Way off topic, but it's Real Life...

I won't comment on that except if you say to me that you will get a gun you have home and go overseas defend that people. Oh wait... sorry... most of them don't have oil, do they? or your dearest president would have sent some more innocent do your job!


Wrong! I don't have guns, sorry to disappoint you. I used them as professional when i had to, 'cause in my country, at the time, military service was obligatory by law.

@Lindal
Yes... accidents happen. I need doors? sure! can some innocent person be killed by a door i own? not likely. I need a car? Sure. Can i kill an innocent person using it? It can happen no matter how careful i am but that's the point. No matter how much careful you are or trained (so you say, because the reality is this... there is no real training to fire a gun against one person, any instructor that ever had to do it can tell you exactly this!) accidents may happen and the only way you have to minimize the risk is not taking it. Where do you keep your gun? Hided in a place any kid can't reach it? Cool... if you get assaulted you tell the criminal - "wait a second please... i have my gun hided in a safe place i need to go get it so I can defend myself from you". Or do you kept it near but keep the bullets in a different place? oh cool "please mr.criminal... gimme a minute while i load my gun!"
I give you those 2 options because i don't believe anyone with 2 centimeters of good sense would leave a loaded gun in a place easily reachable!


YEAHHHHH! Sure!!! Lets go folks... everybody grab your own gun and and let's restart the old farwest movies. We kill everybody and then police comes and solves the crimes... hummm... wait... there is no crime... we were all armed so all was in self defense!

1) These people would not have needed our protection if they could have protected themselves. Do you know Solzhenitsyn?

"And Solzhenitsyn laments that the citizens of St. Petersburg cowered behind their doors when the black vans pulled up at their apartment houses night after night to arrest their neighbors. If only the decent Russians had fought back, Solzhenitsyn says, if only they had ambushed some of these secret police thugs in the hallways of their apartments with knives and pickaxes and hammers, if only they had spiked the tires of the police vans while the thugs were in the apartments dragging out their victims, they could easily have overwhelmed Yagoda's forces and forced an end to the mass arrests. But they didn't fight back, and the arrests and liquidations continued.

Sounds like to me he would be in favor of an armed people defending themselves.


2) The Old West in America was much safer than most major American cities today.

3) The places in America with the most guns tend to be the safest and have the lowest crime rates. The reason is simple, the bad guys know that if they try something they might get shot.

The problem is that anyone can get shot if one day one model citizen drinks some too many beers or whiskey.
The problem of criminals or not criminals is a matter of social justice and that can't be solved with guns.
In a country like USA it would be allot better lees money wasted on missiles and allot more on education and social support.
But I guess that will never happen, right? When the persons that have the power to change things prefer the easy way... "the hell with it... i go out and just buy a gun!"

Keep thinking like that... we will see what the future reserves.

Actually, the police have a higher rate of shooting innocent victims than honest model citizens. The rate for the "trained professionals" is about double the rate for us peons.

As for social justice, that is a crock. I know plenty of people who were dirt poor and who never became criminals.

I find this principle very applicable to inter-departmental meetings.

You'd be amazed at how much faster committees come to consensus when I slap my Desert Eagle .44 on the meeting table.

Al Capone, wasn't it?

Where do I keep my guns, Rokas?
I keep them unloaded and locked away. Except my carry pistol. That is loaded and on my person. I do it this way to deal with the dilemma you described: how can you keep your guns out of the hands of unauthorized persons (whether that's your kids or a criminal), and still have a weapon available to deal with a Situation?

Drinking and firearms: They don't mix well. "Model citizens" understand this. I do not drink while I am armed, period.

Let's not bring global politics into the argument, please. We are talking about personal protection. What my country does with missiles and oil is a whole different topic. If you want to debate it, please do so in a different thread.

Like most anti-gun people I've met, you have an annoying tendency to set up straw men and to bring in irrelevant arguments. Let's stick to the facts.

Fact: There are armed criminals where I live.
Fact: Making guns illegal is not going to disarm those criminals. They're *already* willing to break the law, or they would not be criminals. QED.
Fact: The police will not arrive in time, in most cases, to prevent an armed assault.
Fact: Gun safety training and practice will prevent nearly all firearm "accidents".
Fact: A trained, armed, law-abiding citizen is not a threat to her neighbors. In many cases, such persons have been able to prevent a crime before the police can arrive.
Fact: A gun is the best counter to an armed criminal, especially for women.
Fact: An armed, law-abiding citizenry has been shown to be an effective deterrent to crime.

Your problem is that you are afraid of the wrong things. Drunken, gun-totin' idiots, deranged children, and guns themselves ("OMG! Get it away from me, it might go off!". That last one is the real problem, and it is why I said in my OP, and will continue to say:

Stop being afraid of guns, and stop being afraid.

Here's my two cents worth:

My husband and I are gun owners and lifetime members of the NRA. I grew up around guns and was taught from a young age how to shoot and be responsible with firearms, and I can shoot far more accurately than most men at the local range, and have won several marksmanship (markswomanship? nah... phooey on political correctness) awards in the past. My husband was a United States Navy SEAL for 12 years and as such has some of the best firearms training and know-how in the world. He has passed much of this on to me as well. We have around 25 firearms in our home for various purposes. These firearms are not dangerous, they have never gone out caused trouble with anyone, they sit in the gun case and never say or do anything threatening nor have they ever gone out and committed a crime; no, they are but inanimate objects that are incapable of doing anything without a human manipulating their controls.

