Authentic historical sims, time travelers unite!

No, they certainly shouldn't be beheaded, unless they're aristocrats, that is. Commoners should be hanged (hung?), as I recall, unless they're heretics or poisoners, in which case they should be burned. Oh, and traitors and Jesuits get hung (or, as some grammarians would have it, hanged), drawn and quartered, of course.

I cannot believe that a discussion about historically accurate sims has diverged into a discussion of obscure disturbing sex practices in and out of SL.

Is it possible, Scylla, that your political concerns sometimes warp your outlook a bit? I've been in SL since 2006, spent some time exploring BDSM etc.., and manage to participate in a discussion about historical sims without bringing dolcette into it. In fact, I've never encountered that particular practice in SL, though as you say, it as well as double dutch competitions, agility training for dogs, and many many other rather obscure human endeavors, are all in SL.

I meant "some poor citizen" not in the sense that the characters being executed are poor serfs... But in the sense that anyone IMHO facing execution is a "poor citizen" whether they be a duke or a serf.

I'm not pulling this stuff out of the air, either.

Like I said, there are probably both. I haven't done a census, but from what I have observed, I think the OTT crowd outnumbers the orthdox Dolcettites by a wide margin.

/me shrugs

The origin of this part of the discussion was the suggestion, made earlier in this thread and the other one started by Jo, that it might be worthwhile or legit to include provisions for RPing Jack the Ripper in a Whitechapel sim. I raised Dolcet only as a response to the assertion that graphically violent animations of the sort that would be required to RP the Whitechapel Murders were not possible in SL. They are.

You can trace the discussion in this thread back and make you own determinations about whether it is I, or Ciaran, who is responsible for the apparent derail. My original point, which is that providing for the RP of Jack the Ripper not merely adds nothing to the historical validity of a Whitechapel sim, but actually detracts from it, stands.

No, I am sure you are not making this up, and I didn't mean to suggest that you were.

I am sure there are probably both. Without a census, it is impossible to know which "type" predominates; my own exposure has largely been to "orthodox" Dolcet types. It's not really relevant to this particular discussion in any case.

I may be able to help clear this up. In roleplay I can be graphic. my current characters are vastle different- ones a nice one, with a submissive and masochistic streak, the other ones an immoral woman who would sacrifice her grandmother for power, and regularly animates the dead.

Does graphic, including rape, happen in rp? Sure, I've been the rapist and the victim. But the history in rp sims is just that- a backdrop. Its not what we are celebrating there. You can celebrate whitechapel, without rp, then turn around and use it as a backdrop for rp (I've been in one) - vastly different. If youre shy of the violence, go to purely historical. Same thing if there for history..we tend to muddle it in rp even if we have no supernatural etc.

Thanks Nicole.

This is what I have been getting at, really. Putting in pose balls for "Kill the Victorian Prostitute" RP isn't going to contribute to, or even connect with, the historical context being presented by the sim.

No it's cheating because comparing a whodunnit to a fetish that is about dismemberment is going wide of the mark. Jack The Ripper roleplay doesn't have to mean someone going around dismembering people or putting "slit throat" poseballs in place, or having violent rape animations, none of that is needed. Surely you can see this?



There's no need for mutilation animations, none at all. That's the point I'm making.

Don't do it, sometimes it's better to be blissfully unaware.

What would the roleplay involve? The police going round examining crime scenes and questioning people and the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee patrolling the area, but what else?

Well, I can sort of see it now . . . clearly we were talking at cross purposes.

But I'd echo what Innula says: how do you imagine this working then? And given that in the case of the Whitechapel Murders anyway, we know next to nothing about who really "did it," how would a "whodunnit" have any historical merit?

Well you could have cloaked figures in foggy lanes whom with the power of teleport magically disappear. You could have profiles of leading suspects yadda yadda yadda. There are umpteen works of guesswork to draw from.

We're talking over a hundred years ago, any sort of sim is going to require a degree of artistic license.

Who suggested this be done? I haven't seen anyone suggest this be done.

Women got murdered there a lot, actually. So did all sorts of other folks. It's a bit like the Five Corners slum in America was.

I'm not sure about that...it doesn't sound so far off from the people who seem to adore being Gorean slaves. Some people find roleplaying service roles, relaxing.

I think it would need a core group of hearty volunteers or paid staff, though, to get off the ground in the beginning at the very least. It's difficult to find really gung-ho volunteers who are willing to adapt somewhat to the creator's vision though. So paid it might need to be (even then, devoted people are not easy to find.)

I would not recommend bots, since people can smell an unpopulated/stale sim a mile away.

I think honestly that money is the main reason a lot of these places do not exist. That, and, as you said, when people build their dream sim it tends to be of the luxurious variety. Also, creating a very detailed historical or roleplay sim requires almost a full-time work week at least at first, in time and energy. Moreover, in funds. A lot of people cannot supply all three - and those who can, do not always necessarily have the creativity and attention to detail. Bringing a slice of history compellingly to life requires talents in writing, art, and directing, in my opinion.

A lot of sims just are pretty to look at but have no real life or detail going on inside them.

/me should probably refrain from mentioning, in the context of RP based on Victorian London and Jack the Ripper, the (very good) pastiche, Anno Dracula by Kim Newman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Dracula_(novel)

An attempt to make an 'accurate' Five Corners slum might be interesting. (Five Corners is the area portrayed in "Gangs of New York" as well as the film "Five Corners" a modern location for that slum.)

Five Corners was said to be so destitute and lawless, even Dickens was appalled.

