Proposal to make released land go to Linden rather than public

Before version 1.5, when a resident decided not to tier up, or quit the
game, or manually set land to be released, the land went public. This
meant that anyone could buy the land for L$1 per meter, far below market
rate. As a result, some residents created scanners that alerted them
whenever public land appears and made a profit by buying and reselling it.

With 1.5, we closed most of the exploit. Land that used to go public
when a user decided not to tier up, or quit the game, now converts to
Governor-owned to be auctioned - for parcels 512 and larger. However, if
a user hits the Release Land button, and confirms a warning screen, the
land still goes public. In the cases of accidental release, Linden
really can't do anything about it after someone else buys the land.

We would like your feedback on the idea of having these accidental
releases of 512 meters or more going to Linden ownership. This would
make it possible for Lindens to return the land in case of accidents.
Eventually this land would be auctioned if not returned to the owner.

It doesn't seem fun or fair to encourage those with scanners to have an
advantage over those who don't. We chose the 512 meters cut-off because it
takes staff time to put parcels through the auction system and so we
want to focus on parcels of meaningful size.

You can check this related thread for background.

Thank you for your interest. Please let us know what you think.

I think the same thing should happen with released land. It should go to auction.

HOWEVER

The person who released it should have the option to buy it back within a short period of time, in case they made a mistake. Give them perhaps 24 hours to re-claim the land before putting it back into the auction system.

When released, set the For Sale to field to the person who just released it. The amount could be $0 or 1/m depending on if you want to discourage people from using this as a temporary way to swap land.

Ok. The land should go to Linden no matter the size.

The land should go into a holding state for a short amount of time in which the previous owner can change his mind (but the 'holding state' still counts for land tiers). This avoids the necessity of arranging things with Lindens.

sounds great Haney

I agree with the reversion hold. This REALLY would solve the problem of 'accidentally released land'.

I also believe it should be all land, not just 512+. This will avoid land fragmentation, and I don't see the reason for it to only be 512+.

I believe that at auction, people WOULD bid on <512 plots. Especially if it is adjacent to their land. I know I would.

I support this.
No land release button. We get many live help calls from newbies who did this when they wanted to sell their land.
[If the land has to be released] the land should go back to LL for re-auctioning, or to be made into new First Land, at their discretion.

Edit: added the bracketed part to actually make sense

agreed.

fen-

i support this change. it will remove the risks from opening land managment tools for land owners.

edit:
and i support the ideas proposed in the post directly below.

Yeah this button is awfully tempting too at times. It does this nasty sound of "click me! click me!" everytime we look at it!

Well, I'd agree on this proposal. With a double-check popup or something, telling what exactly will happen to the land before the person accepts (I'm not sure if there's one - the hell if I'm goign to try, heh!). And a possib ility of re-buying the land, perhaps also with a window? ("You've just released this land! You now have 1 minute to buy it again before it goes to Linden land blah-blah"

I myself have helped several newbies that were 'trapped' over their tier with too much land and a 'sale pending' they thought they could reverse through releasing the land; but could the cause of this possibly be something other than just the fact that the button exists? The underlying problem that causes each of these is a lack of newbie education - and a extremely hands-off stance toward new players. Usually people just dont know because no one has bothered to help them learn the game. At least when I was a newbie when a new person logs into SL for the first time they ended up in an unfamiliar 'welcome area' surrounded by mostly other newbies that havent yet learned to fly =P How can they be expected to know about things like releasing land and tier fees - or even things like not to use physics and the peculiarities of this 3D modelling system? A newb event? I think its time LL got off their behinds and started proactively bringing newbies into the world. Changing permissions so that newbs can 'learn from' the existing world by hacking it rather than being taught or helped is an idea, but players shouldnt be carrying the burden of newbies incompitence and either should the UI.

I don't understand the assumption that Linden's "can't" help at the point another player has bought the land, as it would be a SIMPLE MATTER to instead change your own powers to encompass such a thing. What happened to binding arbitration now?

I have only released land on one occasion, however at that time i did find it useful for the 16-32m2 piece that i released and would appreciate the functionality not being completely removed for sitations like these. I think the suggestion that the power be given to the original release-ee to rebuy the land during a short grace period would be sufficient to fix the majority of the problems, especially combined with my suggestion above.


It doesn't seem fun or fair to encourage those with scanners


How long has this system currently been in play? ^_^
Ya, right. Im sure thats it.

I support land going directly to auctions..
There, I said it; public land shouldn't exist anymore. My, we've come far... -_-

I think that all land released should go back to the Lindens - including plots smaller than 512 meters. . .