People cry out about gun control, but they are sorely misguided in thinking that outlawing guns will stop violent crimes that involve the use of guns. Guess what people, passing laws that prohibit the ownership of guns only works to disarm LAW ABIDING CITIZENS. Criminals are criminals and don't follow the law. Criminals will always have a means of obtaining guns, essentially making them more powerful and free to victimize the innocent. Criminals are very much pro gun-control for this reason, it makes their job that much easier and safer.

When a government disarms it's people, they are no longer citizens, but become subjects, pure and simple. Here's a little known fact in the U.S., the Supreme Court ruled that the police do not have a duty to protect the individual. If it's not the police's job to protect us, and let's face it, they can't be everywhere at once, who is left to protect ourselves? We are responsible for our own safety and well being.

I live out in the county, and on average if law enforcement is called, it takes them anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and a half to respond to call. One night when my husband was gone on a trip, a man tried breaking into my house. What was I supposed to do? Ask the dangerous man to sit down and enjoy a nice cup of tea while we wait for the sheriff to arrive? I think not. As he bust through the door, he was immediately greeted with a .429" 300 grain Hornady XTP projectile traveling at magnum velocity. Had I not defended myself and my home with a firearm, chances are that I would not be here typing this today. Having been a rape victim in the past, there was no way in hades I was going to let that happen again. The intruder was carrying an illegally owned handgun and there was a high chance he would have used it were he given the chance, or done other unspeakable things to me had I not defended myself with a legally owned handgun.

An armed society is a polite society. There are thugs that like to harass people and steal and destroy their property in this rural community. They are constantly in and out of jail for preying on the same people who choose to allow themselves to be victimized by these miscreants. They tried to do the same to us one time. When they discovered we as landowners and firearm owners would not put up with their attempted destruction of our property, they chose to never set foot on our land again. Why? They value their lives. They know we own guns and aren't afraid to defend ourselves with them, therefor they do not bother us.

Now maybe other folks choose not to defend themselves with firearms and that's all well and fine if they choose to be easier prey to criminals. If they choose not to own firearms that's their right, but don't try and tell me I shouldn't be allowed to own a gun just because you don't like them. Having recently had one of my arms amputated, my self defense options are even more limited. Chances of me boxing or wrestling my small frame to safety from the grasp of a much bigger and more powerful man are quite slim, even more so now. If anything, my reliance on protecting myself with the revolver I keep on my person at all times is even more important now. I have had a concealed carry permit for several years now, I legally carry a handgun on me at all times when I go out in public.

I will repeat, making guns illegal only disarms law abiding citizens. Criminals will always have a way to obtain guns illegally. Should it come to the point that it becomes illegal for me to own a gun, then I shall become a criminal. I refuse to be an unarmed victim ever again.

I will add however, that using a gun in self defense should always be a last resort. Use your brain and don't put yourself knowingly in situations that are dangerous. Take self defense courses, learn to be aware of your surroundings at all time, learn to keep tabs on and keep a safe distance from anyone that looks or behaves oddly. Trust your gut instinct that if that guy creeps you out, don't let him get near you. But should you be presented with a situation where your safety or life is at stake, don't hesitate to defend yourself with whatever means is at your disposal.

I'm going to nip this one in the bud right here and now.

There are a few reasons school shootings happen. Blaming it on legal gun ownership is just ignorant. Making guns illegal is not the solution either. Kids get their guns via two methods: They either buy them via the "black market" illegally the same way a criminal would, or they steal them. Either way, they are obtaining them illegally.

Now here's the deal. You can either choose to blame legal gun ownership on it like you seem to want to, or you can blame the root of the problem: Bad Parenting and ignorant laws that prevent a parent from disciplining a child. Today, a parent can't even spank their child without the fear of being imprisoned or having their child taken away from them. Today's youths have not near the amount of discipline and responsibility taught to them because either parents are too lazy to teach their kids right from wrong, or there are laws in place preventing the parent from doing their duty.

When I was growing up, you NEVER heard of school shootings. Why is this important? Because back then we had less strict gun laws and no worries about kids being taken away from their parents for them using corporal punishment. When I was growing up my parents had guns in the house. They weren't locked away in a safe, they were kept in the open on a gun rack, and a loaded revolver in dad's nightstand. Even us kids knew where the guns and ammo were and had free access to them. Did we touch them? Hell no! We were taught by our parents to respect guns and learned gun safety. We knew if we so much as touched a gun without permission we'd have had that leather strap taken to us until we wouldn't be able to sit down for a week.

So do we blame guns, or do we blame the root cause? It's easier to blame an inanimate object than to place the blame where it belongs, faulty parenting laws and even faultier parenting. Lack of counseling provided to troubled children due to high costs is also an issue, so is the gang mentality being spread through inner-city areas. Where does it all stem from? Not from legal gun ownership, it stems from other deeper roots, and those are the causes that must be addressed instead of just taking the easy way out and blaming it on legal gun ownership.

