Second Life Forums Archive - Do as we say, Not as we say?

Lota Lyon

Registered User

Join date: 5 Oct 2006

Posts: 245

06-03-2007 12:16

i second that motion!!!

From: Sweet Primrose

Very good post, Collette. I'd like to hear LL explain itself.

Hugsy Penguin

Sky Junkie

Join date: 20 Jun 2005

Posts: 851

06-03-2007 14:39

I'll respond to this first:

From: Colette Meiji

Im of the opinion Dan choose his words poorly, and he meant something stronger than the "Broadly Offensive" used to deliniate the Mature requirement.

You answered your own post right here. The "broadly offensive" in the blog post is obviously different than that in the community standards. It was a poor choice to reuse the same phrase.

From: Colette Meiji

If anyone can find the portion of the Community standards that actually Supports Dan Linden's Statement that No Broadly Offensive material is allowed in Second Life, Please enlighten me.

I don't see it in the community standards. I do find in the terms of service:

From: Terms of Service

CONDUCT BY USERS OF SECOND LIFE

4.1 You agree to abide by certain rules of conduct, including the Community Standards and other rules prohibiting illegal and other practices that Linden Lab deems harmful.

...

In addition to abiding at all times by the Community Standards, you agree that you shall not:

...

(iii) take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content that violates any law or regulation;

(iv) take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content as determined by Linden Lab at its sole discretion that is harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, causes tort, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;

...

From: Colette Meiji

Is Broadly offensive allowed?

The blog's version of broadly offensive is not allowed. The community standards version is allowed on mature land.

From: Colette Meiji

If thats not what they intended, when can we expect either Dan's Blog post to be ammended?

Or - the Community Standards rewritten?

I certainly hope so.

_____________________

--
Hugsy Penguin

Colette Meiji

Registered User

Join date: 25 Mar 2005

Posts: 15,556

06-04-2007 10:59

From: Hugsy Penguin

You answered your own post right here. The "broadly offensive" in the blog post is obviously different than that in the community standards. It was a poor choice to reuse the same phrase.

The real concern is that they are not, and it halmarks a upcomming change to the community standards to reflect the blog post.

Wilhelm Neumann

Runs with Crayons

Join date: 20 Apr 2006

Posts: 2,204

06-04-2007 11:07

I try not to think about conflicting information/actions it hurts my head. Also and I think I said this before and to a couple of friends who were holding up TOS as a defense when it comes to these "contracts" and TOS there are certain things you can waive and certain things you cannot waive.

Most TOS dont stand up in a legal battle when there is a law the supercedes them. This includes things like loss of "revenue" and "liability" etc among other things. YOu will find you can't waive these things in a TOS no matter how hard you try. When it comes to the Pr0N etc no matter how hard LL tries not to be involved and says certain things in their TOS the fact remains that the law will always exist and will always over ride any TOS out there.

So the bottom line is do what's right according to the law its safer hehe. If you live in a country where certain things are illegal that is what will govern not the TOS. About the only thing that can stand is unique stuff to the scenario like IP rights which according to most contracts are in the handso f the company and not awarded to the creators as they are here etc.

Just dont get fooled by TOS that might be okay one day and not okay the next day. The fact of the matter is that the TOS will always have to bend to fit the law/rule that they are talking about. If they attempt to supercede the law if anything happens the TOS gets filed in the circular filing can bye the judge

Its just the way life works otherwise laws would be useless

The moral of the story is follow the law

Ace Albion

Registered User

Join date: 21 Oct 2005

Posts: 866

06-05-2007 03:39

Either Daniel Linden wasn't aware of Second Life's actual Terms of Service, or he's a liar.

Let's hope it was simple ignorance, eh?

_____________________

Ace's Spaces! at Deco (147, 148, 24)
ace.5pointstudio.com

Sling Trebuchet

Deleted User

Join date: 20 Jan 2007

Posts: 4,548

06-05-2007 04:32

From: Cocoanut Koala

Oh, they have a model alright.

