Copyright Infringement

Hello,

I need some help and advice on a certain issue that has been brought to my attention.

I make gorean silks and have only 2 stalls In-world in which i sell them.

It was brought to my attention quite rudely I might add, that there is another silk-maker in SL who sells a similar silk to my own. She is a popular silk maker on SL and has a very successful business, where as I have only two small stalls on two gorean sims, my business is small, I sell only 4 silk types as of yet.

She is threatening to put me out of business if i don't remove the silk in question. She tells me that it's a prim by prim copy of her silk, with the exact same size dimensions and everything. I have looked at both silks closely, even looked at the demensions. First off, the dimensions and size of all the prims on my silk and her silk are quite different, and the style is semi-similar. I will try and attach pictures. Please give me advice. She is is threatening copyright infringement. What can I do? I do not want to remove a silk that I took enormous ammounts of time on only to look guilty of copying her silk when I had this silk in my inventory since Late August or so and only recently went into business.

Please contact me IN-world if you wish to see pictures, as i have no idea how to do coding to attach pics. Sorry.

If you didn't copy anything from the other person (other than the idea, directly or indirectly, doesn't matter), then you have nothing to fret over. Sounds like this is just drama (by the other person). Let her/him rant and rave. Just keep a cool head and don't lose your temper. Point out how you made it from scratch, point out that each item is different (even if similar in appearance).

You can't copyright ideas, "I will make silk, therefore no one else can!". It's easy to threaten a copyright suit, it's another matter to actually do it. And yet another to actually have a legitimate basis for said suit.

how does she claim she will drive you out of business?

Through the Lindens?
Or rumor mongering and peer pressure.

The former your probably (near 100% sure) totally safe.

The second it wont likely matter if you copied them or not - if she slanders you no one will beleive you =/

All you can do is stand your ground and tell they you didn't copy off them. I am sorry that you have to go through this if you are really not at fault.

If you derived her silks from hers, then you should take yours off the market.

If not, then you should tell her in plain words that you did not, and that she is mistaken. Then ask yourself what you will do if she files legal claims against you. Will she be able to make a court believe that you derived yours from hers?

Or, what if she starts labeling you with strong words like "thief"? Will you be able to stand up to that sort of pressure? By the way, if she does harass you, file an abuse report.

It is possible, though unfortunate, that it might be easier to give in. Tell her she's wrong, but also change your silks. Then if she continues to harass you, file a harassment abuse report against her with the Lindens.

there is no way a SL prim copy case is going to court any time soon.

The worst thing that could happen is a DMCA order, and that would be extremely difficult for the complainer to follow through with,.

The Lindens wont do anything w/o a DMCA unless she somehow stole the silk using a permissions bug or a prim copyier. Which she didnt.

The biggest danger is - since the silk maker complainer is well known she presumably has influence in their gorean circle and can spread lies and rumors and basically be a bitch about the whole thing.

So true....

Would the copyright holder of Gorean silks in SL please stand up?
*waits*

Morwen.

I agree with the majority thus far, If you didn't intentionally copy the the other vendors products then you don't have anything to worry about. If this other vendor has threatened to put you out of business then that will be hard to achieve without them violating the TOS. I'd advise reading the TOS in case the other vendor violates it in the future so you can report them if need be. I would also advise trying to develop future products that are in no way similar to the offended vendor, if they have already got a thriving business then it would make sense for you to create items that are different in order create your own niche.

i would find an animation in world that makes me cup my hand over my crotch and say "copyright this!" and keep doing what you are doing.

peace

You can also protect yourself by establishing your proof to have on hand IF the other party does decide to take action.

If you have a set of her silks, you can open up one of the prims in edit and take a screenshot showing the numbers her prim is set to.... then do the same with one of your own prims and hold onto both photos for comparison. This way you'll have easy quick proof to provide that your prims and hers are not the same when someone comes to you about it.

With silks, there really is only so many variations, textures and designs can be very different, but the basic prim structure.... if you look around SL, they're all pretty much the same. I've seen silks all over that look similar to the ones I make, it's bound to happen with a product that is so limited in styles. The same is true of prim gowns, shoes, etc..... the textures will be different but the rest all only varies slightly for the most part.

what? you don't have to prove anything. the burden of proof is on them. you have been accused so don't say a word to anyone unless you are questioned by someone with authority. you have to look out for yourself, don't let anyone push you around. stand your ground. if you did not copy it, you hve nothing to prove.

not only that but no one "owns" prim dimensions.

if it were possible wed all owe the very first SL avatar royalties on the 1/2 meter plywood cube.

while copying somones numbers as opposed ot coming up you own is not a good thing - its not a punishable offense.