School grounds in the United States are deemed as gun-free zones, meaning it's illegal to posses a firearm on school grounds. Since it's illegal to posses a gun on school grounds, why are there school shootings? Think about it. Making gun possession illegal does not solve the problem. If teachers were instead allowed to carry guns, many of these mass killings could have been prevented, pure and simple. Like it or not, that's the hard dirty reality of it.

Wonderfully said, Garrett. I am tired of people, no matter where they live judging and casting aspersions on another countries laws, way of life or cultural traditions based solely on what they see from the "Drive By Media". I agree 100% with what you just said.



Not surprising since the same Leftists responsible for fostering the belief that making guns illegal wil solve these problems are the same ones who have created the current climate that makes parenting so difficult.

I too grew up in a house where guns were present, have law enforcenment members in the family. We were all taught how they were used, and to respect their dangers. With this and many other things, the Spectre of Dad's belt was enough to keep us in line.

Don't get me started on the liberal propaganda and other biased rubbish the mass media tries to force down everyone's throat, especially the largest media outlets such as Communist News Network, otherwise known as CNN.

One would think so, but I can find no authoritative source that doesn't place them in DeNiro's mouth in "The Untouchables". Kudos to David Mamet for inventing history.

On an unrelated topic, I'd be interested in watching the Communist News Network, but cannot find any listings for it.

It used to be known as the Clinton News Network at one time.

Do you subscribe to the Imaginary package with your television provider? It costs $e^-i∏ but I find it is worth it.

Truthfully, for a long time I believed in my right to own firearms but never really felt the need to actually own one. Then, our wonderful politicians and a variety of other folks decided that they should start getting more serious about passing laws to keep me from owning a gun. I am now highly ticked off at my government and decided that it was time I exercised my rights. So I have recently bought a handgun and a rifle and I have my first gun class in 2 weeks. And I have every intention of also getting a concealed carry permit.

The right to bear arms is so that I can fight my government in case they decide to oppress me. I firmly believe in that right.

But I thought Senator Clinton loved shooting guns.

Maybe this week she does.

Crap. You have to be squishy to even entertain the IDEA that women shouldnt be armed. Most of the chix i know r

lol Malachi! Indeed indeed, but if you need a quicker result, pull the pin on a grenade, stick on the table, and the meeting is over in like... 3 seconds.

I think it got taken over by the Maoists recently, but the good news is that every subscription now comes with free beetroot Borsch.

(sniped)


I got mugged at gun point in Italy, Catania in fact. Guns are highly controled there.
I was in a situation where I was definatly not thinking. In fact, the muggers stole the liter bottle of Portugese wine I was drinking while walking down the street. Fortunatly for me, they did not have the wherewithall to use their weapon when I started throwing punches.
They were a couple of low life wimps. Were guns not under such strict control in Italy, and they thought that there was a chance that their victim would be armed, I am sure they would not have attempted anything. After all, they had to use a gun to threaten a guy that was barely able to walk from all the alchohol ingestion! I definatly would not have been carrying at that time, were it even legal, but the thought that someone would be, I beleive, would have been enough of a deternt to them.
In the end, I had some bumps, bruises and cuts from getting pistol whipped, and they had a couple of fat lips, black eyes, and broken glasses.

Gun control failed miserably and not using common sense was a handy catalyst to the situation too. So for anyone out there jsut as a tip, dont get snot slinging drunk and accept help from two strangers at 2AM. They will steal your wine!

On the off chance that those pansies are reading this....look me up some time, I'd "love" to meet you again....maybe in an open field somewhere...you know, out in the great outdoors....noone around to disturb the "reunion" for miles and miles and miles.......

lol ahahahhahah =)

The last time I saw something similar was at a marae (meeting place). A guy slapped a mere (warclub) down and stated that he had had enough of the pakeha (white man) ways; that this was a maori (native new zealander) hui (meeting) and that as far as he was concerned he was going to deal with the matter in that way.

The hui organiser rose to his feet, walked over, picked up the mere and belted the guy over the head, knocking him to the ground with a split skull and blood all over the show. And then the hui organiser sat back down. Kia ora =)

Someone said that maybe they should call an ambulance and the hui organiser quietly said that the guy probably wouldn't like that, an ambulance being a pakeha thing. That the guy's mana (honour) needed to be respected. Kia ora again =)

So the guy was hauled off to the kitchens where a kuia (old woman) wrapped his head in a poultice. His own family left him there to recover as best he could. Mana, again =)

Brilliantly said Lindal !!

I have much to say on this subject as well, but it's one of those debates that can go on endlessly. I too am an NRA member, and have long seen the benefit to law-abiding citizens in any country, retaining the right to carry fireams. I've used weapons in my professional life as well, military, law enforcement, and those experiences only reaffirmed my belief that any law-abiding citizen should be able to own and carry firearms, regardless of what country you live in. Crime will always occur, both violent and non-violent crimes, and those that would commit such crimes would not be phased by any type of restrictions on gun control. Personally, I'd rather be preapared.