It's called the "Tao of Linden," and that's the problem.

http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/07/25/the-tao-of-linden/#more-174

coco

From that reference:-
" Be Transparent and Open There are many ways to
emphasize responsibility, accountability, communication and trust. We
believe that the one key principle that best supports all of these
values is transparency. As much as possible, tell everyone what you are
doing. This transparency makes us responsible to our peers, makes us
accountable to our own statements, and replaces the need for management
with individual responsibility. Over time, it creates and reinforces
trust. Be willing to share ideas before you feel they are ‘baked’.
Report on your own progress frequently and to everyone."

Transparancy - the one key principle.

We must accept that in a commercial situation "as much as possible" has more limits than would internal activity, particularly in the area of competitive features, but come along now..... there isn't a glimmer of that spirit getting out.

Nature abhors a vacuum. If LL didn't create information vacuums, we'd have no need to fill them with forum postings.
It appears that Monday was some sort of holiday in SF? Nobody working there? Or maybe a team of PR consultants is working on how to unhappen the unhappy blog posting?

"Be willing to share ideas before you feel they are ‘baked’." Oh yes!
Especially, share half-baked ideas - and early!

Colette Meiji

Registered User

Join date: 25 Mar 2005

Posts: 15,556

06-05-2007 04:40

From: Ace Albion

Either Daniel Linden wasn't aware of Second Life's actual Terms of Service, or he's a liar.

Let's hope it was simple ignorance, eh?

or he changed the rules / CS without having the nerve to tell us all.

Yeah - sad, when ignorance is the BEST alternative

Colette Meiji

Registered User

Join date: 25 Mar 2005

Posts: 15,556

06-05-2007 04:40

From: Sling Trebuchet

From that reference:-
" Be Transparent and Open There are many ways to
emphasize responsibility, accountability, communication and trust. We
believe that the one key principle that best supports all of these
values is transparency. As much as possible, tell everyone what you are
doing. This transparency makes us responsible to our peers, makes us
accountable to our own statements, and replaces the need for management
with individual responsibility. Over time, it creates and reinforces
trust. Be willing to share ideas before you feel they are ‘baked’.
Report on your own progress frequently and to everyone."

Transparancy - the one key principle.

We must accept that in a commercial situation "as much as possible" has more limits than would internal activity, particularly in the area of competitive features, but come along now..... there isn't a glimmer of that spirit getting out.

Nature abhors a vacuum. If LL didn't create information vacuums, we'd have no need to fill them with forum postings.
It appears that Monday was some sort of holiday in SF? Nobody working there? Or maybe a team of PR consultants is working on how to unhappen the unhappy blog posting?

"Be willing to share ideas before you feel they are ‘baked’." Oh yes!
Especially, share half-baked ideas - and early!

Yep they are transparant all right

Clear.

Clear as Mud.

Karen Palen

That pushy American Broad

Join date: 26 Feb 2007

Posts: 140

06-05-2007 05:57

From: Plato Cochrane

Conflicting policies and customer service issues are symptomatic of a company that is undergoing very rapid expansion. LL strikes me as a small company that suddenly finds itself very large, and is realizing the way a small company manages itself doesn't work in a large coporation. To give LL credit, this is also a very new type of business, so they don't really have a model to follow either. I think things will eventually get better and that policies will be more consistent. For now, the fact that there are inconsistent statements like this provides a certain level of protection in a strange way--should these matters make it to court.

Actually in my experience it is more in line with an organization that is out of control and headed for a disaster!

Pie Psaltery

runs w/scissors

Join date: 13 Jan 2004

Posts: 987

06-05-2007 06:46

From: Ace Albion

Either Daniel Linden wasn't aware of Second Life's actual Terms of Service, or he's a liar.

Let's hope it was simple ignorance, eh?

Because being lead by liars into a safer SL for everyone, together, is going to take a LOT of ignorance.

_____________________

Colette Meiji

Registered User

Join date: 25 Mar 2005

Posts: 15,556

09-22-2007 23:29

Bumping this since it came up in discussion just now.

--------------
*reserves the right to Necropost on my own thread lol*

Adz Childs

Artificial Boy

Join date: 6 Apr 2006

Posts: 865

09-22-2007 23:47

Good call.. Thanks. I missed this one.