Why would that make a difference? If a sim is intended to make visitors feel that they are in that era/setting, a few authentic-looking bots around the place could only enhance it. Would knowing that the 'authentic' people are bots matter? I doubt it.

My castle isn't very good, and nothing like what is being discussed here, but it uses 4 bots that enhance it as a castle, and I've had some very nice compliments for it. A few weeks ago, someone posted trying to find the place where the bot policeman interacted with them.

I think that bots that enhance a place are very good and very acceptable. Also they don't cost money, which the creator of such a sim would need to consider, and they are guaranteed to show up for work and not disappear to do something else.

Personally, I'd prefer to visit a Whitechapel that has a few authentic people in it, even if they are bots, than an empty Whitechapel. I'd also prefer to visit a western town that had a few authentic-looking cowboy types in it, maybe even a gunfight, than an empty western town. It wouldn't matter to me if they were bots.

On a meta level, there's something I see, so, so, so, so very often...



"Let's do a new place! It's going to be so much better than what has come before!"

"Wow this is exciting, shiny and new! We barely got started and don't have much to show, but, wow!"

"Hey, this is hard, and not a little bit expensive. But, I'm determined!"

"My top two supporters said something *really* nasty to me, and the third now wants to do a furry goth area. Wtf? We have a plan!!! My satisfaction will come, bittersweet but with the bliss of near~perfection."

"Okay, the scripter quit. But we can get a new one."

"The core of True Visionaries is moving forward, and the detractors have left. That's fine. We'll make it anyway."

"Oh crap, I just got an assignment at work that will keep me solid busy for three months. No problem." *teeth grit with determination*

"Diva Dramababe stole my idea!!! And... she's doing it so tackily, but... gasp... she's *ahead* of me, and... oh look, there are all those fickle "supporters" I threw out, Over There Now."

* * * * *

At this point, it goes one of two ways.

Either

a) You make your best showing of it, and have a newfound respect for *anyone* that has done a project in Second Life, and you take your place among them as equals, more times than not,

or,

b) you get fed up yourself, toss it in and move on, letting other people do the work and just sort of cherrypicking the fun wherever New and Shiny happen to appear for a few days.

* * * * *

Dreams are grand, and I'm not saying it's impossible ~ but what we are looking at is what a Disney engineer friend of mine called the difference between fun, and entertainment.

Want to entertain someone for 90 minutes, with compelling storylines and appropriate settings, in a vision you direct yourself? Better have anywhere from 1 to 100 million dollars. Entertainment is ridiculously, ridiculously expensive.

On the other hand, if you want people to have fun, all you have to do is *unlock* that fun. Sure, you might have Dickensian drama next to Beatrix Potterish furries, but all in all, you'll have *fun* ~ and fun is dirt cheap.

Entertainment is the expensive toy ~ fun is the box it came in.

There's a few dirty tricks to turn fun into entertainment ~ and that is to create a community narrative, one's own history, something that happens to be entertaining to others, while being inherently fun for its participants. This is almost impossible under a directed vision ~ the moment it is tightly directed, it becomes work. But for an unrestrained experience, it's quite possible.

I would *love* for someone to prove me wrong on all this ~ in fact, please do. The moment someone does, we'll all be rich directors, because people pay a *fortune* for good entertainment.

I'm not anti-bot Phil.

I think people prefer sims with real live people in them.

But if done correctly, and I mean really, really well...then it's possible a bot could be part of an immersive entertainment experience. But not the standard, random chat bot - that can't take the place of a live person. And not for role play, certainly.

I think a different thing could be better than a bot but it would be part of a script.

to Desmond...and to whomever...

Would entertainment be more expensive than buying all kinds of geegaws as I currently do? Not if I knew how to do it myself or had good volunteers who were on board. I know how it would be done, though.

Most entertainment is in the *ideas.* That's how I see it. Not all ideas cost a lot to implement.

I think I'd rebuild Whitechapel just the way I build 1920s Berlin.
I has all the things discussed and is doing rather well since july, doing better every month.
Sims like these only work when they have a supporting community.
People need to really love hanging out there, living there.
Once you make a sim that is what people are looking for, they will come, stay and support.

I too have a few bots, I see them as part of setting the scene.
We have a beggar in WW1 uniform, a veteran begging and telling people his story.
We have a drunk, a homeless person sleeping in a box, a lady playing a street organ, stuff like that.
They add something to the place, people seem to like them.

But we have staff too, all people who generally also live in 1920s Berlin, who work for tips, nothing more.
They work behind the bar, dance for tips (very authentic), police the streets, etc.

Most important is of course the entertainment, we have artists on stage in the club and the theatre, we have 1920s/early 1930s movies in the cinema and Open Stage where anyone can perform for tips.
Not to mention the treasure hunts, the ice skating, etc.

We entertain visitors EVERY day during Happy Hour at the club when locals and guests come over to listen to 1920s music, chat, drink and dance.
For many its become a regular part of their routine.

MY Victorian Whitechapel would be like my 1920s Berlin, I'd build the setting, recreate the atmosphere, the feeling and the look of the era and then let the people who want to live and work there decide on how daily life is going to be.
Does someone want to be Jack the Ripper?
Only if the victim agrees they can act this out in IM's because as soon as someone overhears them the police will be called.
Leave it up to the people, I would not add certain poseballs to the sim besides the one that were part of daily life.
And although it was a violent era and area, being murdered by a serial killer was not part of daily life for most people.

Good post, Jo!

I've seen Phil's castle bots since last posting and they are very cool.

I've seen Jo's bots too, I liked them also.

Sort of like being invisible amidst theater.