. Sounds like a case of impending carpal tunnel syndrome. This isnt a relaxing past time for them, this is a low paying, mundane j-o-b which requires no creative skills. Maybe it beats working as a shelf stocker at Walmart. Ive no issues with them, unless of course they are those unscrupulous scumbags flying around preying on the poor schmucks who indavertantly place their land for sale at the wrong low price. The bots give an unfair advantage without the pain and suffering. And someone who can design such a bot can get a better job than Wallmart. Snuff the bots, they are for lazy opportunists.
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~GIVEN FREE REIGN THE SYSTEM WILL TELL YOU,
WHAT TO DO, WHEN AND HOW TO DO IT, WHAT YOU CAN READ, VIEW, OR LISTEN TO, WHAT YOU CAN SAY, WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH YOUR OWN BODY, AND SUCK ALL YOUR MONEY OUT OF YOUR POCKET WHILE IT DOES THIS! QUESTION AUTHORITY!~ W.P |
Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
![]() Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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03-26-2007 19:35
(argh, how many land bot threads do we need? !)
I'm neither for nor against landbots. I dislike the fact that some people use them to spam the SL servers with queries... and then profit off of the poor selling judgement of 'normal' residents. I like the fact that if I want to sell land reasonably quickly I can knock a few L$ per sqm off and know that it will be picked up by a bot in moments rather than mucking about with trying to make it all attractive and pretty and hoping that a human buyer might see it soon. It goes both ways. There is one sure way to choke land bot users though: List a "Suggested Selling Price" next to the field where users enter the parcel price. Make it the avg L$ per sqm times the number of square meters in the parcel. This way inexperienced sellers are less likely to ask for less than they deserve. Those that do are obviously desperate to sell immediately... fine, let the land bot 'brokers' take their cut of the proceeds for that. I don't care. But, if nothing else, they should have to exert some effort for the service they're providing. If that means a swirly letter confirmation print, fine. Let'm duke it out. Personally, I'm tired of land being treated as a sticker-priced retail item. I would *VASTLY* prefer an in-world supported escrow system that I could trust.... like nearly every other massively multiplayer environment in the world seems to have. Grump grump. I would buy cookies for everyone at LL if they even came halfway close to implementing the in-world business model that Eve-Online.com supports. Contracts, escrow, simple trades, heck, even insurance! ![]() Weedy- Integers are irrelevant. SL isn't a democracy. (now, can we stop using Resident Answers as a general forum, please?! ![]() |
SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
![]() Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
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03-26-2007 19:44
(now, can we stop using Resident Answers as a general forum, please?! ![]() Oh man, that's rich. ![]() _____________________
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan - |
Strife Onizuka
Moonchild
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Posts: 5,887
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03-26-2007 19:49
This forum isn't for general discussion; there are many Resident Sites where this discussion is appropriate — Resident Answers is for Resident-to-Resident help.
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Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river. - Cyril Connolly Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence. - James Nachtwey |
Strife Onizuka
Moonchild
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Posts: 5,887
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03-26-2007 20:16
*re-opens*
I'm going to keep an eye on this. _____________________
Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river. - Cyril Connolly Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence. - James Nachtwey |
Reverend Herzog
Registered User
![]() Join date: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 111
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03-27-2007 08:51
Thanks for reopening it, Strife. Hopefully we all, myself included, can conduct a civil discussion. I'll be the first to admit I'm a hothead.
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Pegasus Alva
Registered User
Join date: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 30
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03-27-2007 08:53
This forum isn't for general discussion; there are many Resident Sites where this discussion is appropriate — Resident Answers is for Resident-to-Resident help. ![]() Wow, A) the thread wasn't actually closed it seems and B) Strife, as long as LL has any sort of forum there's no point in going to third party sites as they will never get the amount of traffic needed to really make them viable compared to this and please tell your linden masters that they should take a page from Blizzard and hire people to keep up with the boards and have an official presence there rather than shutting them down one by one and sending their lackeys to prevent any speech whatsoever that doesn't fit with their PR view... and yes I know it's a broad statement but I do consider the locking of threads a PR move as the number of critical threads to positive threads closed is disproportionate even taking account the fact that there are due to LL's blundering more critical threads then positive threads. |
Pegasus Alva
Registered User
Join date: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 30
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03-27-2007 08:54
This forum isn't for general discussion; there are many Resident Sites where this discussion is appropriate — Resident Answers is for Resident-to-Resident help. ![]() By your edit comment am I to assume that this thread was unlocked again strife? |
Reverend Herzog
Registered User
![]() Join date: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 111
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03-27-2007 14:31
I find it interesting how this poll is turning out. There's an almost equal split between those who want merely to do away with landbots and those who want to revamp the land buying system entirely. I've heard suggestions here and in other areas about changing land buying to an auction system, making it a system where the seller has to verify the sale, moving it all out of world and to a website ... any other thoughts?