_____________________

http://slnamewatch.com — Second Life Last Name Tracking — Email Alerts — Famous People Lookup — http://adz.secondlifekid.com/ — Artificial Boy — Personal Blog

From: Tofu Linden

Hmm, there's nothing really helpful there, but thanks for pasting.

Tegg Bode

FrootLoop Roo Overlord

Join date: 12 Jan 2007

Posts: 5,707

09-23-2007 00:14

How are we going as far as narrowly offensive content?

_____________________

Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]

Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107)

Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107)

Chas Connolly

Registered User

Join date: 24 Jan 2007

Posts: 1,433

09-23-2007 03:24

They could have solved at least part of this semantic dilemma by simply saying content "which may be construed as broadly offensive" as opposed to simply content which IS "broadly offensive" must be confined to private land in a mature sim.

Broadly offensive according to whom?

Surely what each of us finds "broadly offensive" is about as varied as the SL population itself.

I'm off to lie down.

Colette Meiji

Registered User

Join date: 25 Mar 2005

Posts: 15,556

09-23-2007 08:28

From: Chas Connolly

They could have solved at least part of this semantic dilemma by simply saying content "which may be construed as broadly offensive" as opposed to simply content which IS "broadly offensive" must be confined to private land in a mature sim.

Broadly offensive according to whom?

Surely what each of us finds "broadly offensive" is about as varied as the SL population itself.

I'm off to lie down.

I think its a case of him being in love with his own term "Broadly Offensive" and thus recylcing it.

Basically in practice I think it works out like this:

"Obcene stuff should be only on Mature land. But some stuff thats Really Obscene is never tolerated in SL."

Considering the attitude presented towards the Community Standards in the long Video Interview I guess it makes sense he forgot the contradiction.

Zen Zeddmore

3dprinter Enthusiast

Join date: 31 Jul 2006

Posts: 604

09-23-2007 10:35

From: Markubis Brentano

Oh, for god's sake...will you just stop this frikkin witch hunt?

...? but that's exactly what LL is ASKING us to do... so what's YOUR gripe?

LOL thx for bumping, i missed this.

_____________________

A kilogram of programmable nanobots can lower the certainty of both death AND taxes.

Ciaran Laval

Mostly Harmless

Join date: 11 Mar 2007

Posts: 7,951

09-23-2007 10:41

Well to be fair to Daniel, now that he's no longer here, the bar of offensiveness seems to have been lowered.