Becuase someone could easily come up with similair numbers on their own. They are prims not snowflakes.

Well now, while I agree with the overall gist here that there is nothing to worry about, you haven't violated anyone's copyrights by making a set of silks, I must disagree with this flippant dismissal. Just about any creative work can be reduced to a set of numbers if you deconstruct it enough. Let's extend your logic to, say, a digital painting:

"Hey, noone 'owns' RGB values. This picture is just a bunch of numbers defining colors on a grid."

Just because something is described by a set of numbers doesn't make it okay to copy. What matters is the level of creativity involved in coming up with those numbers, the idea encapsulated in the numbers.

On the prim -
I dont think its okay to copy but its impossible to prove it was copied

The distinction being you couldnt conceivasbly have taken that picture on your own.

If you as a photographer rent the same studio use the same back drop and hire the same model and come up with a picture nearly identical and could show with receipts how - you wouldnt be violating a copyright.

making a prim is an easier process than that thus more likely for similiar outcomes.

You can copyright a photgraph of a red apple - you cant copyright all photographs of red apples

The ironic thing is In my business i was the first to sell shapes Modify on any scale - and of course my numbers have been looked at and likely borrowed.

And I still think the numbers themself you do not own. You have a result which is yours but how can you know someone cant achieve similair? With Prims / shapes its simply too easy for that to happen.

And according to the OP - is what happened.

Here's a knowledgebase article by Ginsu Linden on the DMCA process: http://secondlife.com/knowledgebase/article.php?id=270 . l

I have to strongly disagree, sure there is only a limited number of prim shapes you can come by but i disagree that two persons could come to an identical object (especially after a certain level of complexity) without one copying another.

Yeah, but from the original post we got 2 different stances:

OP - silks are quite different when it comes to prims, style is semi-similar
Other: silks are identical

Of course we don't know who is true here, but it shouldn't be hard to tell, by making a close comparison of the items.

Anyway, I do shop a lot and it's not uncommon to see "similar" items made by different content creators. I would add that often designs are either copied or inspired from real word ones. So it's not unlikely that 2 different content makers will end up with a similar inworld design, sometimes.

Hello everybody,

I do not think that there is any reason for legal action on the part of the 'original' creator,
as she/he has no real proof of her 'patent' and/or 'intelectual property'.

However I advise the op strongly to be aware of the fact that 'you did not copy, so you
do not have to fear anything' is... well... wrong. Even the most obscure claim can be
brought to a court (the Lindens in this case) and there everything is bound to happen.
So sorry to rob you of your illusions, but if you have the means of proofing that you did
create the silks by yourself, take precautions.

I only can speak from RL, but the overall tactic is like this:
I want to buy Company 'A', but they do not want to sell or at least 'cooperate' with me, so
I go to my lawdepartement and tell them to file a lawsuit. This can range from 'Copyright
infirgement' or 'Patent infrigement' (which are the most common) to something else, but
similarily 'blurry'.
I may loose the case, certainly in some cases, but...well... as long as the suit is in progress
everybody will be aware of it and, in case of investors, will have nothing to do with the
company. They are forced to sell to me, sit it out (and pay the cost for the time) or 'partner'
with me.
This does sound harsh... well... it is, but it is also a fact. And 'we have nothing to fear, so
we can sit and do nothing' will be the worst thing one can do. The law is good and will be
on the side of the innocent... no... sad to say... bah

If I did scare you with this... I did not mean to. It is your choice, but I strongly advise you
to be prepared.

Bah... I still do not understand why people do things like this... someone sells things similar
to mine? Thief! I was there first... bah... what should I do then? Run through all SL and
see if someone did already design a necklace remotely similar to mine? Or maybe I should
create the 'Standard Plywood Cube', change some little thingies and then stand in a
sandbox all day and collect license fees... hmmm...

Bah... well... now I am a bit... bah..

So sorry for ranting

Regards,
Lillyann

If you apply the 'direct copy' senerio, as a maker of media equipment (amongst other things) am I infringing copyright to make a screen the same size as the next guy? Screen resolutions in game only vary between PAL, NSTC and HDTV, therefore the only real difference would be how much you stretch the screen and how you embelish it.

For the most part, apart from a texture/colour variant applied to a pair of trousers (pants) how else can you make it distinguishable from the next pair? There are only a certain level of permutations you can apply to any basic element to make it different, the chances are that anyone, even starting fresh, without either prior knowledge of other designs, would come up with something that would appear on the face of it, to be 'similar' if not almost identical.