I remember fondly the olden, pre-land sales search days when you had to physically fly from sim to sim in order to look for land for sale. You could combine exploring and land hunting. It was a lot like cruising a neighborhood you like in first life and looking to see if there were any houses for sale there ... _____________________
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Winter Phoenix
Voyager of Experiences
Join date: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 683
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Interesting split perhaps...
03-27-2007 17:44
But notice that nobody wants the bots. I like the auction concept.
_____________________
~GIVEN FREE REIGN THE SYSTEM WILL TELL YOU,
WHAT TO DO, WHEN AND HOW TO DO IT, WHAT YOU CAN READ, VIEW, OR LISTEN TO, WHAT YOU CAN SAY, WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH YOUR OWN BODY, AND SUCK ALL YOUR MONEY OUT OF YOUR POCKET WHILE IT DOES THIS! QUESTION AUTHORITY!~ W.P |
Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
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03-27-2007 21:12
The folks who want the bots, obviously, are the folks who use the bots. If there wasn't an established advantage in doing so, they wouldn't be doing it.
I have much respect for Elanthius, for being candid about that whole deal. I still dislike the practice of using bots. And the auctions are part of the problem. If Linden Lab were at all interested in mitigating the average price of land, they wouldn't be selling out large chunks of it to the highest bidder. It's counter to the cause. In this sense, Linden Lab are simply contributing to the relatively high cost of land, by doing what the other land dealers are doing - pushing the envelope of what the market will bear. Soon enough, the entire land business will be strung up by its ears, if Mitch Kapor is to be believed, and as the board chair, I'd imagine he is. Perhaps it's time for Linden Lab to take the lead here.. and instead of applying an academic analysis to all these various "landbot" threads, actually make the virtual rubber meet the virtual road, and cap the price of land grid wide. Cap it high for now, and gradually lower it so that it's not a shock to anyone who was dumb enough to quit their real life jobs to get into this risky business in the first place. Land ownership is the basis for everything else this "platform" is supposed to be for. Its affordability should be a core concern for the policy makers at Linden Lab, and when folks have to hand over more than $65 real cash for a decent chunk of it, there's a disconnect between what this platform is intended for, and what it is allowed to be used for. Not everyone has as much disposable income as is necessary to afford land in this climate. They are at a severe disadvantage, currently. zk |
tristan Eliot
Say What?!
Join date: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 494
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03-28-2007 05:57
In the beginning i did not support the use of landbots. I did give my support to ending automated land buying in the beginning. All 10 of my votes in fact. But then I saw the side I was supporting was not much different in morals or principal. It put me in the position of having to choose the lesser of 2 evils and I rather there be none. I'm not sure how the land game in SL can be fixed to be fair to all including the buyer honestly. Maybe a hybrid auction system will work but I doubt it. That will just send land prices soaring because everyone will then want maximum profit from their land. This is just a mess and the mess was created by the people who really control the market. LL.
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
![]() Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
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03-28-2007 07:22
Land Barony was in SL from day one. Bots entered SL four years later.
SL was fine without bots. You don't rob from Peter to pay Paul. It's not right. _____________________
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
![]() Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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03-28-2007 10:36
Land Barony was in SL from day one. Bots entered SL four years later. SL was fine without bots. You don't rob from Peter to pay Paul. It's not right. It's a Pandora's Box issue. Like nukes. There is no undoing this now, there is only making it more difficult. I agree that landbot users shouldn't have it so easy to profit. As we lack the ability to do so, I feel it is LL's responsibility to level the playing field between human and non-human land buyers and sellers. Of course, as Zaphod mentions, it could just solve itself when the opensim issue takes off. None-the-less... I am very pro-bot. The idea of avatars interacting in world, like any other human, is a huge thing. 15 years ago, text muds had an invasion of chat-bot like constructs... that were much more than just "Eliza" parrots, they explored, they learned, they provided services in a 24/7 community that "only-online-some-of-the-time" humans could not. Yes there is most definitely a downside to bots, (see: Agent Hell(pdf) for more on that side). But the upside is very interesting and unexpected advances in AI. It's hard for synthetic personalities to function in RL... they're born without our five senses or the years of mastery over them that we get as children. But online... in a medium such as a text mud, or SecondLife, that RL limitation is less of a factor. Unfortunately... humans, being the judgmental and cruel species that we are... seem to have a very profound habit of brutalizing bots. "They don't feel pain like real people do." Anyway, I'm digressing, and rambling. Where's my coffee? |