Do as we say, Not as we say?
Lota Lyon Registered User Join date: 5 Oct 2006 Posts: 245	06-03-2007 12:16 i second that motion!!! From: Sweet Primrose Very good post, Collette. I'd like to hear LL explain itself.
Hugsy Penguin Sky Junkie Join date: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 851	06-03-2007 14:39 I'll respond to this first: From: Colette Meiji Im of the opinion Dan choose his words poorly, and he meant something stronger than the "Broadly Offensive" used to deliniate the Mature requirement. You answered your own post right here. The "broadly offensive" in the blog post is obviously different than that in the community standards. It was a poor choice to reuse the same phrase. From: Colette Meiji If anyone can find the portion of the Community standards that actually Supports Dan Linden's Statement that No Broadly Offensive material is allowed in Second Life, Please enlighten me. I don't see it in the community standards. I do find in the terms of service: From: Terms of Service CONDUCT BY USERS OF SECOND LIFE 4.1 You agree to abide by certain rules of conduct, including the Community Standards and other rules prohibiting illegal and other practices that Linden Lab deems harmful. ... In addition to abiding at all times by the Community Standards, you agree that you shall not: ... (iii) take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content that violates any law or regulation; (iv) take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content as determined by Linden Lab at its sole discretion that is harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, causes tort, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable; ... From: Colette Meiji Is Broadly offensive allowed? The blog's version of broadly offensive is not allowed. The community standards version is allowed on mature land. From: Colette Meiji If thats not what they intended, when can we expect either Dan's Blog post to be ammended? Or - the Community Standards rewritten? I certainly hope so. _____________________ -- Hugsy Penguin
Colette Meiji Registered User Join date: 25 Mar 2005 Posts: 15,556	06-04-2007 10:59 From: Hugsy Penguin You answered your own post right here. The "broadly offensive" in the blog post is obviously different than that in the community standards. It was a poor choice to reuse the same phrase. The real concern is that they are not, and it halmarks a upcomming change to the community standards to reflect the blog post.
Wilhelm Neumann Runs with Crayons Join date: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 2,204	06-04-2007 11:07 I try not to think about conflicting information/actions it hurts my head. Also and I think I said this before and to a couple of friends who were holding up TOS as a defense when it comes to these "contracts" and TOS there are certain things you can waive and certain things you cannot waive. Most TOS dont stand up in a legal battle when there is a law the supercedes them. This includes things like loss of "revenue" and "liability" etc among other things. YOu will find you can't waive these things in a TOS no matter how hard you try. When it comes to the Pr0N etc no matter how hard LL tries not to be involved and says certain things in their TOS the fact remains that the law will always exist and will always over ride any TOS out there. So the bottom line is do what's right according to the law its safer hehe. If you live in a country where certain things are illegal that is what will govern not the TOS. About the only thing that can stand is unique stuff to the scenario like IP rights which according to most contracts are in the handso f the company and not awarded to the creators as they are here etc. Just dont get fooled by TOS that might be okay one day and not okay the next day. The fact of the matter is that the TOS will always have to bend to fit the law/rule that they are talking about. If they attempt to supercede the law if anything happens the TOS gets filed in the circular filing can bye the judge Its just the way life works otherwise laws would be useless The moral of the story is follow the law
Ace Albion Registered User Join date: 21 Oct 2005 Posts: 866	06-05-2007 03:39 Either Daniel Linden wasn't aware of Second Life's actual Terms of Service, or he's a liar. Let's hope it was simple ignorance, eh? _____________________ Ace's Spaces! at Deco (147, 148, 24) ace.5pointstudio.com
Sling Trebuchet Deleted User Join date: 20 Jan 2007 Posts: 4,548	06-05-2007 04:32 From: Cocoanut Koala Oh, they have a model alright. It's called the "Tao of Linden," and that's the problem. http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/07/25/the-tao-of-linden/#more-174 coco From that reference:- " Be Transparent and Open There are many ways to emphasize responsibility, accountability, communication and trust. We believe that the one key principle that best supports all of these values is transparency. As much as possible, tell everyone what you are doing. This transparency makes us responsible to our peers, makes us accountable to our own statements, and replaces the need for management with individual responsibility. Over time, it creates and reinforces trust. Be willing to share ideas before you feel they are ‘baked’. Report on your own progress frequently and to everyone." Transparancy - the one key principle. We must accept that in a commercial situation "as much as possible" has more limits than would internal activity, particularly in the area of competitive features, but come along now..... there isn't a glimmer of that spirit getting out. Nature abhors a vacuum. If LL didn't create information vacuums, we'd have no need to fill them with forum postings. It appears that Monday was some sort of holiday in SF? Nobody working there? Or maybe a team of PR consultants is working on how to unhappen the unhappy blog posting? "Be willing to share ideas before you feel they are ‘baked’." Oh yes! Especially, share half-baked ideas - and early!