You seem to be expressing an interest in eliminating land scanners, and allowing ANY land whatsoever to go public will still encourage there proliferation.

I think this is a great idea. But it needs one more obsure feature. If you release the land then claim it back, then release it again all in 24 hours, the timer doesn't reset. This way it will keep people from using this to avoid tiering up. The 24 hour timer should be obvious for the person releasing the land but not to others.

Agreed but with Strife Onizuka's additions

I disagree completely.
I think all released land should stay released.
I do not think any released land should revert to Linden-owned and go to auction.
So what if people buy it at L$1 per m2 and sell it higher. There's enough land out there that isn't selling very fast and prices are decreasing.


LL already sets aside 512m2 plots for newbies to buy, so why the fuss over some people buying land they see free? Sure it makes for some scarcity, but it wouldn't be valuable if there wasn't a demand for it.

I'll repost the idea proposal I've been posting for several weeks now all over this forum:

All these issues with the Release Land... button could be EASILY avoided if the following idea was put in place:

Upon clicking Release Land... the land goes into "holding" mode, in this mode only the previous owner of the plot can purchase it (it appears public to that user only, all other users see the land as still owned by the previous owner), land remains in holding for say 24 hours. At 12 hours an email is sent to the previous owner informing them they have x ammount of hours left to reclaim their land or it will be put on auction. At the end of 24 hours the land is then put into auction.

This would make public land non-existant.

You could still transfer ownership by selling it for 0L$ if you wished (effectivley "public" land for a directed user, or "public" land for anyone if a name isn't set).

Also you could add on that when the user clicks Release Land... they must first go to the website to actualy confirm they want to put the land into "holding" mode (we have to confirm to buy land, why not confirm to release it?). Or they can approve for it to be directly into the auction system right then and there (be sure to have a long explination on what exactly this means).

----

Addition onto that: for clarification, land in Holding would still count toward your land allotment, this is to avoid users from putting land into holding for non-legit reasons. The land would only be released from your allotment when it was either approved by you to be put on the auction block or when the holding time runs out.

I would also add a "Sell Land To Auction" button that allowed you to put up your own land for auction and get the money from it (confirmation on webpage would be needed).

I also like Strife's addition of having to wait and not being able to have the same plot in holding twice or more in a row.

Another option to add on would be to only allow one plot per person to be in "holding". They could still put up as many plots as they want for auction (as with my suggestion they get to put it up directly for auction, or put into holding).

All this makes things more complicated, sure, but when land which == USD is at stake, you want it to be harder to lose something of value than accidently clicking a button.

Edit: to add last sentance.

ACK! Hold on!

I just realized...

You guys need to have a provision for themed communities!

The entire sim of Seacliff was purchased as a whole by one person, I believe. Or several people pooled their money and bought it as a whole. The agreement amongst those the land was split was that the entire sim would remain 'natural', AND that the land would RETURN to the original purchasers upon its release!

Something needs to be set up for places like Darkwood, Seacliff, Slate, and other such things.

Hell, while you're at it, why not set up a thing where entire sims can apply for 'Community Status' or somesuch so there's an official status for certain sims, so there isn't ever any confusion.

What's that you want?! A functional group sytem?!

What an idea! I agree. GL =)

I support the proposal.

I remember when I was a newbie, and wanted to get rid of my 512m. You know why? Because 512meters is crap. You can barely build there! And not many people go out looking for a 512 unless they are extremely good with prims, and can turn an enitre room into a texture, or something of the like. 512 m is ok for newbies, but I myself tired of that land, and moved up to a 1024 as fast as I could. It's very hard to get rid of your 512 meters of land because it really is very small, and removing the release land button would be bad, because you would have to tier off the land with whatever you were about to buy.



My point:

Do not completely remove the release land button, and allow us to choose if we want to hold the land or not.

hello! did you miss the statement where she explained it cost them money to handle these pieces of land, the land under 512 isnt worth their time, but over 512 and they are happy to re-auction it so that THEY, I mean LL makes all the profit?