Copyright was intended to prevent someone simply taking a direct copy of someones work and relabelling it as theirs. Fashion, music, movies, photography and art are very big business to state but a few, and fraunt with copy artists or so called copy artists. It would be impossible for anyone either within an industry, or a newcomer to an industry to research every permutation of existing items, to make sure they do not produce something that would be classed as a 'copy'.

For my money, sit tight, report any potential abuse and or peer pressure to the correct authorities, take screen shots of your goods, and settings in the Edit window including creation dates, burn this onto a CD and keep it closeby to produce as evidence to defend yourself, should it need be. As already stated, it is not you that has to prove copyright infringment, only to defend your creations should it become a legal or LL involvement.

<takes up stone hammer and continues making the first wheel> I'm gonna be rich!!!!

In all honesty, this is a question best posed to your lawyer, not the SL fora. There are a lot of good points being made in this thread, but there are also a lot of iffy ones--largely based on assumptions that the law is moral. In fact, the law is specific: Whoever creates a copyrightable/patentable/registerable object first holds the license. Whether or not subsequent creators of similar or exact duplicates of such an object used the original for inspiration or not is immaterial under DMCA or any copyright, trademark, or patent law applicable to LL, which does business in the United States (and California).

If you are seriously concerned about this issue, call your local bar association (you can find the number in the Yellow Pages) and ask for a recommendation for a lawyer versed in intellectual property rights who has a reduced fee for the first consultation. Otherwise, LL is likely to pull your product should the "original creator" (and I use quotation marks because I'm not convinced that person is), file a DMCA claim.

Note: I've filed DMCA claims where the other person claimed that they created their object independent of any knowledge of my own work. In each case, LL removed the offending object. It's very easy to claim "I didn't know," but unless you can prove that you didn't know, LL has no recourse but to default on the behalf of the "original creator." This may not be right--and it's probably frequently wrong--but given the law and LL's legal position, they will cover their own asses first. (And who can blame them for that?)

Kam

Would depend on the complexity - in many cases -

Prims you could - Prims , textures, etc. Would be much harder to come up with independently

Two tables with the same shape (and prims) - easy enough

Two tables with the same 3rd party textures - fairly easy

two tables with the same custom texture made by the original creator - no that wouldnt be possible.

A massively intricate 200 Prim hair style - that would be tough to dupilicate on your own.
Some of the prims in two different hair styles being identical - sure that could happen without copying.

Do people even realize how many 'similar' silks there are in sl? I mean, seriously, how many ways can you arrange small wisps of silk that cover as little as possible? Bras are all similar, they have cups, and straps and hold up the same body part. So, if person A makes a black bra, black panty and black wisps of silk covering as little as possible (again) and then person B does the same thing the two can be considered 'similar' but not copied.

All of this is dependant on the details of the silk. Is she claiming a copy of JUST the prims? A lot of silks in this game have the same or very very similar 'wisps of silk' that go from the waist to the ankles in a fashion that covers just the area above and between the legs. Or, is it a silk with a varity if such prims, and are they arranged around the waist the same.....etc etc. Then you have to look at the design of the top and bottom clothing peices (er, if there even are any).

All that ramble is simply put to say, there are only SO many ways you can arrange prims around a waist for silks, or the arms or neck for example. If silks were to be restricted to who came up with the combination of prims and arrangement first, every single person that made a silk using prims after the first person did is just copying their idea and concept. It would take a lot more for someone to be copying a silk, IMO, from the clothing textures to the textures on the silk prims themselves.

No matter how anyone protests when something similar comes out, its going to happen and without any copying of others work. The hardest part is dealing with someone who is more well known putting out their accusations of Theif, and others just instantly believing them without looking into the situation themselves. Something every new and upcoming designer may have to deal with at one point or another.

hehe this is a good point - is only so many ways to arrainge what in the most modest case is a cut up curtain sheer -
And in the less modest a napkin sized cut of silk.

I'd like to see this silk maker try to do anything about it. As others have stated, there are LOTS of silks in SL that look pretty much alike, even though they're all 'original' creations. As I tend to do in these cases, I recommend you go to a third-party forum like Second Citizen where you can name names so people who care about this stuff can avoid buying from people like your competitor.

Also, to include pics at this forum you need to first upload the images to a hosting site like ImageShack and then embed them into your post with the {IMG}imageurl{/IMG} tag (but replace the curly braces with [] brackets). Second Citizen lets up upload pics as attachments though.

(ImageShack is actually a good place to go for pics here, because they automatically generate the tags you need to embed pics in vBulletin forums like this one.)