Colette Meiji Registered User Join date: 25 Mar 2005 Posts: 15,556	06-05-2007 04:40 From: Ace Albion Either Daniel Linden wasn't aware of Second Life's actual Terms of Service, or he's a liar. Let's hope it was simple ignorance, eh? or he changed the rules / CS without having the nerve to tell us all. Yeah - sad, when ignorance is the BEST alternative
Colette Meiji Registered User Join date: 25 Mar 2005 Posts: 15,556	06-05-2007 04:40 From: Sling Trebuchet From that reference:- " Be Transparent and Open There are many ways to emphasize responsibility, accountability, communication and trust. We believe that the one key principle that best supports all of these values is transparency. As much as possible, tell everyone what you are doing. This transparency makes us responsible to our peers, makes us accountable to our own statements, and replaces the need for management with individual responsibility. Over time, it creates and reinforces trust. Be willing to share ideas before you feel they are ‘baked’. Report on your own progress frequently and to everyone." Transparancy - the one key principle. We must accept that in a commercial situation "as much as possible" has more limits than would internal activity, particularly in the area of competitive features, but come along now..... there isn't a glimmer of that spirit getting out. Nature abhors a vacuum. If LL didn't create information vacuums, we'd have no need to fill them with forum postings. It appears that Monday was some sort of holiday in SF? Nobody working there? Or maybe a team of PR consultants is working on how to unhappen the unhappy blog posting? "Be willing to share ideas before you feel they are ‘baked’." Oh yes! Especially, share half-baked ideas - and early! Yep they are transparant all right Clear. Clear as Mud.
Karen Palen That pushy American Broad Join date: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 140	06-05-2007 05:57 From: Plato Cochrane Conflicting policies and customer service issues are symptomatic of a company that is undergoing very rapid expansion. LL strikes me as a small company that suddenly finds itself very large, and is realizing the way a small company manages itself doesn't work in a large coporation. To give LL credit, this is also a very new type of business, so they don't really have a model to follow either. I think things will eventually get better and that policies will be more consistent. For now, the fact that there are inconsistent statements like this provides a certain level of protection in a strange way--should these matters make it to court. Actually in my experience it is more in line with an organization that is out of control and headed for a disaster!
Pie Psaltery runs w/scissors Join date: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 987	06-05-2007 06:46 From: Ace Albion Either Daniel Linden wasn't aware of Second Life's actual Terms of Service, or he's a liar. Let's hope it was simple ignorance, eh? Because being lead by liars into a safer SL for everyone, together, is going to take a LOT of ignorance. _____________________
Colette Meiji Registered User Join date: 25 Mar 2005 Posts: 15,556	09-22-2007 23:29 Bumping this since it came up in discussion just now. -------------- reserves the right to Necropost on my own thread lol
Adz Childs Artificial Boy Join date: 6 Apr 2006 Posts: 865	09-22-2007 23:47 Good call.. Thanks. I missed this one. _____________________ http://slnamewatch.com — Second Life Last Name Tracking — Email Alerts — Famous People Lookup — http://adz.secondlifekid.com/ — Artificial Boy — Personal Blog From: Tofu Linden Hmm, there's nothing really helpful there, but thanks for pasting.
Tegg Bode FrootLoop Roo Overlord Join date: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 5,707	09-23-2007 00:14 How are we going as far as narrowly offensive content? _____________________ Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan] Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107) Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107)
Chas Connolly Registered User Join date: 24 Jan 2007 Posts: 1,433	09-23-2007 03:24 They could have solved at least part of this semantic dilemma by simply saying content "which may be construed as broadly offensive" as opposed to simply content which IS "broadly offensive" must be confined to private land in a mature sim. Broadly offensive according to whom? Surely what each of us finds "broadly offensive" is about as varied as the SL population itself. I'm off to lie down.
Colette Meiji Registered User Join date: 25 Mar 2005 Posts: 15,556	09-23-2007 08:28 From: Chas Connolly They could have solved at least part of this semantic dilemma by simply saying content "which may be construed as broadly offensive" as opposed to simply content which IS "broadly offensive" must be confined to private land in a mature sim. Broadly offensive according to whom? Surely what each of us finds "broadly offensive" is about as varied as the SL population itself. I'm off to lie down. I think its a case of him being in love with his own term "Broadly Offensive" and thus recylcing it. Basically in practice I think it works out like this: "Obcene stuff should be only on Mature land. But some stuff thats Really Obscene is never tolerated in SL." Considering the attitude presented towards the Community Standards in the long Video Interview I guess it makes sense he forgot the contradiction.
Zen Zeddmore 3dprinter Enthusiast Join date: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 604	09-23-2007 10:35 From: Markubis Brentano Oh, for god's sake...will you just stop this frikkin witch hunt? ...? but that's exactly what LL is ASKING us to do... so what's YOUR gripe? LOL thx for bumping, i missed this. _____________________ A kilogram of programmable nanobots can lower the certainty of both death AND taxes.
Ciaran Laval Mostly Harmless Join date: 11 Mar 2007 Posts: 7,951	09-23-2007 10:41 Well to be fair to Daniel, now that he's no longer here, the bar of offensiveness seems to have been lowered.

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