If someone releases land they typically realize it and can buy it back, and if not they will when it is realeased, and say damn I better buy that back or someone else will. lesson learned

people buying land from land scanners isnt much different from searching for land in the for sale list. or is it not listed? if not, list it to take out the advantage.

i think giving the person who released it a 24 hour grace period would be grounds for abuse, i will just release my land when i need some tier, till other land sells then use the grace to cover it. but there should be maby a 12 hour or less window that it remains in limbo

nothing teaches you better then releasing land and loosing it. If it happens more then a coule times your just not going ot learn.

but like deklax said maby there should be more information provided to the players and more noobie events to teach these things, we cant expect the players themselves to teach every new person everything, where is the goverment then? but they will be happy to take the released land and sell it themselves instead of letting the players who teach the real lessons make the money? seems greedy to me

but on the same note land scanners suk, but if you own land in a sim who is to say you cant scan for land? add these public bits to the for sale list to even out the odds

if the button is being accidentaly pressed maybe its the fact that it is the least likely option to be used, yet its next to the most popular options, it seems the layout is flawed. Lets try something simple like moving the button to say somewhere else? and leaving the public land as it is, if the payer does not wish to sell it and wants to release it that shouldnt give the "government" the ownership. this would also reduce the load on the lindens and maybe give them time to better educate their residents.

GO LINDENS i really do support you Haney, just not on this topic

I believe by now everyone is aware of my take on this but to clarify, Darn tootin I'd like to have land released back to owner if it's accidentally been released. It sure would've saved a lot of heartache and headache in my situation.

Thank you,

Trinity

Some of this I agree with like stopping people using land scanners, and taking land to auctions, tho i do miss the idea of public land thats been spoiled by greedy land barons and the general way that land has become all about greed not stewardship and management.

I DO NOT agree that if a player makes a MISTAKE that the land should go to lindens for auction. LOOK AT ALL THE TROUBLE AND UPSET THAT THIS HAS CAUSED MY FRIEND TRINITY WHO IS CURRENTLY IN THIS POSITION IN OUR long owned and cared for sim.

IT's APPALING, HANEY, THAT THE LINDENS DO NOT CARE AT ALL ENOUGH ABOUT ' MISTAKES' to actually work with the player to STOP the WHOLE IDEA of mistake like this happening at all. ( GET RID of this land release button or make it absolutely hard to make mistakes, ESPECIALLY with complication sof group land transfer)

IF someone makes a GENUINE mistake like this and ends up with their home plot stripped f their house and all they made, and their land up for auction to greedy shallow barons and greedy players taking advantage, its APALLING that you LINDENS do not rectify and do not help this person.

Over this issue in Tehama, I am very upset that LIndens have ignored my friend's genuine mistake and propose to auction her land over her head KNOWING that she did this by mistake in group transferring and REFUSING to help her. I am totally disgusted bny this and wonder what would happen to ME with all my land if i did something like that .

GET this sorted Lindens, this is the FIRST time in over a year that I have felt angry and sick paying my $195 a month to you knowing that this is the way you would behave towards decent player who makes a mistake on land this way. IT IS EXPECTED of you by MANY MANY people that you have some DECENCY and sort this person's problem and give them her land back take it OUT of auction

If you do not, many many will lose respect for you. Do not only think of ur own greed and cover this up with some technical suggestion about land scanning.

Lindens or anyone else should NOT profit from player mistakes that is NOT what your role is. YOu are here to respect and help people who pay money to you each month.

FIX this so accidents dont happen, and when they do LISTEN, CARE and correct them for your supposedly valued customer.

Which is, I'm sorry, utter bullshit. If the system of auctioning land is *that* labor intensive, then they need to seriously re-work their system. It should involve (Idealy) no linden intervention whatsoever... It should all be automated. At most, perhaps a few clicks. As for the whole "Well nobody is paying for them for that period of time"... Time doesn't matter. People are billed only once a month, at most. As long as you dont have that land on the auction block for 2 months (Hah!), no money is lost... It doesn't matter who pays the money at the end of the month.

And the bandwidth cost for a few extra auction pages is going to be infintesimal compared to what LL already pays for bandwidth.



The whole problem is that far to often people *don't* realize it has happened. That's what the issue is to begin with.



It is a lot different. The problem with landscanners is threefold (Server resources, issues of placement, and land-claiming), but to just deal with land-claiming for a moment... Land scanners were capable of producing a response time measured in *seconds* instead of minutes or hours. Literaly, there were cases of people who released land by mistake, *knew* they released land by mistake, and still weren't able to buy it all back before a scannner-baron bought up part of it.



You could give someone 72 hours even, it wouldn't matter, as long as you were smart and kept that land counting against their tier in the meantime. That would prevent loopholes like that. If the person needed to tier down in a hurry, just make a land-management function on the website, like how you have to tier up, that says "Dismiss waiting period" or something.



"Teaches" you what? That other players are assholes? Nobody needs to learn that more than they already know. There is *never* justification for getting your property stolen by mistake.

what kex said and thanks for asking